@Devs- Stabilize your rear deflectors!

[Lendul]

Yes (That simple enough?)

Sort of. Your willingness to give a straight answer has never been in question though Drak. I however do not agree with that assertion being an objective one though. It is not a path toward interesting tactical team play. I think the rock, paper, scissor setup of hard counters has always been the best format for team PvP. To the point where an intermediate player flying a counter will consistently hold off an Ace flying the counteree. Gunships should have been given LLC instead of Burst. Burst should have it's weapon draw increased by 33%. Only engine maneuvers should have missile breaks. Ion Missile should have it's reload reduced by 50% and have a T4 engine lock out. I think the above things would bring good balance and cause healthy meta shift.

[Fractalsponge]

Giving gunships LLC instead of BLC is tantamount to removing close-range weapons from gunships, simply because there is no good close range weapon other than BLC for a ship type that cannot choose its approach. LLC on a gunship is worthless. The problem with BLC balance mostly isn't the weapon itself, but the cooldowns attached to it.

[Lendul]

Giving gunships LLC instead of BLC is tantamount to removing close-range weapons from gunships, simply because there is no good close range weapon other than BLC for a ship type that cannot choose its approach. LLC on a gunship is worthless. The problem with BLC balance mostly isn't the weapon itself, but the cooldowns attached to it.

Like I have said I subscribe to hard counters. I do not think a Gunship should have any chance at all vs a scout, strike or bomber in close combat.

[Fractalsponge]

Well we're not going to be able to have a discussion then, as we have a fundamental disagreement there. Sorry.

[Lendul]

Well we're not going to be able to have a discussion then, as we have a fundamental disagreement there. Sorry.

It just boils down to if you want it to be a game of individual skill or a team game.

[Fractalsponge]

I'm pretty sure you can have both at once . If you can't, it's not a game worth playing for one important segment of any pvp playerbase.

[Lendul]

I'm pretty sure you can have both at once . If you can't, it's not a game worth playing for one important segment of any pvp playerbase.

You don't have both yet you have been playing it for over a year.

[Fractalsponge]

What is that supposed to mean?

[Verain]

It just boils down to if you want it to be a game of individual skill or a team game.

 

Just get out of this thread. This is exactly everything that is wrong with every pvp forum. Just leave and whine elsewhere. You are literally wrong about everything you have said. Hard counters don't make it a team game, arguably they make it pokemon or rock paper scissors. Having a good weapon doesn't make you good at any given role. You could actually give every gunship access to every gun and it wouldn't change balance hardly at all, because the reason that gunships can't win a dogfight is their maneuverability and boost consumption, because this isn't a first person shooter, it isn't rock paper scissors, or pokemon, or whatever. You have some massive chip about how the game should be redesigned, so you come in and troll a thread about NUMBERS CHANGES ONLY that otherwise has huge amounts of participation from the playerbase, to whine about how the game should become something where you can't ever die to a gunship on your precious precious battlescout, and all you can do is trick-attack everyone and bait horrible responses.

 

 

Please, just go.

 

 

Go.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Verain

[Drakkolich]

@Lendul

If you think that BLC + Gunship Chassis doesn't get hard countered by BLC + Cluster + Targeting Telemetry + Scout Chassis, what game are you playing? (And by the way it's countered even harder by Quads + Rocket pods + Targeting telemetry, but I thought I'd show that the Gunship is fighting off 3 weapons vs it's one in short range)

 

BLC is the best short range laser, but just this laser doesn't make you the best short ranged ship. The Gunship Chassis sacrifices a lot of defensive power for the best short range laser + best long range weapon, that is how it is balanced.

 

 

As far as you subscribing to hard counters that's great but games like this aren't only the rock paper system, there has to be balance for skill in place. If the Gunship player is way superior in skill then the Scout he should be able to win that uphill battle, however it definitely is an uphill battle. If there was no possible way for a Gunship to ever beat a Scout regardless of skill this game would be decided by who picks what ships and while in equal skill games it should definitely be like that, it shouldn't be as concrete as you're asking for.

 

I hope that helps clear up why the Gunship has the weapons it does.

[Ramalina]

We do have both. We have had pretty much since the start. We've never had balance mind you, but that's not exactly the same thing.

