LordArtemis Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) I actually think it should be like this instead..... fail - 24.999% token - 26% green rep - 20% blue rep - 15% purple rep - 5% green mat - 6% blue mat - 2% purple mat - 1% certificate - 4% mount - 0.001% If they have to leave the scrap drop rate as it is now, that is fine IMO, but they should roll that 9 percent or so into the token drop....NOT FAIL CHANCE. Fail chance needs to remain below 25 percent. Certificate drop rate needs to return to what it was at least....and that extra amount ALSO rolled into the token drop. What is important is that the WIN RATE remains as it was (one of things that made it fun) and the common big prize, besides some coin back from rep should be the cert. That is how it should have been in the first place. IMO this thing should have NEVER dropped scrap. That is the reason it was nerfed into oblivion in the first place. If it had never had scrap they probably would have left it alone. Edited January 21, 2015 by LordArtemis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDymond Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 No, this is NOT a good version of the item. It is only useful now for Rep, which means the slot has a useful life of an hour or two per account. Honestly, you now only need 1-2 slot machines for an entire server. Well, aside from those crazy enough to think they can win the mount (I guess rich guys with macros can.) What they SHOULD have done is put the Jawa Junk drop rates/costs at something similar to missions. That way if you wanted the rare mats faster you could do it via paying for this machine, with a bonus of saving you some time from farming green mats. But if you didn't care for the extra speed, you could save your money and just run the mission skills and never invest in the slot machine. It would give you an option, be useful, but not required. THAT would be a good version of this slot machine. What they have now is not even worth the decoration hook it uses up. That's 1-2 hours of useful life more than any other decorations in the game. I wouldn't have had a real problem if they had nerfed the drop rate to be just below the return rate for Crew Skill missions - that's actually what I'd suggested in some of the (way too many) other threads on the subject. But I do feel like giving that much gameplay functionality to a CM item is skirting closer to the P2W line, which I prefer they stay far, far away from. Keeping the rewards tied to CM rep and CM certs and a cosmetic mount seems like a better fit for a CM drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Since I spent real money to get these machines, based on the drop rates and BioWare's statements that they intended the machines to be a source of mats, I wonder if this is a deceptive sales practice under California state laws? I hate to throw good money after bad, but I'm seriously considering finding an attorney that practices California consumer protection law and paying to get their analysis. This is not a reasonable "tuning"of what I bought. It reduces the machines to uselessness, and I'm going to be annoyed at BioWare every time I see the damn things now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamLKvist Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Look up what a Nerf is and accept that what they did was go beyond nerfing it to making it completely useless. Hell I think Bioware should join you as well in looking up what a nerf is. This goes so far beyond that it earns a Picard facepalm. As for your thoughts on who benefited from this, yeah might want to provide some proof if you are going to make such stupid claims and accusations. Many people benefited from this slot machine. The Rich, the not so rich and anyone who got a cartel pack with one of these in it. But always remember it was the crafters and gtn barons who cried that they were being undercut on the gtn and it was Bioware themselves who said that the whole purpose of the slot machines was to try and bring the price of said overpriced mats to a price they thought was more reasonable. Meaning the prices on the gtn were overpriced that even Bioware thought the same. Sadly they also buckled like a b***** and removed the one thing that was forcing more reasonable prices on the gtn with mats. Now if you are maxed out on rep, the slot machine are utterly useless. Good work Bioware. All I know is I'm not one of the guys whose crafted for forever, but I got a loan from someone who had, I also (prematurely) invested about 6milion credits in buying slicing comps for 19k a pop (before I had the slot machines and realised the extent of their absurd opness)... My initial investment was 18 million, to buy circs and 2 slotmachines, I have made that money back and 5 milion AND am safe with my crafting and selfsufficient for the ENTIRE 3.0-4.0 (yes, unless they do something completely new for the game and introduce new mats for augments, wont happen) What you also need to consider is that I've made this kind of profit in the week? Two? (Cant remember, my bad sorry)... Do you realise what wouldve happened if it continued? EVERYONE would have EVERYTHING. You keep talking about the economy as if it would have survived. It was on the brink of permanent death, they waited far too long to fix this - the power players have far too much materials already. I'm sitting on over 1K certs, over 1.4k