Unremitting - The key to giving melee the edge again.

[Zadtro]

To push your idea further...

 

I don't like the idea of using a mechanic from one spec to buff the others. Each stance should provide their own mechanics.

 

Soresu. Enable Crushing Blow AoE for 15s after leap (this is a nice buff to snap threat in PvE Jugg tank could use).

Shien. Unstoppable as we know it.

Shii-Cho. Leap and Obliterate increase damage reduction by an extra 20% for 3s. They don,t really need anti-kiting option but Rage is kinda squishy compared to the others Juggs and it can't hurt Fury.

Ataru. Make the Mara immune to movement imparing effects and increase his speed by 30% for 6s and grant 20% damage reduction. Unremittable in its current form would be way too much. Carnage would land a full Gore Ravage on about anything. It's way too much burst especially with the 6p.

Juyo. Being knocked back or stunned during the first six seconds after Leap resets Leap CD and grant 20% damage reduction for the next 4s. I think it would make an interresting mechanic instead of giving blanket immunity to the Mara.

 

And for Vengeance to replace Unstoppable in their tree.... Give them a 3s root on Shatter in Shien.

 

Interesting ideas. I like the idea of making form utilities.

 

I see how Ataru could go a bit mad for 4 secs, if it were to get immunity 2.5 secs then it could only use ravage/MS or go for devastating blast & viscous throw.

 

I just think with all the stuns and slows it would encourage more melee to have it as a shared utility.

 

Shii-cho jump in and get stunned a lot of the time, i like the sound of damage reduction because they do need to sit still a lot. A 10m leap doesn't help when ranged have 30-35m on you.

 

Juyo sounds good idea, but being rooted means you can't leap which may cause some issues but i like the sound of the reset.

[L-RANDLE]

The underlying problem with immunities is that there is zero counters to it. Giving it out to melee specs pretty much nullifies hehe counter play of kiting/dot specs. We would go right back to where it was when dot specs were abysmal.

 

 

The answer is this: The only legit counter to movement impairment as a melee class should only be stronger DR, or stronger outputs after.

 

Change UDR back to no health penalty, and buff crit rating 20%, if CC'd while active, for 6 sec

Make Cloak of Pain talent to, activate while stunned, base line, and add talent for stance

Juyo: Restore 2% health on damage returned

Ataru: Increase movement speed by 50%

Shi-Cho: Increase damage returned by 50%

 

 

Leave everything else as is, see where the chips fall.

[Ryuku-sama]

Interesting ideas. I like the idea of making form utilities.

 

I see how Ataru could go a bit mad for 4 secs, if it were to get immunity 2.5 secs then it could only use ravage/MS or go for devastating blast & viscous throw.

 

I just think with all the stuns and slows it would encourage more melee to have it as a shared utility.

 

Shii-cho jump in and get stunned a lot of the time, i like the sound of damage reduction because they do need to sit still a lot. A 10m leap doesn't help when ranged have 30-35m on you.

 

Juyo sounds good idea, but being rooted means you can't leap which may cause some issues but i like the sound of the reset.

 

Shii-Cho can do a lot of damage at 10m and is relatively immune to root with Obliterate. Giving it a stun immunity would be way too much.

 

Juyo would be vulnerable to roots but that's the whole idea. Mara already have decent root-breaker utilities. No need to add to it for Juyo... 3.0 changed it a lot. Now about 40% of Juyo damage is coming from their DoTs and they are rather long lasting. Roots shouldn't be as much of a problem for them as they were in 2.x.

 

RANDLE. I suggest you read my own suggestion about Unstoppable... I only give two blanket immunity.. Vengeance (stun and physics) and Carnage (movement impairing). Shii-Cho gets extra defense and Juyo get a CD reset on stuns and physics.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Ryuku-sama

[L-RANDLE]

I don't agree with any immunity. It screws up the counter play. These classes should have a weakness to be exploited, and very few "outs" against certain specs, but also have a significant advantage if their movement is impaired.

 

Then your UDR becomes more situational. Enemies think twice before spamming a root/snare. Heaven forbid we got stack of 2% damage while rooted or snared.

 

That would be proper counter play. Immunities should be limited to turret based casting classes.

[Ld-Siris]

First of all a carnage's ravage only does half the dmg it did pre 3.0. A vengeance jugg's does more damage so that is not what you need to worry about. And if carnage marauders are still doing it that way in 60 PVP then they aren't really a threat any way. I can also argued that my arsenal mercs burst is the same as carnage burst with primal shot, heat seekers, and railshot, and the Merc is range.

