TimeDeatH Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) I'm glad that they did what they did with the slot machine. Afterall; its a slot machine, you're not supposed to profit from it. In fact it's way better than most real life slot machines because you make at least half the credits you get back from it. Gambling to get the mount, or get the reputation or even the certs from it, i would say justifies using it, but thats just it, its gambling and not a profit machine. Edited January 21, 2015 by TimeDeatH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharathos Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Yes yes, justify it whatever way you want. I believe the conga line filled with the whinging crafters and gtn barons is over there if you care to join it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngones Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I agree the drops had to be nerfed, I have no issue with that, but they have gone way overboard with it. It is basically just a way to gather rep now. They have increased the chance to fail by a significant margin (too much imo), while making the worthwhile rewards way too low considering this is something that is supposed to entertain. Instead it now feels like a waste of time. I feel a fair percentage chance on the drops would be similar to the following; fail - 29.499% token - 20% green rep - 20% blue rep - 15% purple rep - 5% green mat - 6% blue mat - 3% purple mat - 1% certficate - 0.5% mount - 0.001% I think the overzealous nerf is a knee jerk reaction to the crazy effect it had on the market, and may be rebalanced once thing return somewhat to normal. At least I hope so. However as it stands now from 3.0.2a, the new percentages are way to far to make the machine (or any future iterations) worth the credits to buy them on the GTN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZiggyTank Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) So glad we focused on this instead of fixing operations, lag, bugged content, etc - Actually, Lurker got patched (not saying fixed since I have yet to do it till raidnight. Anyone confirm it doesn't pull its shenanigans anymore? Edited January 21, 2015 by ZiggyTank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddballEasyEight Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I'm glad that they did what they did with the slot machine. Afterall; its a slot machine, you're not supposed to profit from it. In fact it's way better than most real life slot machines because you make at least half the credits you get back from it. Gambling to get the mount, or get the reputation or even the certs from it, i would say justifies using it, but thats just it, its gambling and not a profit machine. Actually, real life slot machines have a 75-90% payback rate... so you'll get back 75-90% of your money whilst playing them. So it's actually alot worse than a real life slot machine. And considering the fact that even the lowest price (green jawa scrap) has an incredibly low chance of dropping, I'd say this is as far away from a real slot machine as it can be. Real slot machines are designed to keep the person playing. This is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denzul Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 So glad we focused on this instead of fixing operations, lag, bugged content, etc. QFT Though I rather enjoyed buying up augs at reduced cost. all 12 of my toons are augged in purples and my sith sorc has a throne now However this has taken away too much focus on important things like bugged game play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pauly Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Oddball is correct again! Let's elaborate: The average return, or "Theoretical" on a slot machine in the United States is .90 (it is required by law to have this rate of return posted near the Main Cage of every casino in many states the US; some states and Native American casinos excepted). It is a simple Operator Menu function or DIP switch function for the casino to set this rate and is audited by gaming boards/commissions. So, if you put in $1.00, over the long run, you should expect to get on average $0.90 back, including all large jackpots awarded (we're not talking the odds on one spin of a machine on max credits and max lines to win a jackpot, we're talking average rate of return, and games have payout tables pre-programmed to deliver these rates of returns, unlike the slot machine in the game here, which is going on straight odds). These machines are not giving a .90 rate of return. Granted my Stronghold on Coruscant is not the average casino in the United States, but casinos in the United States have devoted billions of dollars and decades of research to find out how to keep a person playing a slot machine and this rate of return is based on many tested variables, financially, psychologically, and otherwise, but most importantly to make the casino money. The key here though is that the person must want to play and then be coaxed into continuing to play and this .89-.90 theoretical rate of return for the player is proven to be optimal (around there, lesser denomination machines can go to .98 while larger denomination machines may go as low as .82, mostly depending on the local competition and laws; a .87 or lower machine would be referred to as "loose" and it is how casinos can prove they have the "loosest slots in town", but only one bank of machines at a casino have to have this better rate of return for them to advertise it, and it is probably a single or pair bank of $100 denomination machine(s)). By law casinos must prove using revenue summaries