Changes Coming in Tomorrow's (1/21) Maintenance

[Grayseven]

That is fine, if the machine wasn't sold a week ago for real money.

 

If this machine were given out free to everyone, then I'd have no issues whatsoever with the changes... I bought it with CC via the packs, specify to get the machine.

 

If it isn't illegal to do this, it should be.

 

The machine was NOT sold for real money. It was an item you had a chance to get from Cartel Packs. Your argument makes no sense. You got value from your packs regardless if the only thing you wanted was this item.

 

When you buy Cartel Packs, you have no guarantee of getting a specific item. That you wanted this specific item and spent CC to get packs and then got lucky has no bearing on it.

 

The second thing to remember is that everything in game is subject to change if the company believes it needs to change. Anyone who didn't see this nerf coming is deluding themselves, since they destroyed a game system completely by making the drop rate for Jawa Junk so high.

 

If you bought one for millions on the GTN thinking it wouldn't be changed...again, delusional. It broke a game system and had to be changed. Eric Musco specifically stated in his post concerning the slot machine that they were looking at the drop rates of Jawa Junk and would make adjustments if necessary. Well, when you break another game system it really becomes necessary.

 

Anything in this game is subject to change, and it is guaranteed to change when it breaks something else.

 

I paid 500k for mine. I've paid much more for decorations that didn't do anything but sit there. I've paid much more for gear that became obsolete the moment this last expansion went live.

 

I agree that not saying anything about the Cartel Certificate drop rates was lame, but it could have just slipped their minds. I agree that the current rewards make the slot machine useless for anything but gaining reputation and looking snazzy in your Stronghold. I'm hoping they revisit these slot machine deco's and actually have them drop items from the embargoed packs that they represent. But no Cartel Market item should ever have a drastic effect on an in game system like crafting, PvE or PvP.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Hidden in here is a comment about the lack of purple materal drops from gathering missions.

 

[cynism]Buy it way overpriced from "professional crafters, inc."[/cynism]

[Heat-Wave]

So they -did- change it so you can only use one in your own stronghold?

 

The sky is blue, you're colorblind, there is not much I can do to explain it to you... you'll just have to trust me...

 

Or don't...

[EnkiduNineEight]

Oh *gasp* maybe the slot machine wasn't supposed to replace crew skills completely and destroy the crafting market, but instead give people another way to get reputation for old cartel stuff and they completely underestimated people's ability of going overboard with the slot machine. Good change. Maybe you slot machine gouging whales can now try to adapt. (see? I can call you those names too) Now you guys can get such a required items for operations and PVP such as the Revan Mask and the Hoverchair as some of you say they are. Peace

 

No, the slot was not intended to replace crew skills but Eric did post they had intended the Jawa Scrap from the Slot Machine to be part of their strategy to make crafting materials more accessible to the players.

 

Their initial introduction was not well thought out and tested and caused gathering skills to be useless. Likely because someone did not understand math.

 

Their initial patch/fix has gone entirely the other direction where there is no appreciable increase in the accessibility of materials for the players as you are going to get 1 Jawa Junk per 1000 spins, on average, given a suitably large number of spins.

 

These are the same odds, for Jawa Junk, as were present for the Kingpin Rancor.

 

So, again, someone likely just did not understand math.

 

Hopefully, with constructive assistance from the community instead of a bunch of whining and back and forth attacking of individuals, we can help them understand math AND a pathway to a solution that is not 100% what anyone wants (well, except for people like me who like to see 'balanced' additions to the game) but which provides for a game experience that is great for everyone.

 

The old rates too generous.

New rates too stingy.

Help BioWare find an acceptable median.

 

My own suggestion is to have the cost per jawa junk via the slot machines roughtly equal 150 to 200% of the cost per Purple when using Crew Skills. This seems like a steep cost to some (I hear them working up a whiny tirade now) and not a steep enough cost to others (see.. hear that, that's them working up a hearty whine too) and makes the jawa Junk available was was intended in greater numbers, while not ruining crafting skills.

 

Since you can get the jawa scraps from gambling and in a method that is faster and more 'reliable' as per QTY, their extra cost is justified. Crafters will continue instead to focus on the missins which are cheaper and thus allow them to continue to make and sell goods on the GTN.