circs and over 1k jawa junk... Has it been fun pressing my mouse like a *********** lunatic being locked out of actually playing the game because of this imbalance that, if you didnt participate in, would leave you behind forever? No. Good thing dual-screen is a thing and series + movies as well. As to your point. Yes, yes sir I do agree. The market has been establishing a too high median of prices, its ridicolous how high the profit of certain items have been in the past. But please, you must realise that this was not the way to fix it? Increase the drops from crew skills and/or decrease the materials needed to craft - theres a fix for you. A fix that is not open to abuse from people with macros, people who can sit all day at work pressing the button etc etc. I'm sorry but a machine such a this can NEVER be balanced around 24/7 uptime... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthEccen Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 An interesting food for thought: This doesn't just reflect badly on Bioware from a company to player relationship. Bioware is now going to make less money on the cartel packs because less people will buy them to get access to a slot machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denzul Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Since I spent real money to get these machines, based on the drop rates and BioWare's statements that they intended the machines to be a source of mats, I wonder if this is a deceptive sales practice under California state laws? I hate to throw good money after bad, but I'm seriously considering finding an attorney that practices California consumer protection law and paying to get their analysis. This is not a reasonable "tuning"of what I bought. It reduces the machines to uselessness, and I'm going to be annoyed at BioWare every time I see the damn things now. LOL good luck with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 How does that change the fact that it makes sense for the cheaper machine to have worse odds than the expensive machine for a comparable reward? most casinos dont make you buy the machine when you walk in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 This doesn't just reflect badly on Bioware from a company to player relationship. Bioware is now going to make less money on the cartel packs because less people will buy them to get access to a slot machine. Or for any reason, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neglience Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) An interesting food for thought: This doesn't just reflect badly on Bioware from a company to player relationship. Bioware is now going to make less money on the cartel packs because less people will buy them to get access to a slot machine. Yes because people where only buying packs for the machine for all time now. The machine should just have been a deco item with some use on it from the start on. Biowares only mistake was to release it as credit generator for the player. If that did not have happened, no one would complain now, how bad the chances are on the machine. Edited January 21, 2015 by Neglience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grombrinda Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 And why not? Why should it not be an equal alternative to crew missions? Actually..the crew missions should be brought up some , in my opinion. In crit chances I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grombrinda Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I want to end all this casino/slots talk. The average return, or "Theoretical" on a slot machine in the United States is .90 (it is required by law to have this rate of return posted near the Main Cage of every casino in many states the US; some states and Native American casinos excepted). It is a simple Operator Menu function or DIP switch function for the casino to set this rate and is audited by gaming boards/commissions. So, if you put in $1.00, over the long run, you should expect to get on average $0.90 back, including all large jackpots awarded (we're not talking the odds on one spin of a machine on max credits and max lines to win a jackpot, we're talking average rate of return, and games have payout tables pre-programmed to deliver these rates of returns, unlike the slot machine in the game here, which is going on straight odds). These machines are not giving a .90 rate of return. Granted my Stronghold on Coruscant is not the average casino in the United States, but casinos in the United States have devoted billions of dollars and decades of research to find out how to keep a person playing a slot machine and this rate of return is based on many tested variables, financially, psychologically, and otherwise, but most importantly to make the casino money. The key here though is that the person must want to play and then be coaxed into continuing to play and this .89-.90 theoretical rate of return for the player is proven to be optimal (around there, lesser denomination machines can go to .98 while larger denomination machines may go as low as .82, mostly depending on the local competition and laws; a .87 or lower machine would be referred to as "loose" and it is how casinos can prove they have the "loosest slots in town", but only one bank of machines at a casino have to have this better rate of return for them to advertise it, and it is probably