 

Now that that is out of the way to the guy that said that all classes have a hard to deal with classes. Which may be try but tell me which class isn't for the marader. Now snipers have always been the anticlass for marauders because the have the perfect set of tools to do so. But now all classes have more than to keep marader a shut down.

 

Juggs - does more dmg with either spec, 3 life bars, push/awe/choke saber ward, 30m root.

 

Sorcs - cmon we all know what sorcs got.

 

Sin - pretty sure we know this as well. And especially deception can kill a marauder faster.

 

OP - FB, hard stun, roots, slows, immunity to white dmg and purge, self heal, stealth, roll.

 

Sniper - as I said anti class

 

PT - lol speed, all 10m, 2 stuns KO, rocket heal, HO. And let's be real AP now is burst king.

 

Merc - net, KO, HO knock back, stun, soft stun, self heals (nerfed even I am mad about merc self heals)

 

The marauder really doesn't have any up on any class ms no class really has that much trouble dealing marauders except maybe other marauders. And every body is afraid of carnage getting unstoppable even tho burst is less now than prior to 3.0 and AP PTs running around. Now, marauders are a pure offensive class and giving them ore DCDs kinda defeats the purpose of playing them. It's why it's my favorite class. However, they do need to fix the marauders opportunity to do dmg. I have always thought they should get a second closer.

 

Now, really for the heroic utilities you can get pred but then you have to have the stacks to use it and you have to sacrifice berserk. And you have to make the choice really between pred, camo break, and brooding. Doesn't seem fair at all.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Ld-Siris

[Galothor]

"Giving the melees the edge again" ... "AGAIN"??????? They always had an edge over ranged classes!

 

Melees (except for maras) rape ranged classes so hard that they die twice again on respawning!

Melees are really doing fine against ranged classes. It might be annoying to get rooted, but is getting charged at or that rofl-roll that also grants immunity. Besides, roots and slows work both ways. They also prevent ranged classes from escaping the melees.

 

And lets face it:

Juggs get immunity after charging, or an additional charge that can be used in root. To to mention active charge cd reduction.

PTs get Hydraulic Overrides which gives them an insane amount of speed and immunity.

Operatives get their rofl-roll-immunity, which makes them immune to both cc and damage.

Sins get root break on Force Speed, 12sec immunity on Deflection, 5 sec immunity, another 2 sec immunity.

The only one who might need a little bit extra is the mara as his anti root/slow/knockback capabilities are not on par with the other classes (though some of them are ridiculously overtuned anyways).

[foxmob]

Unbound, removes movement impairing effects on predation. Expunge, removes cleansable effects, read roots, on force camo. Force charge and oblit remove root. When exactly were you planning on being rooted just wondering.

 

roots and snares. that's like 99% of combat. most classes snare with basic roto attacks (don't even have to waste a gcd). everybody roots. I would never waste force camo on a root, personally. it's currently the best dcd for mara. but iunno. to each his own. wasn't aware of leap breaking root, but I know oblit does

[MarcoMontana]

Roots not affecting the resolve bar is my biggest problem with melee. Roots essentially remove melee from the game without any diminishing returns.

 

Exactly, imagine being able to silence those Sorcerers? The complaints would be unworldly

[Galothor]

Exactly, imagine being able to silence those Sorcerers? The complaints would be unworldly

 

Yeah or to prevent those operatives and scoundrels from rofl-rolling to immunity and beyond.

[Surbatu]

Sins, Powertechs and Jugs - ALL ARE MELEE. What the *** edge again you want???

 

The only class that is not great now is mara and they have already said they are going to fix it before mercs.

 

With all cooldowns that jugs have you want the stun immun? Heal to full and reflect (that reflects most of stuns btw) are not enough for you? Da hell you noob melees, l2p you are op as hell already.

[Surbatu]

Roots not affecting the resolve bar is my biggest problem with melee. Roots essentially remove melee from the game without any diminishing returns.

 

Melee?? MELEE??? Does it removes sins or powertechs? Jugs???

 

http://oi61.tinypic.com/jfg1o9.jpg

 

Use your brain ffs.

[AdamLKvist]

Melee?? MELEE??? Does it removes sins or powertechs? Jugs???

 

http://oi61.tinypic.com/jfg1o9.jpg

 

Use your brain ffs.

 

Unfortunately that utility is pretty gimped, it doesnt cleanse already applied roots which makes it proactive only. While a decent utility its way too weak to be a heroic unfortunately.