 

The individual player can choose to do whatever they want, spend less/wait longer or spend more/get sooner and either craft for themselves or sell on the GTN but recognize their margins are going to be lower than the margins of the player using gathering missions so their profits smaller.

 

And again, because now there is another method to get even more materials into the economy/system and faster to boot, convenience will rule and supply will increase even at greater cost and the stated goal of wanting accessibility for these materials will be met and thus with greater supply, we'll see prices lowered but not completely rock bottom like they were for just a few days.

 

Thanks.

Edited January 21, 2015 by EnkiduNineEight

[Khevar]

The old rates too generous.

New rates too stingy.

Help BioWare find an acceptable median.

Two thumbs up!

[Andryah]

The old rates too generous.

New rates too stingy.

 

^^ in a nut shell.

 

 

Help BioWare find an acceptable median.

 

Heh... so now we have to do their job for them..... on something that really only requires normal human levels of common sense??

 

I think they can simply refer to the classic "Goldilocks" kids story and figure it out on their own. OR... maybe not.

[ivanhedgehog]

4. Because the machine was destroying other parts of the game which are not just an item added to the CM.

 

6. One could create up to 1000+ grade 11 mats with this machine per day. With crew missions this would probably take weeks ( assuming you took the way through month of playtime to build this up)

 

you can run 22 x 6 missions at the same time per server using crafting missions. thats a lot of mats..with the lower prices for the mats people would not spend near as much time using the slots. the devs didnt begin to let enough data collect for the market to stabilize. they catered to the mat gougers and pissed off a large portion of the player base.

 

1000 mats per day? 3000 jawa junk? you would get carpal tunnel before even coming close to that. if someone is using a bot or macro, deal with them under the tos. gathering skills can be macroed to auto gather, should the make nodes only spawn 1 time a week to fix this?

[Arkerus]

No, the slot was not intended to replace crew skills but Eric did post they had intended the Jawa Scrap from the Slot Machine to be part of their strategy to make crafting materials more accessible to the players.

 

Their initial introduction was not well thought out and tested and caused gathering skills to be useless. Likely because someone did not understand math.

 

Their initial patch/fix has gone entirely the other direction where there is no appreciable increase in the accessibility of materials for the players as you are going to get 1 Jawa Junk per 1000 spins, on average, given a suitably large number of spins.

 

These are the same odds, for Jawa Junk, as were present for the Kingpin Rancor.

 

So, again, someone likely just did not understand math.

 

Hopefully, with constructive assistance from the community instead of a bunch of whining and back and forth attacking of individuals, we can help them understand math AND a pathway to a solution that is not 100% what anyone wants (well, except for people like me who like to see 'balanced' additions to the game) but which provides for a game experience that is great for everyone.

 

The old rates too generous.

New rates too stingy.

Help BioWare find an acceptable median.

 

My own suggestion is to have the cost per jawa junk via the slot machines roughtly equal 150 to 200% of the cost per Purple when using Crew Skills. This seems like a steep cost to some (I hear them working up a whiny tirade now) and not a steep enough cost to others (see.. hear that, that's them working up a hearty whine too) and makes the jawa Junk available was was intended in greater numbers, while not ruining crafting skills.

 

Since you can get the jawa scraps from gambling and in a method that is faster and more 'reliable' as per QTY, their extra cost is justified. Crafters will continue instead to focus on the missins which are cheaper and thus allow them to continue to make and sell goods on the GTN.

 

The individual player can choose to do whatever they want, spend less/wait longer or spend more/get sooner and either craft for themselves or sell on the GTN but recognize their margins are going to be lower than the margins of the player using gathering missions so their profits smaller.

 

And again, because now there is another method to get even more materials into the economy/system and faster to boot, convenience will rule and supply will increase even at greater cost and the stated goal of wanting accessibility for these materials will be met and thus with greater supply, we'll see prices lowered but not completely rock bottom like they were for just a few days.

 

Thanks.