 

Individual skill: absolutely. It shows in how often one or a few highly skilled players can carry a game.

 

Teamwork: absolutely. I've played evenings with basically the same pool of players, and seen dramatic shifts in team vs. team balance when people on one or both sides switch from playing as individuals to coordinating as a team.

 

Teamwork is much rarer than individual skill in GSF, and when it exists it tends to be of very low quality. Despite that, it's extremely powerful.

 

I'm on board with buffing strikes in regards to fundamental changes with missile break balance, but I don't subscribe to the, "vengeance on other ship classes through (un)balance changes," position. Level the playing field, and I can extract vengeance for strikes on my own, and it'll be a lot more satisfying that way than having the crushed components of other ship classes presented to me on a silver platter.

 

It's worth noting in passing, that the gaming heritage that GSF draws on almost never has hard counters. It's based on tradeoffs between different resources and abilities. It originally stems from real world air combat where there are physical limitations on engineering solutions, such that at any given level of technology to gain in one area you pay a cost in some other area.

 

 

The only lasting hard counter in that realm over the last century has been good teamwork+ good training vs. no teamwork + inadequate training.

For all it's flaws, GSF has actually managed to carry that aspect fairly well.

 

P.S. Verain, you need to work on your ability to distinguish between whiny battlescout pilots and bitter strike pilots. I know using the endangered species lookup table for GSF forum trolling is kind of a pain, but focused irrational hate on shared GS and battlescout components combined with calls for a predominantly strike component buffs is generally a good diagnostic.

 

Edit: this thread is getting abnormally rancorous for a GSF balance discussion thread. Clearly we need the devs to make some substantive changes so that we have actual subject matter to discuss and don't have to descend into sniping at each other over mildly impolite tone in our posts.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Ramalina

[Verain]

Fair point, but usually the strike pilots are in favor of all the obviously needed strike buffs, and don't take time trying to take apart the three classes that actually work

 

I think the big point is that there shouldn't even be a "best short range weapon"- if you get to buffing rapid fire (see OP) and lightly nerfing BLC (also in OP) then you might find a choice where the three options really line up as all being good at different things. It's also worth pointing out that the "best weapon" is in large part determined by "whether you get a capacitor or not". A ship with no capacitor is anywhere from 10% to 20% worse at using the weapon. I mean, if there was "better burst cannon" and it was just like BLC but shot 15% faster, no one would mistake that for the same weapon that the type 1 gunship gets- even though that is literally the case.

 

So no, a gunship isn't a sniper. Unlike FPS, you have all this extra to work with- the maneuverability, the engine cost. The gunship is a heavy frame with big weapons that are mountable. Of COURSE it should have fire power, the point is how easy that firepower is to bring to bear on a target.

[Lendul]

What is that supposed to mean?

You said if you can't have both then it's not a game worth playing. I pointed out that you have been playing GSF even though it doesn't have both. Therefore your actions contradict the conviction you claim to have.

[Lendul]

Just get out of this thread. This is exactly everything that is wrong with every pvp forum. Just leave and whine elsewhere. You are literally wrong about everything you have said. Hard counters don't make it a team game, arguably they make it pokemon or rock paper scissors. Having a good weapon doesn't make you good at any given role. You could actually give every gunship access to every gun and it wouldn't change balance hardly at all, because the reason that gunships can't win a dogfight is their maneuverability and boost consumption, because this isn't a first person shooter, it isn't rock paper scissors, or pokemon, or whatever. You have some massive chip about how the game should be redesigned, so you come in and troll a thread about NUMBERS CHANGES ONLY that otherwise has huge amounts of participation from the playerbase, to whine about how the game should become something where you can't ever die to a gunship on your precious precious battlescout, and all you can do is trick-attack everyone and bait horrible responses.

 

 

Please, just go.

 

 

Go.

