The REAL Most Powerful Force Users - Rebooted

[Beniboybling]

Some new and expanded feats for Kyp Durron, namely he was seemingly capable of obliterating a shuttle:

 

The corvette lashed out with plasma cannons and magma missiles, and Anakin's display filled with streaks of red energy. Nothing wrong with Big Eye's sensor package. Kyp had destroyed the shuttle ... how? The Force? It didn't seem possible. Only the most powerful Jedi could use it that way...

 

--Taken from Star by Star

 

The Leviathan feat is also made even more impressive by the fact it could withstand being dumped in lava:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5036106-lava+1.png

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5036107-lava+2.png

[Beniboybling]

This took a little while to complete. Anywhere here is my complete analysis of Alter.

 

1. Arcann possessed immense offensive telekinesis, telekinetically dominating Heskal and the Outlander.

Throughout there engagement Arcann repeatedly blows the Outlander away with Force pushes:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4873049-1766022748-zhOaT.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4873077-5277011404-3jkJE.gif

 

Nonchalantly relieves the Outlander of their weapon with the Force:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4873521-9966223666-Ix17m.gif

 

And ragdolls the Outlander repeatedly, in the second instance pulling them onto his lightsaber:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4873116-3155488754-U0L-r.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4873103-9068447334-pcMPk.gif

 

vs. Kyp Durron

 

In comparison Kyp Durron was able to ragdoll Corran Horn with culpable ease:

"It doesn't matter," Corran said. "This mission isn't authorized."

 

Kyp looked up. "I authorized it."

 

He flicked his wrist, and Corran went sailing across the hangar back toward Kenth and the other Jedi. It was a particularly insulting dismissal, since Corran could not respond in kind, having never been able to master the skill of Force telekinesis.

 

--Taken from Dark Nest II: The Unseen Queen

And as one of the New Jedi Order's premier masters and a member of the Jedi Council, this surely compares in magnitude to ragdolling and disarming the Outlander, especially considering it was done with ease.

 

vs. Darth Malgus

 

In comparison Malgus was able to seize Lord Adraas in the Force mid-leap before his prime:

Adraas growled as he climbed to his feet. Power gathered around him, a black storm of energy, and he leapt at Malgus, his blade held high.

 

Malgus sneered, gestured, seized Adraas in his power, and pulled him from the air at the apex of his leap.

 

Adraas hit the ground in a heap, his breath coming in wheezes. He climbed to all fours, then to his feet, favoring his side, his blade held limply before him.

 

--Taken from Deceived

Was capable of blowing Aryn Leneer away with his Force pushes, although she was able to recover:

Malgus bounced up from the somersault and loosed a telekinetic blast that lifted Aryn from her feet and blew her across the hangar. She slammed into one of the shuttle’s bulkheads, but used the Force to cushion the blow so that it did no harm.

--Taken from Deceived

And finally was capable of blowing away the likes of the Hero of Tython, Nox, Wrath etc. with his TK:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4487499-2735228515-m8eBr.gif

 

Malgus' showings are undoubtedly impressive, however though he has blown away powerful individuals, nowhere has he managed to break through the Force barriers of anyone of the Outlander's level.

 

vs. Cade Skywalker

 

In comparison Cade was able to telekinetically overpower Darth Talon repeatedly, dominating her in combat:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4235895-sith+cade+tk+talon.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4236140-cade+tk+domination.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4236086-jedi+cade+tk+darth+talon.jpg

 

This is a very impressive, and the physical trauma he was able to inflict on her suggests the ability to ragdoll. However though powerful Darth Talon is not in the same league as the Outlander..

Altogether I that Kyp establishes parity with Arcann in terms of dominating over Force sensitives, but I would not say that Cade and Malgus have the feats to suggest they would be capable of overpowering the Outlander in a similar manner. Instead it is likely that the Outlander would prove a significant challenge for them to overcome.