 

This is reasonable. Since this morning I stated we will most likely see this patched again to bring it back in line. I have a hard time believing we won't see one more adjustment. The original value was too generous but this most recent change almost feels like a temporary fix so they can talk about the final changes. I think most people agree what they need was FAR beyond what was necessary. It should not, however, replace general crafting.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Arkerus

[Heat-Wave]

Heh... so now we have to do their job for them..... on something that really only requires normal human levels of common sense??

 

I think they can simply refer to the classic "Goldilocks" kids story and figure it out on their own. OR... maybe not.

 

I keep saying it... they don't know what they are doing...

[Neglience]

you can run 22 x 6 missions at the same time per server using crafting missions. thats a lot of mats..with the lower prices for the mats people would not spend near as much time using the slots. the devs didnt begin to let enough data collect for the market to stabilize. they catered to the mat gougers and pissed off a large portion of the player base.

 

1000 mats per day? 3000 jawa junk? you would get carpal tunnel before even coming close to that. if someone is using a bot or macro, deal with them under the tos. gathering skills can be macroed to auto gather, should the make nodes only spawn 1 time a week to fix this?

 

Takes about 8 hours to get 1000 mats. If you want this amount with crew skills, well it will take weeks (if you have a lot of alts and run those missions all the time.

[Andryah]

This is reasonable. Since this morning I stated we will most likely see this patch again to bring it back in line. I have a hard time believing we won't see one more adjustment. The original value was too generous but this most recent change almost feels like a temporary fix so they can talk about the final changes.

 

Heh.. and if they do.... then people who put coins in the slot after today's patch will create threads complaining about getting ripped off between patches.

 

Clearly.. they have driven this one so far into the ditch I don't think they can get past the loss of trust from this cascade of changes to one item... even if they eventually get the loot table set to somewhere in the middle range from these two extremes.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Andryah

[ivanhedgehog]

While I do not support the way BW handled things with the Slot Machine, I am fairly baffled that a mishandling of a quirky little stronghold decoration has caused this much of a blow-up, with people claiming they've unsubbed over it. Yeah they screwed things up, but they screwed things up in relation to a really minor aspect of the game.

 

Obviously your money is your own, and you can subscribe or unsubscribe on any basis you want whatsoever, but if I was a dev I'd be looking at these threads and wondering what freaking twilight zone I dropped into where this is what has people worked up.

 

they screwed people out of real $$$$$$. when coin of the realm is involved, people get serious real fast.

[Khevar]

"I must have put a decimal point in the wrong place or something. ****! I always do that. I always mess up some mundane detail."

 

"This is not a mundane detail Michael!!"

Edited January 21, 2015 by Khevar

[NSaynKnutt]

With those in mind, we decided to make the following changes, which will be live tomorrow:

• The drop rate on all Jawa scraps, has been greatly reduced
  
• The drop rate on Contraband Reputation items, has been increased
  
• To insure that the Slot Machine is still an awesome item to strive for, we have added a faction specific walker mount as a very rare drop
  
• Lastly, we have increased the cost of each Slot Machine coin from 500 to 750 credits. It was always our intent that the coin cost would increase over time as we add more Slot Machines that accept the coin
  

Thanks everyone!

 

-eric

 

You forgot to mention you were nerfing cert drops and that you added the leftover percentages to the loss rate.

 

Also, now that reddit has posted the actual drop chances, you're insane if you think that anyone will be wasting credits on those machines for anything other than rep. The chances for a mount (or anything else, for that matter) are a joke.

[EnkiduNineEight]

^^ in a nut shell.

 

 

 

 

Heh... so now we have to do their job for them..... on something that really only requires normal human levels of common sense??

 

I think they can simply refer to the classic "Goldilocks" kids story and figure it out on their own. OR... maybe not.

 

Mostly my post was an attempt to encourage more people to post constructive ideas and focus on solutions and the future because the whining (from both sides) needs to stop. It wasn't bait and switch, it's unlikely either level was actually intended, more than anything, the simplest explanation here is that someone got tossed a coding project and just had no idea how math/probabilities worked and/or made a big mistake.

 

I get that its frustrating, I know I haven't spent a single token on the slot since the changes were implemented because they are no where near worth the 500 credits I spent for them in advance of the change. Net worth, per credit, of the token is significantly diminished even though I bought them cheaper than the present 750 coin asking price.

