Unremitting - The key to giving melee the edge again.

[Zadtro]

There are a lot of stuns, roots, slows & mezz in pvp. Most players having to wait 4 secs before using a stun means players are thinking about it, which is good it makes for better more competitive pvp.

 

Most will probably disagree with giving Knights/warriors a shared heroic utility which is the unremitting talent given to vigilance/vengeance guardians/juggs discipline (the 4 sec immunity to stuns and movement effects after a leap).

 

At the moment all classes have a stun, makes being pure melee a pain unless you are 1 out of the the 6 knights/warrior specs. Obviously it should be a heroic utility like the sin/shadow 12 sec immunity to deflection because it is an amazing utility.

 

That is my suggestion, just wondering what others think about this?

[DsevenO]

Roots not affecting the resolve bar is my biggest problem with melee. Roots essentially remove melee from the game without any diminishing returns.

[madtycoon]

Unremitting is really well designed imo. It makes people have to think a little more when facing vigil. I like that.

 

Maybe I'm reading your suggestion wrong, but focus doesn't need this. They have zealous leap to break root. Tanks shouldn't have root breaks imo. That's why guardian is actually better mechanically for the game (tank-wise) than the other two. You can actually root them out of range of the guarded target.

 

Sentinels are the ones who have the problem with roots imo. It's too easy to root them. I don't know. Don't play one. But I can put them in long root chains on a sage. If anyone else had any kind of awareness like a gunslinger or another anything, two people with roots can chain one person without a root for a long time during white bar. It would be beyond stupid if roots respected resolve.

 

I don't like sentinel's camo root break. Don't like root breaks at all. There's no skill in using breaks. The skill is thinking ahead of the root and popping an immunity. Makes things more about reading your opponent and avoiding roots. Timing your ****. Would be good with sentinels having access to unremitting on leap (maybe every other leap) or giving them some sort of root immunity on something else if they lost the root break on camo. Stuff like this is why they should tier the utilities together instead of letting you grab anything. You should be able to choose one mobility utility, not multiple ones.

 

This also wouldn't be an issue if cleanse wasn't a ridiculously long cooldown. Team game. Cleanses should be required for melee to have full uptime. Because of the cooldown and all the raid debuffs that are floating around, it is a wasted global to cleanse most of the time.

[DsevenO]

I just want to make sure I read this right. You openly admit that melee (sentinels/assassins as per your example) can be chain rooted without diminishing effect, and followed that admission with the conclusion that roots respecting resolve would be "beyond stupid"? Just checking...those two statements did actually follow one another, yes?

[Juithtin]

Sentinels are the ones who have the problem with roots imo. It's too easy to root them. I don't know. Don't play one. But I can put them in long root chains on a sage. If anyone else had any kind of awareness like a gunslinger or another anything, two people with roots can chain one person without a root for a long time during white bar. It would be beyond stupid if roots respected resolve..

 

Maybe play one for a while, against a team stacked with Sorcs where every 2nd ability has some form of root/snare then come back.

 

Anyway, in terms of Unremitting for Sentinels, I wouldn't say no (hell, any form of Sentinel cc/root immunity I wouldn't say no). Only issue I see with this is it would be ridiculously op for Watchman/Annihilation, since you're usually popping Leap every 12s as part of your rotation. As stated previously, the biggest issue for Sentinels is snares/roots - so maybe have Force Leap grant a variant of Unremitting that grants immunity to snares, roots and push/pull for 4 seconds... then fix Zealous Ward to give cc immunity and a lowered cd

Edited January 27, 2015 by Juithtin

[ceazare]

I'd rather remove some slows and roots, especially rotational ones, from the game than give more immunities to classes.

[madtycoon]

I just want to make sure I read this right. You openly admit that melee (sentinels/assassins as per your example) can be chain rooted without diminishing effect, and followed that admission with the conclusion that roots respecting resolve would be "beyond stupid"? Just checking...those two statements did actually follow one another, yes?

 

Yes. Because if I play a sentinel (i don't). Roots are part of how I control/outplay other sentinels. Root kite during their cooldowns. Off root them when they are on my teammates. It would be how I peel during white bar, just like someone with a taunt can taunt during white bar.

 

Resolve protecting people too much only helps the mouth drooling, tunnel visioning morons. Everyone should be given a reasonable amount of tools to outplay incoming crowd control. They should have to manage those tools and the ones that do, won't sit CC in key parts of a fight.

 

Roots =/= a mez or stun. Even a sentinel has ranged attacks they can use while rooted.