a single or pair bank of $100 denomination machine(s)). By law casinos must prove using revenue summaries and audits that they are complying with this advertised/declared/posted theoretical or average rate of return. In conclusion, since this slot machine is not set up to make Bioware money on a spin-by-spin basis (the cartel market packs themselves are Bioware's "casino"), they nerfed this machine to the point that no one would want to play it or continue to play it. Hence mine and many others' presumption that they overreacted without thinking of the other variables that go into playing slots. The machine is useless now, both for the player and operator, but Bioware doesn't know this because they aren't making money off the spins, only on the purchase to get the machine from the cartel pack. The argument that it is gambling/a slot machine and you are meant to lose money is nonsense; it is a business. Any casino that stocked their floor with these would be bankrupt in a week. Having a machine that always loses makes the casino little to no money because no one will play it, and the patron may leave, losing even more money. The cartel market is supposed to be fun, this is not fun or entertainment anymore, nor, because of their error (which was not an error at first according to them) will it ever be fun, because we've already tasted the forbidden fruit of having the loosest slots ever anywhere. They may have ruined us for all slot machines in this game again...if you aren't a slot jockey with an addictive personality (but even then you need to feed them enough "wins" to compel them to stay, otherwise they'll get up and possibly go to another casino, and we definitely don't want them to do that, no, no, they're our bread and butta.). BTW If you didn't realize by now, I work in the gaming industry. Bravo , sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthEccen Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Sadly they also buckled like a b***** and removed the one thing that was forcing more reasonable prices on the gtn with mats. Now if you are maxed out on rep, the slot machine are utterly useless. Good work Bioware. I'm against this nerf, but can't you turn coins into sellable reputation items? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesh Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Yes, you get ONLY rep items. Chances for Jawa Scrap (one) are as high as for the Nightlife Rancor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 LOL good luck with that. You don't know California consumer protection law, do you? I think not. There's an attorney in California who made a fortune just going to small retail shops, seeing whether they had a wheelchair ramp if they had even one step at the entrance, suing them under the ADA if they did not, and settling the suit for a few thousand dollars. Heck of a racket, perfectly legal, but it's just one example of why amateurs shouldn't think they know how the law works or what you can do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddballEasyEight Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 I'm against this nerf, but can't you turn coins into sellable reputation items? Sure, at a 50-60% loss rate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharathos Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) You keep talking about the economy as if it would have survived. It was on the brink of permanent death, they waited far too long to fix this - the power players have far too much materials already.. Permanent death??? Wow you having the same knee jerk reaction Bioware had or what? The Economy of SWTOR was utterly no where, NO WHERE near death. Only the GTN barons and crafters wanted people to think that bull$hit. Level 11 mats only forms one part of what is used and sold on the gtn. In case you haven't noticed, there are plenty of things for sale on the gtn besides mats and things crafted from them. A Big one that comes to mind is people buying hypercrates off the CM and selling it for an easy 12 million credits on the gtn. No complaints there I see? Or how about all the items garnered from cartel packs being sold on the gtn? The SWTOR economy is a lot stronger then the doom and gloom crafters would have us believe. Still the easier solution besides decreasing (not outright shutting down) the slot returns was to actually make the crew missions more viable especially if Bioware are sincere in wanting to see more people be able to get lvl 11 mats. But as usual, Bioware had to do their typical ham fisted approach to solving issues in game. Speaking of which, the slots got a pretty fast response and resolution. Why does this not happen with other outstanding issues in game outstanding for MONTHS or the ravager exploiters? What's the go? Edited January 21, 2015 by kharathos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I'll wait for more information to come out but this smells of knee jerk reaction without proper consideration to the ramifications of their decisions. It happens. It happens where I work and it happens in the video game industry. This behavior isn't that atypical of MMOs. What usually occurs is an gross over reaction which is then rebalanced by a final change to bring things back in line. What frustrates me most about this is that you think these project teams would learn from the multitude of time this has happened in the past: A change