I have no chip on my shoulder. I included numbers in what I thought would help clear up many of the perceived role problems in the game. Ramilina is right your perception is a little off on this day. I am far from a Battlescout homer. I fly all ships. I have around a 80% win rate with bombers on my new character on The Bastion that I am trying to gear up for Super Serious(when a queue will pop, there is usually only 1 game going at a time). My suggestions were just aimed at making the game more team centric. And to try to make the two weakest ships (T2 Strike & T2 Gunship) more prominent by making the role of mid range superiority fighter easier to accomplish via making the mid and long range missiles a more serious threat than they are now. Edited February 2, 2015 by Lendul

[Lendul]

As far as you subscribing to hard counters that's great but games like this aren't only the rock paper system, there has to be balance for skill in place. If the Gunship player is way superior in skill then the Scout he should be able to win that uphill battle, however it definitely is an uphill battle. If there was no possible way for a Gunship to ever beat a Scout regardless of skill this game would be decided by who picks what ships and while in equal skill games it should definitely be like that, it shouldn't be as concrete as you're asking for.

 

I hope that helps clear up why the Gunship has the weapons it does.

What do you tell scout pilots to do if a team forms a bomber ball(4 Gunships + 4 Bombers) in a TDM? Switch to Gunships and counter with 8 GS yes? This is actually interesting tactical game play there should be lots and lots of this. I absolutely think the team with more flexible players and more well rounded hangars should win the majority of the time over the one trick pony contingent. But that is only going to happen if the counters are hard enough.

[Ryuku-sama]

I have no chip on my shoulder. I included numbers in what I thought would help clear up many of the perceived role problems in the game. Ramilina is right your perception is a little off on this day. I am far from a Battlescout homer. I fly all ships. I have around a 80% win rate with bombers on my new character on The Bastion that I am trying to gear up for Super Serious(when a queue will pop, there is usually only 1 game going at a time). My suggestions were just aimed at making the game more team centric. And to try to make the two weakest ships (T2 Strike & T2 Gunship) more prominent by making the role of mid range superiority fighter easier to accomplish via making the mid and long range missiles a more serious threat than they are now.

 

Wow.. 80% win rate.. I'm astonished.. That's my win rate on my Rycer half upgraded. Don't post leaderboard stats when there are other people able to post better, 'cause it just makes your point weak.

 

Then what about the 'remove BLC from Sheep'.. Definately not a mid range buff. And between, Protorps and Thermite are already huge threat. You just have to know how to bait a break... And as far as mid range missile goes... Conc is good enough as it is. Ion needs help but that's just because Conc does Ion job better than Ion. EMP isn't bad but it isn't good either.

T2 Strike can be deadly as can be T2 Gunship... Their only major problem (as a ship, I'm not going to talk about the strike chassis problems) is simply they are stuck with Barrel Roll (KT being arguably the worst offesive and defensive maneuver). THey are stuck with a breaker that cost them 20% of their engine and has 20s CD. That's the problem with T2 Strike and T2 Gunship. T2 Gunship offers a decent mid-long range craft but its lack of short CD breaker/2nd long CD breaker makes it weaker than the other gunships. T2 Strike has decent components and can dish out very good damage, but its very long CD breaker makes it weaker than the other strikes.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Ryuku-sama

[Ryuku-sama]

What do you tell scout pilots to do if a team forms a bomber ball(4 Gunships + 4 Bombers) in a TDM? Switch to Gunships and counter with 8 GS yes? This is actually interesting tactical game play there should be lots and lots of this. I absolutely think the team with more flexible players and more well rounded hangars should win the majority of the time over the one trick pony contingent. But that is only going to happen if the counters are hard enough.

 

LMAO. Nope. What you are asking is for a game of chess. Yes there are counters but situationnal awareness, knowledge and understanding of the meta, reflexes and skills, practice and experiance, RNG and luck are as important in GSF as are hard counters. If you want a game dictated by hard counters, go play Pokemon, chess or whatever and got off this twitch based shooter.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Ryuku-sama

[Lendul]

LMAO. Nope. What you are asking is for a game of chess. Yes there are counters but situationnal awareness, knowledge and understanding of the meta, reflexes and skills, practice and experiance, RNG and luck are as important in GSF as are hard counters. If you want a game dictated by hard counters, go play Pokemon, chess or whatever and got off this twitch based shooter.

You can have both. See: League of Legends.

[Ryuku-sama]

You can have both. See: League of Legends.

 

Thank you for using an example that is just impossible to apply in GSF.... As far as I know, LoL isn't a shooter nor a 3D game....