[DsevenO]

Everyone should be given a reasonable amount of tools to outplay incoming crowd control. They should have to manage those tools and the ones that do, won't sit CC in key parts of a fight.

 

Roots =/= a mez or stun. Even a sentinel has ranged attacks they can use while rooted.

 

So you're doubling down on your backward logic then? You admit melee can be chain rooted, then claim that it shouldn't be affected by resolve, then claim that people should have reasonable tools to avoid ridiculous mechanics such as chain rooting, but then say that it's okay because, for example, a marauder has a saber throw (on a long cd). Wow...just wow.

 

And all this after using phrases like "beyond stupid" and "mouth drooling tunnel visioning morons". Awesome.

[DerSchneider]

Maybe play one for a while, against a team stacked with Sorcs where every 2nd ability has some form of root/snare then come back.

 

Anyway, in terms of Unremitting for Sentinels, I wouldn't say no (hell, any form of Sentinel cc/root immunity I wouldn't say no). Only issue I see with this is it would be ridiculously op for Watchman/Annihilation, since you're usually popping Leap every 12s as part of your rotation. As stated previously, the biggest issue for Sentinels is snares/roots - so maybe have Force Leap grant a variant of Unremitting that grants immunity to snares, roots and push/pull for 4 seconds... then fix Zealous Ward to give cc immunity and a lowered cd

 

Fuk watchman... Think about carnage with unstoppable vs poor mercs

[SOULCASTER]

There are a lot of stuns, roots, slows & mezz in pvp. Most players having to wait 4 secs before using a stun means players are thinking about it, which is good it makes for better more competitive pvp.

 

Most will probably disagree with giving Knights/warriors a shared heroic utility which is the unremitting talent given to vigilance/vengeance guardians/juggs discipline (the 4 sec immunity to stuns and movement effects after a leap).

 

At the moment all classes have a stun, makes being pure melee a pain unless you are 1 out of the the 6 knights/warrior specs. Obviously it should be a heroic utility like the sin/shadow 12 sec immunity to deflection because it is an amazing utility.

 

That is my suggestion, just wondering what others think about this?

 

Tank jugs and ''smash'' jugs do not need this ability. It would be a bad idea to allow them to get Unremitting.

[skarlson]

I just want to make sure I read this right. You openly admit that melee (sentinels/assassins as per your example) can be chain rooted without diminishing effect, and followed that admission with the conclusion that roots respecting resolve would be "beyond stupid"? Just checking...those two statements did actually follow one another, yes?

 

You clearly haven't thought this through. Giving you immunity to some classes only way of keeping you off them is like giving them a resolve bar to your damage once you do enough. That is just preposterous. You propose a circumstance whereby a class is basically a free kill for you rather than managing your CDs to do damage in spurts just like they must do once you close. That kind of thinking is a L2P issue.

 

In the current environment where some classes are entirely dependent on keeping melee at range to avoid death giving all melee unremitting or adding roots and/or slows to resolve is simply not workable. We will need defensive CDs to compensate FIRST not 6 months after the change takes affect.

[Juithtin]

Fuk watchman... Think about carnage with unstoppable vs poor mercs

 

Hence why I only said Snares/roots and pulls/pushes, not full immunity. But I agree, Mercs would be boned. I think full cc immunity would be a bad idea for sentinels - like you said; Carnage would annihilate everything and Watchman would be running around immune to everything every 12s. Definitely wouldn't say no to movement immunity though.

[Zoom_VI]

This is why PvP quality has been degrading.

 

Everytime somebody encounters something that is countering them, instead of looking for ways around it, they just go to the forums and demand immunity to it.

[Evanouss]

You clearly haven't thought this through. Giving you immunity to some classes only way of keeping you off them is like giving them a resolve bar to your damage once you do enough. That is just preposterous. You propose a circumstance whereby a class is basically a free kill for you rather than managing your CDs to do damage in spurts just like they must do once you close. That kind of thinking is a L2P issue.

 

In the current environment where some classes are entirely dependent on keeping melee at range to avoid death giving all melee unremitting or adding roots and/or slows to resolve is simply not workable. We will need defensive CDs to compensate FIRST not 6 months after the change takes affect.

 

You're already at range, you already have an advantage when the fight begins. You already have several ways to avoid their damage, what ways do sentinels that are root kited/parked have to avoid, not mitigate but avoid your damage as you do theirs? Short duration slow/root immunity is the only way a sent has a chance against lets say a sorc/sage. Sorc sage is the real problem here, too much root/slow/stun/ speed/bubble/self heal/knock back..it's beyond ridiculous.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Evanouss

[JackNader]

I'd rather remove some slows and roots, especially rotational ones, from the game than give more immunities to classes.