and audits that they are complying with this advertised/declared/posted theoretical or average rate of return. In conclusion, since this slot machine is not set up to make Bioware money on a spin-by-spin basis (the cartel market packs themselves are Bioware's "casino"), they nerfed this machine to the point that no one would want to play it or continue to play it. Hence mine and many others' presumption that they overreacted without thinking of the other variables that go into playing slots. The machine is useless now, both for the player and operator, but Bioware doesn't know this because they aren't making money off the spins, only on the purchase to get the machine from the cartel pack. The argument that it is gambling/a slot machine and you are meant to lose money is nonsense; it is a business. Any casino that stocked their floor with these would be bankrupt in a week. Having a machine that always loses makes the casino little to no money because no one will play it, and the patron may leave, losing even more money. The cartel market is supposed to be fun, this is not fun or entertainment anymore, nor, because of their error (which was not an error at first according to them) will it ever be fun, because we've already tasted the forbidden fruit of having the loosest slots ever anywhere. They may have ruined us for all slot machines in this game again...if you aren't a slot jockey with an addictive personality (but even then you need to feed them enough "wins" to compel them to stay, otherwise they'll get up and possibly go to another casino, and we definitely don't want them to do that, no, no, they're our bread and butta.). BTW If you didn't realize by now, I work in the gaming industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draqsko Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 First 200 Tokens so far: 59 Banned Holovids 26 Prohibited Medical Supplies 8 Confiscated Artworks 1 Scavenged Scrap Total Spent: 150k credits Total Returned 75.5k credits, 1 green mat There's nerfing, and then there's overnerfing. This is starting to look like overnerfing, but I'll need a larger sample size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venomlash Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 First 200 Tokens so far: 59 Banned Holovids 26 Prohibited Medical Supplies 8 Confiscated Artworks 1 Scavenged Scrap Total Spent: 150k credits Total Returned 75.5k credits, 1 green mat There's nerfing, and then there's overnerfing. This is starting to look like overnerfing, but I'll need a larger sample size. I was afraid of this... I agree that the ~10% chance to get a mat token was too high, but it should be more like 3%-5%, not 1%. Nerfbat OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeDeatH Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) Actually, real life slot machines have a 75-90% payback rate... so you'll get back 75-90% of your money whilst playing them. So it's actually alot worse than a real life slot machine. And considering the fact that even the lowest price (green jawa scrap) has an incredibly low chance of dropping, I'd say this is as far away from a real slot machine as it can be. Real slot machines are designed to keep the person playing. This is not. You aren't supposed to profit from a slot machine anyways... Edited January 21, 2015 by TimeDeatH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undiess Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) Guys, at least the fail chance is low in relation to the fail chance Bioware has when doing anything right. Edited January 21, 2015 by undiess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddballEasyEight Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I was afraid of this... I agree that the ~10% chance to get a mat token was too high, but it should be more like 3%-5%, not 1%. Nerfbat OP. Actually, it's only 0.5% of getting ANYTHING other than the rep items. So it's not even 1% of getting a mat token. It's 0.5% chance of getting anything good at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSStember Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 While I agree the drop rate of Jawa Junk needed to be nerfed a bit, they seemed to have gone too far to the point the slot machines probably won't have any "lasting power" since the rep they offer most have already gained to Legendary status and the credit value of the rep isn't really worth it. It's sad, they had a good thing going here and they cut it back too hard. Hopefully they will re-balance it so it's fun to use, and not too "giving" of the good stuff, and I'm also hoping they offer other Slot Machines that have different Cartel rep in them (easy to do since there are many flavors of Cartel Rep). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeDeatH Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 While I agree the drop rate of Jawa Junk needed to be nerfed a bit, they seemed to have gone too far to the point the slot machines probably won't have any "lasting power" since the rep they offer most have already gained to Legendary status and the credit value of the rep isn't really worth it. It's sad, they had a good thing going here and they cut it back too hard. Hopefully they will re-balance it so it's fun to use, and not too "giving" of the good stuff, and I'm also hoping they offer other Slot Machines that have different Cartel rep in them (easy to do since there are many flavors of Cartel Rep). I think they said they would be adding different rep slot machines in the future on the post they made about the maintenance yesterday. I'm grateful that these slot machines give rep that you can't get elsewhere but packs. To me that holds a lot more value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undiess Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I think they said they would be adding different rep slot machines in the future on the post they made about the maintenance yesterday. I'm grateful that these slot machines give rep that you can't get elsewhere but packs. To me that holds a lot more value. Omg, Bioware!! They're exploiting! They're getting around having to buy packs for cartel specific reputation by BUYING slot machines off GTN to get the reputation! EXPLOIT! They don't deserve it! It's like getting Raid gear for not raiding!!! OMG OMG OMG!