[Surbatu]

Unfortunately that utility is pretty gimped, it doesnt cleanse already applied roots which makes it proactive only. While a decent utility its way too weak to be a heroic unfortunately.

 

Omg you want discipline that cleanse, gives immune and 50% speed, maybe +50% damage too, how about summon mega rancor to fight for you? Jeez you JEDAAAAI are amazing.

[AdamLKvist]

Omg you want discipline that cleanse, gives immune and 50% speed, maybe +50% damage too, how about summon mega rancor to fight for you? Jeez you JEDAAAAI are amazing.

 

You mean like the hold the line thats baseline with pretty low downtime? Well, for a heroic point on an ability with 1m cd. Uhm. Yes?

 

Edit: I guess I need to add this because you're obviously taking this too personal. I dont disagree with you, out of all the melee specs its really only mara that needs help. (Operatives need a better way on a lower CD to get rid of the plethora of roots as well). Its just that your example, your counter argument was bad.

Edited January 28, 2015 by AdamLKvist

[UglyStik]

Roots not affecting the resolve bar is my biggest problem with melee. Roots essentially remove melee from the game without any diminishing returns.

 

 

I only play melee and this is a l2p issue. Roots, mez, etc.

 

It is a give and take type of thing, do you want a healers/anyone's resolve bar to fill up when you spam force freeze? Do you even have force freeze keybinded?

[Surbatu]

Edit: I guess I need to add this because you're obviously taking this too personal.

Nah it's just my temper

 

You mean like the hold the line thats baseline with pretty low downtime? Well, for a heroic point on an ability with 1m cd. Uhm. Yes?

Can mercs heal to full while being focused? Can they reflect all **** for 5 secs? If you fight the person that can play you will be stunned just the moment you used hold the line and the only breaker that mecrs have is on 2 mins cooldown. And you will die in several seconds. Because you can do NOTHING. Yea tell me about mercs def cooldowns more pls!

[AdamLKvist]

Nah it's just my temper

 

 

Can mercs heal to full while being focused? Can they reflect all **** for 5 secs? If you fight the person that can play you will be stunned just the moment you used hold the line and the only breaker that mecrs have is on 2 mins cooldown. And you will die in several seconds. Because you can do NOTHING. Yea tell me about mercs def cooldowns more pls!

 

No one is comparing that CD to mercs.

 

Does that utility need to cleanse already applied roots to be viable? Yes. Bioware forcing classes to give up DEFENSIVE cds for offensive purposes needs to stop. Its ****.

 

Does mercs need help? Yes. Again, no argument here.

[Surbatu]

Yea yea it's probably just a bug but if they'd fix that Jugs will be on par with sins (at least 1vs1).

 

I see it like this: shoulder cannon nerfed, sins dot spreading nerfed, Rage Jugs with hold the line are new immortal powertechs. And buffed maras of cause. Will be "fun". Even sorcs will become meh.

[Dras_Keto]

They need to reduce the amount of CC in this game, not give more classes more ways to ignore it. If you give marauders unstoppable/unremitting/whatever it is (which they frankly need in this current game climate) then all of a sudden the QQ will start up from other people and they will get new ccs and other crap.... etc etc

 

It becomes an absurd arms race (frankly, I think its already at that point..).

 

Of course, for anything like the above to actually work, they would have to completely redesign things... and they wont do that, so, basically, things are only going to get worse until people get so fed up of the absurdity that they just stop playing.

[AdamLKvist]

They need to reduce the amount of CC in this game, not give more classes more ways to ignore it. If you give marauders unstoppable/unremitting/whatever it is (which they frankly need in this current game climate) then all of a sudden the QQ will start up from other people and they will get new ccs and other crap.... etc etc

 

It becomes an absurd arms race (frankly, I think its already at that point..).

 

Of course, for anything like the above to actually work, they would have to completely redesign things... and they wont do that, so, basically, things are only going to get worse until people get so fed up of the absurdity that they just stop playing.

 

In your world what would counterplay look like? Praying to the gods that they balanced the classes good enough, so much so that you're 100% certain to win if you're better than the other player? Even though its merely a DPS race?

 

While I see your point it wouldnt work. This game started with too little CC, no way to shutdown melees... Finally ranged are becoming true ranged classes and here we are...

[RodneyMcNeely]

I really don't like the idea of giving Unremitting to anyone other than Vigilance/Vengeance. It's a good gimmick, and it makes that spec unique.