 

The slots as is are a complete losing proposition and the correction was too much. I think most of us are in agreement that it was a bit steep.

 

So, lets offer BioWare constructive feedback and act like adults as opposed to a pack of entitled children and I think then perhaps things will be better. First, we should all feel better because well.. we're not generating bilious vitriol to spit on our screens. Second, because we'll at least have the illusion of being part of the solution.

 

I'd love to see the gloating stop too. I was one of those people that knew the machine was going to be adjusted. It _had_ to be adjusted because it obviously was such a 'pay2win' introduction that you now have tens of people screaming they are cancelling and want refunds because of the change. But knowing it was going to be adjusted and suggesting for it to be adjusted, really isn't good enough cause to try to bathe in the tears of people who are upset. It does no good, it doesn't benefit the situation. Just makes you appear to be an evil git.

 

I would like a solution. I think an acceptable medium is available. If I have to spend 8-12k in credits to receive a purple jawa scrap item while also receiving other stuff along the way (green and blue mats, cartel market certs, a chance at a new vehicle, etc) I am willing to make that expense. It is a higher expense than would be spent if I used crew skill missions, but its also faster and more 'convenient'. Machine would still hold significant value but would not be destructive to crafting/gathering.

 

Suggested credit cost above is only off the cuff. I think that theyhave enough knowledge of the rate of return for purple mats via gathering missions and the average cost per mat, to come up with a fair markup for getting them 'easy mode' through a slot machine.

Edited January 21, 2015 by EnkiduNineEight

[RahaylaCora]

Heh.. and if they do.... then people who put coins in the slot after today's patch will create threads complaining about getting ripped off between patches.

 

Clearly.. they have driven this one so far into the ditch I don't think they can get past the loss of trust from this cascade of changes to one item... even if they eventually get the loot table set to somewhere in the middle range from these two extremes.

I bought a few stacks of coins, knowing the new price for the coins. I just spent 2 stacks to see how the machine is working now. It is so broken that i will keep the few other stacks until I see a fix for this. If in a reasonable time seems they won't do nothing about this, I will burn them, and will forget about the "funny toy". Can't believe the actual change is working as intended.

 

If I had bought coins at the new price, i would be more annoyed.

[RahaylaCora]

Constructive solution? Mine: machine was good as it was originally. The problem was not the machine, but the overuse. Even if you can spend only 20 coins a day (just an example), for the long term the machine has its utility, you can still try to play it getting random items. Nodes in strongholds are limited, because overuse breaks the gathering part of crafting. It is so clear to me that what must be nerfed is the use, not the drops... Edited January 21, 2015 by RahaylaCora

[EnkiduNineEight]

Heh.. and if they do.... then people who put coins in the slot after today's patch will create threads complaining about getting ripped off between patches.

 

Clearly.. they have driven this one so far into the ditch I don't think they can get past the loss of trust from this cascade of changes to one item... even if they eventually get the loot table set to somewhere in the middle range from these two extremes.

 

Anyone who tries to make this complain would deserve to be slapped.

 

First, Eric's 'initial' post on the matter when people found out just how generous the slots were and started reporting them (I know I was bugging it in game long before I posted on it) was to let the community know.. go ahead, play your slots, we're not going to take any action for 'exploits' etc regarding the slots and their current drop rate.

 

He also very clearly states they recognize the concerns and will look into it and adjust accordingly.

 

To ANYONE with rationality, this is a clear indication that, now is the time to play slots until your fingers are blistered, then, until your toes are blistered, then your nose, then your tongue, just keep pressing buttons until you are physically incapable of doing so and then find someone to take your place at the computer and do the same because there is likely to be a change coming.

 

So, on the day of the change, you have to patch the game. Patch clearly says drop rate has changed. Doesn't matter if he did not post the exact changes, or listed out every nuance of it, we know that rate of drops changed and chance of speeder increased (from 0% to mostly 0% but its still an increase)

 

Anyone with the rationality to know that they were getting away with something before, but it was OK to do it because BioWare said.. have at it.... should also know. well change has been made, lets hear what people are finding out. or be careful about their initial runs and make sure not to overcommit.