 

+1

 

/5 char

[DsevenO]

You're already at range, you already have an advantage when the fight begins. You already have several ways to avoid their damage, what ways do sentinels that are root kited/parked have to avoid, not mitigate but avoid your damage as you do theirs? Short duration slow/root immunity is the only way a sent has a chance against lets say a sorc/sage. Sorc sage is the real problem here, too much root/slow/stun/ speed/bubble/self heal/knock back..it's beyond ridiculous.

 

Well said.

[DsevenO]

You clearly haven't thought this through. Giving you immunity to some classes only way of keeping you off them is like giving them a resolve bar to your damage once you do enough. That is just preposterous. You propose a circumstance whereby a class is basically a free kill for you rather than managing your CDs to do damage in spurts just like they must do once you close. That kind of thinking is a L2P issue.

 

In the current environment where some classes are entirely dependent on keeping melee at range to avoid death giving all melee unremitting or adding roots and/or slows to resolve is simply not workable. We will need defensive CDs to compensate FIRST not 6 months after the change takes affect.

 

I've never argued for total and complete immunity to roots; that would be truly preposterous. However, rooting a class that depends on close quarters with impunity is equally preposterous.

[skarlson]

You're already at range, you already have an advantage when the fight begins. You already have several ways to avoid their damage, what ways do sentinels that are root kited/parked have to avoid, not mitigate but avoid your damage as you do theirs? Short duration slow/root immunity is the only way a sent has a chance against lets say a sorc/sage. Sorc sage is the real problem here, too much root/slow/stun/ speed/bubble/self heal/knock back..it's beyond ridiculous.

 

I have news for you. Every class has it's problem class. I would love to have a counter to the 17s worth of total CC immunity a typical hatred assassin has. You won't find any posts from me whining about them though minus commenting in a pre-existing thread that their discipline talents to seem a bit over the top after looking more closely at them. L2P and adjust rather than expecting a free pass which is what you are doing. I have both a mara and a sorc as mains so this is viewed from both sides of the isle. It sucks to be standing in place but no class is perfect.

 

P.S.

 

I have had used to great effect against myself and have also done so vs others predation. Running around at lightning speed pretty much permanently is awesome. You should try it.

Edited January 27, 2015 by skarlson

[skarlson]

I've never argued for total and complete immunity to roots; that would be truly preposterous. However, rooting a class that depends on close quarters with impunity is equally preposterous.

 

You do not get rooted with impunity. You get rooted for 5 seconds IF a sorc takes the appropriate talent and it breaks with damage after 2s so it really only lasts 2s given you will have perma affliction up if you are fighting them every 20s which means the sorc gave up something else such as bubble blind or root break on force speed. You can be rooted for .5s, lol at that .5s root, and slowed for 6s which a mara can also do and MUCH more frequently. On top of this you can run around with predation negating the root to nothing more than a speedbump. Mara's have tools to deal with this kind of stuff, it is a L2P issue if you don't use them.

 

The issue mara's currently face is squishiness without a dedicated healer unlike juggs who can run around forever and not die. I personally unremitting needs to go period or be cut in half as 8s of free damage is an eternity to the guy you get the free hits on. At the very least it does not need to be expanded.

[foxmob]

I prefer the suggestion that roots and snares play into the resolve system. even if they don't add to resolve, it's pretty crazy, imo, that they don't respect resolve.

 

this will hurt all of the ranged classes, particularly sniper and sorc, and I think sniper cannot afford the nerf atm. so more would need to be done to compensate. I don't think it would affect mandos much. it might also affect op dps in melee, but I cannot think of another melee that relies on roots for defensive means.

 

the ravage/leap roots are there, but if you're leaping to a full resolve guy, I'd say loss of the root is fair play.

 

resolve lasts comparatively short time period, so I see no problem with being immune to roots and snares just for that period. it's more debatable whether or not they should actually build resolve.

 

:2cents:

[Mclyde]

resolve lasts comparatively short time period, so I see no problem with being immune to roots and snares just for that period. it's more debatable whether or not they should actually build resolve.

 

:2cents:

 

'cause as yu said, sniper would have a big problem since roots/snares are their "only" defenses. Same for a focused Healer, he can't kill his pursuers, so his only defenses are root, snare and knockback (knockbacks are affected by resolve)

[skarlson]

I prefer the suggestion that roots and snares play into the resolve system. even if they don't add to resolve, it's pretty crazy, imo, that they don't respect resolve.