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddballEasyEight Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I think they said they would be adding different rep slot machines in the future on the post they made about the maintenance yesterday. I'm grateful that these slot machines give rep that you can't get elsewhere but packs. To me that holds a lot more value. That doesn't change his point though. The machines have no lasting power. They'll be used for an hour and then discarded. Not to mention that most of the people who buy hypercrates will have already have maxed out their reps, so the machines won't be of interest to them anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ksilvante Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Omg, Bioware!! They're exploiting! They're getting around having to buy packs for cartel specific reputation by BUYING slot machines off GTN to get the reputation! EXPLOIT! They don't deserve it! It's like getting Raid gear for not raiding!!! OMG OMG OMG!!!! I had to clean the coffee off my screen after reading this. Good on ya and maybe just a tad too little sarcasm. They'll not fix the slots again because all the people that screamed bloody murder in the first place will just start up again. Never ending cycle I fear.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnAskham Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) I had to clean the coffee off my screen after reading this. Good on ya and maybe just a tad too little sarcasm. They'll not fix the slots again because all the people that screamed bloody murder in the first place will just start up again. Never ending cycle I fear.... They can and hopefully will, if they treat them like the nightlife event and not some way to bypass an aspect of the game, such as crew skills. Just use similar win rates as they had in the old casino event, with some extra 'win' chances added for certs and rep, and the prizes being the rare and super rare items from the original packs which tie to the rep. Adjust as needed to make them fun, but also an effective credit sink, while giving players the chance to obtain old CM items. Edited January 21, 2015 by DawnAskham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choloe Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I'm glad that they did what they did with the slot machine. Afterall; its a slot machine, you're not supposed to profit from it. In fact it's way better than most real life slot machines because you make at least half the credits you get back from it. Gambling to get the mount, or get the reputation or even the certs from it, i would say justifies using it, but thats just it, its gambling and not a profit machine. You're making an assumption that EVERYONE sold their mats on the GTN. That is a false statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choloe Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) That doesn't change his point though. The machines have no lasting power. They'll be used for an hour and then discarded. Not to mention that most of the people who buy hypercrates will have already have maxed out their reps, so the machines won't be of interest to them anyway. I had already maxed out Reputation (in fact; I'm maxed on EVERYTHING up to the new packs)... So, as a REPUTATION SLOT MACHINE, I would not have bothered with it... It was useful for me in MY crafting... Now, it's just one more deco item taking up a hook... Edited January 21, 2015 by Choloe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suromir Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I'm glad that they did what they did with the slot machine. Afterall; its a slot machine, you're not supposed to profit from it. In fact it's way better than most real life slot machines because you make at least half the credits you get back from it. Gambling to get the mount, or get the reputation or even the certs from it, i would say justifies using it, but thats just it, its gambling and not a profit machine. don't be stupid. You're SUPPOSED to have a CHANCE to profit quite a bit from slot machines. A small chance. But a chance. There is NO chance to profit from these faux slot-machines at all. No one would EVER play the slots if your "fact" was true. Try again. And it did need tweaking, I'm with them on that. But, as with every damn thing BIo does..it's overkill and nerfed into complete garbage. way too much of a negative adjustment...way too much. They may as well not even bother with any "fun" items anymore...and certainly NEVER give us another "slot machine" It's pointless...They have no clue what they're doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neoforcer Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I stopped using mine all together it a waste of time now i new it would need a nerf. Not crying over it but this is turned it into not even worth paying jawa to install then in your stronghold. IT is not fun to get only rep from 700 coins that how bad