comes out that upsets the game or balance of the game. The community response is met with a reactionary fix or patch that goes well beyond the intention of the fix. The community response goes the other way and now the exact opposite issue exists or the item/class is rendered useless. Finally, another patch is deployed to balance the two changes. Seriously. How hard is it for these developers and project teams to stop over reacting? There are days when I don't get it but then again, I don't work at Bioware so there is most likely something I don't see like they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDymond Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 You don't know California consumer protection law, do you? I think not. There's an attorney in California who made a fortune just going to small retail shops, seeing whether they had a wheelchair ramp if they had even one step at the entrance, suing them under the ADA if they did not, and settling the suit for a few thousand dollars. Heck of a racket, perfectly legal, but it's just one example of why amateurs shouldn't think they know how the law works or what you can do with it. That 'racket' works because those were small retail shops who wouldn't be able to afford fighting those suits in court. EA's legal team and whatever litigation firms they have on retainer are a whole other ballgame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariasfel Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) I paid REAL money on packs for this slot machine. AFTER it was "working as intended". Now, it is absolutely worthless! Thanks..... some real honest business right there. If I go buy a TV at Best Buy should they be allowed to come to my house and replace my 52" with a 32" and keep my money? Awful business practice..... I understand you needed to make changes, but you really need to TEST these things out BEFORE you sell them for REAL MONEY. Between this and how long the Ravagers exploit was allowed to run rampant I've lost a lot of faith in you guys. Edited January 21, 2015 by ariasfel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSeventhJedi Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 The house always wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neglience Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) I paid REAL money on packs for this slot machine. AFTER it was "working as intended". Now, it is absolutely worthless! Thanks..... some real honest business right there. If I go buy a TV at Best Buy should they be allowed to come to my house and replace my 52" with a 32" and keep my money? Awful business practice..... I understand you needed to make changes, but you really need to TEST these things out BEFORE you sell them for REAL MONEY. Between this and how long the Ravagers exploit was allowed to run rampant I've lost a lot of faith in you guys. They also stated they are viewing on the statistics and might change it. I could have bought a few machines and made millions with it but i did not. Stupid "gameplay" is not worth the time. However, yes this should not have been released in the first place. Edited January 21, 2015 by Neglience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mubrak Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) This low return rate will ensure that nobody will keep gambling on this machine. Nice. So nobody will buy them anymore, the GTN prices will drop, and those of us who just wanted a couple of useable slot machines for their casino-strongholds may be able to afford them. Still, typical Bioware "balancing": nerf to uselessness to please the loudest whiners. Edited January 21, 2015 by Mubrak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neoforcer Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Was fun to get some thing now it is just a waste of good credit nice job BW we figured a nerf which it needed but now i wont even bother with the slots they just collect dust. Way to go you bating a 1000 with every thing you do. Keep it up we will all go play lego star wars as it more fun any ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AussieAlan Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Yeah this is shocking, I completely understand it needed a nerf, but not this bad. In 4 hours yesterday I made a million credits, in 2 hours today I am down 30k, and that is based on the fact I had 50 99 stacks of coins at 500 credits, not 750. We should at least end up a little better, not worse. To insure that the Slot Machine is still an awesome item to strive for, we have added a faction specific walker mount as a very rare drop FAIL, a reskin of a mount that is easy as pie to get, and you make it super hard to get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pauly Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Complete Bait and Switch Bioware. People paid real money for hypercrates and packs AFTER you said it was not a bug or an exploit. What you did in many jurisdictions and to many juries would be construed as bait and switch. The surge in purchases of crates and hypercrates after you made the statement "working as intended" would be damning evidence and call for punitive fines just for its implied 'baiting the hook". Check with the EA lawyers on this one, you may be in an actionable situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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