 

this will hurt all of the ranged classes, particularly sniper and sorc, and I think sniper cannot afford the nerf atm. so more would need to be done to compensate. I don't think it would affect mandos much. it might also affect op dps in melee, but I cannot think of another melee that relies on roots for defensive means.

 

the ravage/leap roots are there, but if you're leaping to a full resolve guy, I'd say loss of the root is fair play.

 

resolve lasts comparatively short time period, so I see no problem with being immune to roots and snares just for that period. it's more debatable whether or not they should actually build resolve.

 

:2cents:

 

Unbound, removes movement impairing effects on predation. Expunge, removes cleansable effects, read roots, on force camo. Force charge and oblit remove root. When exactly were you planning on being rooted just wondering.

[Zadtro]

Maybe play one for a while, against a team stacked with Sorcs where every 2nd ability has some form of root/snare then come back.

 

Anyway, in terms of Unremitting for Sentinels, I wouldn't say no (hell, any form of Sentinel cc/root immunity I wouldn't say no). Only issue I see with this is it would be ridiculously op for Watchman/Annihilation, since you're usually popping Leap every 12s as part of your rotation. As stated previously, the biggest issue for Sentinels is snares/roots - so maybe have Force Leap grant a variant of Unremitting that grants immunity to snares, roots and push/pull for 4 seconds... then fix Zealous Ward to give cc immunity and a lowered cd

 

The 12s could be a problem for anni/watchman, maybe make it form based?

I have seen people saying tanks don't need it, if it is form based we can choose which forms benefit and which don't.

 

It could be a herioc utility:

 

Unremitting/Unstoppable - Grants immunity to all character impairing effects after force leap/charge, has different effects depending on lightsaber form:

Shien grants 4 secs immunity

Aturu grants 4 secs immunity

Shii-cho grants 3 secs immunity

Juyo grants 2s immunity

Soresu does not benefit from unremitting/unstoppable

 

One of the reasons i am trying to encourage this is to make melee more viable, ranged classes have so much control at the moment we are always 6/8 or 7/8 classes are ranged in a warzone, shouldn't it be closer to half? Every class has slows, stuns & mezz. I main melee classes, specifically guardian & mara, in every wz i am the only one jumping in because they is rarely other classes joining me.

[Ryuku-sama]

The 12s could be a problem for anni/watchman, maybe make it form based?

I have seen people saying tanks don't need it, if it is form based we can choose which forms benefit and which don't.

 

It could be a herioc utility:

 

Unremitting/Unstoppable - Grants immunity to all character impairing effects after force leap/charge, has different effects depending on lightsaber form:

Shien grants 4 secs immunity

Aturu grants 4 secs immunity

Shii-cho grants 3 secs immunity

Juyo grants 2s immunity

Soresu does not benefit from unremitting/unstoppable

 

One of the reasons i am trying to encourage this is to make melee more viable, ranged classes have so much control at the moment we are always 6/8 or 7/8 classes are ranged in a warzone, shouldn't it be closer to half? Every class has slows, stuns & mezz. I main melee classes, specifically guardian & mara, in every wz i am the only one jumping in because they is rarely other classes joining me.

 

To push your idea further...

 

I don't like the idea of using a mechanic from one spec to buff the others. Each stance should provide their own mechanics.

 

Soresu. Enable Crushing Blow AoE for 15s after leap (this is a nice buff to snap threat in PvE Jugg tank could use).

Shien. Unstoppable as we know it.

Shii-Cho. Leap and Obliterate increase damage reduction by an extra 20% for 3s. They don,t really need anti-kiting option but Rage is kinda squishy compared to the others Juggs and it can't hurt Fury.

Ataru. Make the Mara immune to movement imparing effects and increase his speed by 30% for 6s and grant 20% damage reduction. Unremittable in its current form would be way too much. Carnage would land a full Gore Ravage on about anything. It's way too much burst especially with the 6p.

Juyo. Being knocked back or stunned during the first six seconds after Leap resets Leap CD and grant 20% damage reduction for the next 4s. I think it would make an interresting mechanic instead of giving blanket immunity to the Mara.

 

And for Vengeance to replace Unstoppable in their tree.... Give them a 3s root on Shatter in Shien.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Ryuku-sama

[L-RANDLE]

This is why PvP quality has been degrading.

 

Everytime somebody encounters something that is countering them, instead of looking for ways around it, they just go to the forums and demand immunity to it.

 

While I tend to agree with this, I just have a big problem with any justification not reversing the UDR mechanic back to normal. It was "immunity", before immunity was thrown around like candy at a parade, so how can you justify the cost of using it in the current meta (Alex Modny)?

 

Reversing that would be a step in the right direction...