[Drakkolich]

What do you tell scout pilots to do if a team forms a bomber ball(4 Gunships + 4 Bombers) in a TDM? Switch to Gunships and counter with 8 GS yes? This is actually interesting tactical game play there should be lots and lots of this. I absolutely think the team with more flexible players and more well rounded hangars should win the majority of the time over the one trick pony contingent. But that is only going to happen if the counters are hard enough.

 

In the part you quoted that is exactly what I'm saying, in a game of equal skill you should have to pick the counters to win the game. so yes to beat 4 Gunships + 4 Bombers you would go with 8 Gunships yes. However because the game is also balanced for skill, if the 4 Gunships + 4 Bombers are awful players very good Scout players could still tear them apart, this is where your hard counters can't be absolutes.

 

I'm saying the counters should exist but should not be absolutes, if the best Scout in the world can't kill mediocre to bad players playing Bomber + Gunship that is bad skill balancing. This is why you want counters in the game but not to the point where they are absolutes.

 

 

Now you're right the team that is more flexible and chooses the right ships to counter their opponents should definitely have an advantage, but that's where it stops an advantage they shouldn't automatically win. If those one trick pony's as you call them are better pilots and pull out wins even vs their counters they deserve those wins because they proved just how much better they were.

[Kuciwalker]

Yes (That simple enough?)

 

Agree with this, obviously. In close range fights gunships only have 1 button to click, vs the 2 of a strike or the 3 of a scout. That 1 button deserves to be pretty damn good.

[Bolo_Yeung]

Agree with this, obviously. In close range fights gunships only have 1 button to click, vs the 2 of a strike or the 3 of a scout. That 1 button deserves to be pretty damn good.

 

1 button? Maybe for those begineer GS pilots. Especially in T3 GS.

BTW "yeah, GS has to be good at close and long range as well"

[Lendul]

Thank you for using an example that is just impossible to apply in GSF.... As far as I know, LoL isn't a shooter nor a 3D game....

It's a twitch game though which was the criteria you gave. You are the one the said you can't have both twitch game play and deep tactical game play with hard counters.

[Ryuku-sama]

It's a twitch game though which was the criteria you gave. You are the one the said you can't have both twitch game play and deep tactical game play with hard counters.

 

If LoL is a twitch based game.. SWTOR ground game is one too, and one with way more twitch and counters than in LoL. And you've forgotten a little detail... I didn't say

twitch game play

I said

twitch based shooter.

 

In LoL, reflexes aren't really more important than in any other game... You have about 1-2 seconds to react to incoming threats. In GSF, you have less than 1 seconds. Factoring in latency and lag, you may have even less than 0.5 seconds to react. 'Twitch' in LoL and other MMO is far from the kind of twitch you see, increasingly harder, in shooters, space/flight shooters and space/flight sim.

[Lendul]

In the part you quoted that is exactly what I'm saying, in a game of equal skill you should have to pick the counters to win the game. so yes to beat 4 Gunships + 4 Bombers you would go with 8 Gunships yes. However because the game is also balanced for skill, if the 4 Gunships + 4 Bombers are awful players very good Scout players could still tear them apart, this is where your hard counters can't be absolutes.

 

I'm saying the counters should exist but should not be absolutes, if the best Scout in the world can't kill mediocre to bad players playing Bomber + Gunship that is bad skill balancing. This is why you want counters in the game but not to the point where they are absolutes.

 

 

Now you're right the team that is more flexible and chooses the right ships to counter their opponents should definitely have an advantage, but that's where it stops an advantage they shouldn't automatically win. If those one trick pony's as you call them are better pilots and pull out wins even vs their counters they deserve those wins because they proved just how much better they were.

I think as far as tactical game play goes we are in agreement. Where we disagree is when it does and should meaningfully exist. In our hypothetical battle we have going here the next logical step should be the counter move of the 8 Gunships being countered by 8 Scouts. However I think that this only exists at the high level play. I do not think 8 intermediate scouts will counter 8 intermediate Gunships. I also think the only way that you can truly make Strikes a true player in the meta is to make mid-range superiority a real thing. Mid and long range missiles seem to be the most logical means to that end, but they have to be a real threat more that just an annoyance. People complained a lot when Distortion's T3 was bugged some even saying the game was unplayable. I say it was a good thing and that people were uncomfortable because it created a significant paradigm shift in game play. Which I think we all agree is needed. Edited February 2, 2015 by Lendul