 

As far as I can tell, the only melee class that needs the help is Marauder/Sentinel. The meta has moved on, and many classes are in a really good place. Some need to be downtuned (I'm looking at you Hatred/Serenity) but I don't think the solution is blanket nerfs.

 

I think Sent/Mara damage is good, it just needs a few mobility/survivability tweaks. I'm learning that the hard way by leveling a Combat Sentinel myself.

 

I don't think they need a stun immunity. I DO think they could use the same 30-second reduction to Resolute that Guardians get. And I think that defensive CDs need to be tweaked. As it is, I find Guarded by the Force about as useful as mammary glands on a male swine. But, that said, I would have no idea how to fix it.

 

I would love to see a targeted area AoE leap for Sentinels, since Guardians get Guardian Leap.

 

Or maybe a pull?

 

I dunno. I'm just spit-balling here. What do y'all think?

 

[funkiestj]

I really don't like the idea of giving Unremitting to anyone other than Vigilance/Vengeance. It's a good gimmick, and it makes that spec unique.

 

As far as I can tell, the only melee class that needs the help is Marauder/Sentinel. The meta has moved on, and many classes are in a really good place. Some need to be downtuned (I'm looking at you Hatred/Serenity) but I don't think the solution is blanket nerfs.

 

agree on unremitting.

 

I've had my guardian/jugg rooted into a coma. Presumably the solution is for a healer to cleanse the root (they can do this, right?) but I haven't seen that happening for me.

 

despite leaps, against a coordinated sage/shadow team I've had my guardian, marauder and operative rooted 4 or more times in a row (if I get 0, 1 or 2 hits in before being rooted I count that as consecutive roots).

 

I need to get back on my healer and try cleaning roots for melee.

[AdamLKvist]

agree on unremitting.

 

I've had my guardian/jugg rooted into a coma. Presumably the solution is for a healer to cleanse the root (they can do this, right?) but I haven't seen that happening for me.

 

despite leaps, against a coordinated sage/shadow team I've had my guardian, marauder and operative rooted 4 or more times in a row (if I get 0, 1 or 2 hits in before being rooted I count that as consecutive roots).

 

I need to get back on my healer and try cleaning roots for melee.

 

They "can" but the debuffs applied by various specs are cleansable as well and since you can only cleanse two debuffs per cleanse that becomes a problem. You see, the CC, the hardstun, the root? You wont be able to cleanse them as soon as your ally has two cleanseable debuffs applied. Which means you can NEVER cleanse an ally (pretty much)

 

Their new-envisioned system is horrible because they didnt think the debuffs being cleanseable through (first applied , first cleansed system really destroys any chance of a good cleanse)

[funkiestj]

They "can" but the debuffs applied by various specs are cleansable as well and since you can only cleanse two debuffs per cleanse that becomes a problem. You see, the CC, the hardstun, the root? You wont be able to cleanse them as soon as your ally has two cleanseable debuffs applied. Which means you can NEVER cleanse an ally (pretty much)

 

Their new-envisioned system is horrible because they didnt think the debuffs being cleanseable through (first applied , first cleansed system really destroys any chance of a good cleanse)

 

Given that DOTs are uncleansable, what would folks say to make cleanse remove all removable effects rather than just 2? The CD on cleanse has been made longer ...

 

It would be cool if the solution to too many roots, no resolve like limit on roots was that a skillful healer could be guaranteed capable of removing some of them.

[Zadtro]

Yes giving out unremitting may make everything go a little mad but at the moment with all the cc, what is the point of being melee when 90% of warzones are ranged.

 

I find myself being the only guardian or mara in a warzone. It isn't fun jumping in alone, even with ranged on your side you are just focused constantly by a team of ranged classes. I don't blame them, with all the mez, slow, roots & stuns what reason is there to be melee?

 

Sins/shadows are not effected because they have enough ranged abilities to use, a root breaker and immunity to everything.

 

Yes it sounds like it would change things but at this point there needs to be some change, either less cc (every class has stuns) or cc immunity, especially towards the classes who only deal damage in melee range.

 

As a player who has always preferred melee and has tried all the ranged classes in the game, I still enjoy being melee, it just feels like a melee class should be able to get in close and stay near a ranged class but instead we jump and stunned or slowed or rooted or mezzed. So melee deserve a counter to this, a 2min breaker is useless and resolve doesn't effect rooting (I wish it did, i also wish resolve worked). Even on my guardian i couple of coordinated sin & sorc just stuck me in place for a good 8 secs and there was nothing i could do.