 

So, if you went and blew tokens like you were expecting results as per prior to the patch it is completely on the user and not on BioWare and not their place to have to 'make up for' the tokens you spent while the machine was broken with version 1.1 from its previous broken 1.0. If anything, you should be expecting that the machine would be overcorrected (just not how crazily overcorrected it ended up being).

 

But if you ran out and spent real cash or lots of in game credits to acquire the slot AFTER Eric's statement, then you're totally not deserving of any consideration. his statement clearly indicated it would be reviewed and adjusted and just gave everyone carte blanche permission to continue using it as is until such a time as they reviewed it.

 

I do agree though that its a public relations problem. and I would suggest (and have suggested) that every minute of additional delay in commenting on the 'fix' is costing them significantly more than they might like.

[dscount]

NOTHING about Cartel Certificates was mentioned.. but the drop rate has gone to crap in this change.

 

WHO does the numbers in the back room? They really need to be fired.. The slot machines and 16m SM loot are two great screw ups in the past 2 months that should actioned.

[Theeko]

they screwed people out of real $$$$$$. when coin of the realm is involved, people get serious real fast.

 

They also screwed 2 years worth of items that were only exclusive to paying real $ for as well

[Heat-Wave]

Heh.. and if they do.... then people who put coins in the slot after today's patch will create threads complaining about getting ripped off between patches.

 

Clearly.. they have driven this one so far into the ditch I don't think they can get past the loss of trust from this cascade of changes to one item... even if they eventually get the loot table set to somewhere in the middle range from these two extremes.

 

Naa, just set it to 50% of what it was last week, that would be fine.

 

I get that it was a bit much. Now it is just stupid low...

 

Middle ground people...

[Exastify]

They also screwed 2 years worth of items that were only exclusive to paying real $ for as well

 

^^ This so much. What about those people that spent hundreds of dollars to end up with 10 cartel certs? All of a sudden free to play noncontributors could get a stack of them on the slot machine, and make money on top of it.

 

It's just common sense. Oh, Bioware released a machine that completely devalues cartel certificates and crew missions? That is definitely going to stay in the game as-is If you wanted to play the slot machine, you should have just played on the numerous publicly available ones in various strongholds and guildships. There was no shortage of them.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Exastify

[DarthOvertone]

Let’s talk about the changes coming to the Contraband Slot Machine. When we were going into 3.0.2, we wanted to make Grade 11 materials more accessible to more players than they were at the time. As you know, we simultaneously put in the Contraband Slot Machine, which afforded you a fairly good chance to get Jawa Junk and other Jawa vendor scrap parts. This had two effects:

• It had the risk of taking the Grade 11 material costs in the economy, in the long term, to a price below where we would like
  
• It created a situation where it could be more profitable to completely ignore crew skills by use of the Slot Machine
  

With those in mind, we decided to make the following changes, which will be live tomorrow:

• We will be nerfing the Contraband Slot Machine into the dirt.
  

Thanks everyone!

 

-eric

 

There. Fixed it for you.

[Andryah]

So, lets offer BioWare constructive feedback and act like adults as opposed to a pack of entitled children and I think then perhaps things will be better. First, we should all feel better because well.. we're not generating bilious vitriol to spit on our screens. Second, because we'll at least have the illusion of being part of the solution.

 

That ship sailed and sunk already, IMO.

 

Collectively, we did that over the last week -----> ignoring radical extreme opinions floated by some...... common consensus = Jawa Junk drops are too rich, tone them down. Eric acknowledged the concern and said they would review it.

 

They completely did their own thing here with the correction in this patch, going waaaaaaayyyy beyond what community consensus advised.

 

Personally, I am not heavily invested in the slots (emotionally, or financially)... so I don't care that much what they do. However, that said, there is simply no way to justify what they did with this patch on the slots. It's over the top and lacks any sense of balance or reason.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Andryah

[EnkiduNineEight]

They also screwed 2 years worth of items that were only exclusive to paying real $ for as well

 

Prety much true. Real money was how the majority ofcrates/hypercrates were purchased, but some people were able to amass reputation buy purchasing hypercrates/crates sold on the gtn.

 

Still this is a good point. Cartel market certificates were being handed out like candy by the new slots and thus devaluing peoples prior access to reputation vendors which had a much higher either real world or in game currency cost.