it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choloe Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Oddball is correct again! Let's elaborate: The average return, or "Theoretical" on a slot machine in the United States is .90 (it is required by law to have this rate of return posted near the Main Cage of every casino in many states the US; some states and Native American casinos excepted). It is a simple Operator Menu function or DIP switch function for the casino to set this rate and is audited by gaming boards/commissions. So, if you put in $1.00, over the long run, you should expect to get on average $0.90 back, including all large jackpots awarded (we're not talking the odds on one spin of a machine on max credits and max lines to win a jackpot, we're talking average rate of return, and games have payout tables pre-programmed to deliver these rates of returns, unlike the slot machine in the game here, which is going on straight odds). These machines are not giving a .90 rate of return. Granted my Stronghold on Coruscant is not the average casino in the United States, but casinos in the United States have devoted billions of dollars and decades of research to find out how to keep a person playing a slot machine and this rate of return is based on many tested variables, financially, psychologically, and otherwise, but most importantly to make the casino money. The key here though is that the person must want to play and then be coaxed into continuing to play and this .89-.90 theoretical rate of return for the player is proven to be optimal (around there, lesser denomination machines can go to .98 while larger denomination machines may go as low as .82, mostly depending on the local competition and laws; a .87 or lower machine would be referred to as "loose" and it is how casinos can prove they have the "loosest slots in town", but only one bank of machines at a casino have to have this better rate of return for them to advertise it, and it is probably a single or pair bank of $100 denomination machine(s)). By law casinos must prove using revenue summaries and audits that they are complying with this advertised/declared/posted theoretical or average rate of return. In conclusion, since this slot machine is not set up to make Bioware money on a spin-by-spin basis (the cartel market packs themselves are Bioware's "casino"), they nerfed this machine to the point that no one would want to play it or continue to play it. Hence mine and many others' presumption that they overreacted without thinking of the other variables that go into playing slots. The machine is useless now, both for the player and operator, but Bioware doesn't know this because they aren't making money off the spins, only on the purchase to get the machine from the cartel pack. The argument that it is gambling/a slot machine and you are meant to lose money is nonsense; it is a business. Any casino that stocked their floor with these would be bankrupt in a week. Having a machine that always loses makes the casino little to no money because no one will play it, and the patron may leave, losing even more money. The cartel market is supposed to be fun, this is not fun or entertainment anymore, nor, because of their error (which was not an error at first according to them) will it ever be fun, because we've already tasted the forbidden fruit of having the loosest slots ever anywhere. They may have ruined us for all slot machines in this game again...if you aren't a slot jockey with an addictive personality (but even then you need to feed them enough "wins" to compel them to stay, otherwise they'll get up and possibly go to another casino, and we definitely don't want them to do that, no, no, they're our bread and butta.). BTW If you didn't realize by now, I work in the gaming industry. Holy Crap.... WELL SAID!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSStember Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 You're making an assumption that EVERYONE sold their mats on the GTN. That is a false statement. Very true. The mats I gained from the Slot Machine went right back to my crafters to make augments and such, and the Cartel Certs I was winning was going into decorations for my Stronghold and stuff for my alts. Not everyone was looking at these Slot Machines as "money makers", many of us were just enjoying them to enhance our gaming enjoyment with our alts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draqsko Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 They can and hopefully will, if they treat them like the nightlife event and not some way to bypass an aspect of the game, such as crew skills. Just use similar win rates as they had in the old casino event, with some extra 'win' chances added for certs and rep, and the prizes being the rare and super rare items from the original packs which tie to the rep. Adjust as needed to make them fun, but also an effective credit sink, while giving players the chance to obtain old CM items. People won't buy the machine unless they can get a REASONABLE return on useful items. That means certs and mats. People won't buy this, they will wait til the packs come off embargo (which they always do), and then buy them if they want the rep. At least they'll make money on the stuff in the packs instead of spending a ridiculous amount for a chance to win nothing besides maxing your rep. All they needed to do was change the scavenged scrap to 15-8% chance to win, droid parts stay at 10%, jawa junk down to 2-5%. Keep everything else the same, just tweak the ratio of green to purple until it hits the sweet spot. This was all that needed to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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