 

2. Arcann was able to use the Force to cushion himself from considerable physical trauma, emerging unscathed.

Suffers seemingly no injury after being crushed by a massive pillar and tonnes of subsequent rubble:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4873702-9938976809-8qRiw.gif

 

vs Kyp Durron

 

I would not think the weight of this pillar much compares to an artificial singularity, so its seems likely that Kyp would be capable of preventing it from crushing him.

 

vs. Darth Malgus

 

Well before his prime Malgus was capable of preventing tonnes of metal and duracrete from crushing him:

Malgus stood in a pocket under a mountain of rubble, legs bent, the power from his upraised hands preventing several tons of duracrete and steel from crushing him. Dust made his already troubled breathing more difficult. He coughed as the words of his father echoed in his mind.

 

--Taken from The Third Lesson

I think it stands to reason that decades later, when Malgus had experienced several significant growths in power, that Malgus would be able to withstand impact of such intensity, especially considering here he was injured.

 

vs. Cade Skywalker

 

As far as lifting heavy objects goes, despite being out of practice in the Force, Cade was able to lift and hurl a massive chunk of debris that presumably weighed a several tonnes:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4235825-young+cade+tk+ship+%281o3%29.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4235826-young+cade+tk+ship+%282o3%29.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4235827-young+cade+tk+ship+%283o3%29.jpg

 

After growing notably be more powerful, cushioning himself from a pillar shouldn't be outside his abilities.

Altogether I would say that Arcann is gaining any edges with this feat, they should all be capable of it.

 

3. Arcann's Force Lightning was able to obliterate HK-55 and cause potentially crippling injury to the Outlander.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4873502-8788125619-FtAse.gif

 

"HK-55 sacrificed himself to save your life during the confrontation with Arcann on Asylum. There seems to be no hope of rebuilding him."

 

--Taken from Knights of the Fallen Empire

 

Arcann was also capable of summoning Force lightning in powerful bursts strikes of energy:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4873526-1496071239-nocBe.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4873535-8797294274-V65oF.gif

 

vs. Kyp Durron

 

In comparison at a young age Kyp could incinerating living tissue, reducing a pair of rats to bones:

 

Alarmed, Kyp lost control of his anger for an instant and let fly a searing blast of power that followed the two rodents down their narrow tunnels and incinerated them as they ran. Blackened bones tumbled forward with the momentum, then slumped to dust in the stone tunnel.

 

--Taken from Dark Apprentice

As a feat from his teens with this is very impressive, and if applied to a person he'd probably blow off a limb, or burn a hole in them. In the prime of his power therefore destroying a droid is certainly within his capabilities.

 

Kyp also as a teen was able to call down a bolt of lightning powerful enough to kill a Leviathan:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5038771-7739377090-41273.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5038772-9702244758-50361.png

 

Noting that said these Leviathans were capable of withstanding being bathed in lava:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5038773-5981955121-50361.png

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5038774-1544345429-50361.png

 

So Kyp is channelling immense amounts of energy here, certainly sufficient to cripple the Outlander, and though he was only manipulating the power of the weather, this feat was performed decades before his prime.

 

vs. Darth Malgus

 

Before his prime a blast of Malgus' Force lightning a single discharge killing two armoured Padawans instantly and Jedi Knight after a few moments of agony:

Malgus, not to be outdone, picked a Jedi Knight at random, a human female ten meters away, held forth his left hand, and discharged veins of blue lightning from his fingertips. The jagged lines of energy cut a swath through the battle, harvesting two Padawans as they went, until they caught up to the Jedi Knight and lifted her off her feet.

 

She screamed as the lightning ripped into her, her flesh made temporarily translucent from the dark power coursing through her. Malgus savored her pain as she died.

 

--Taken from Deceived

A charged burst therefore, at the prime of his power, one would assume would be sufficient to destroy HK, who is no less heavily armoured and also lacks Force defenses.

 

Malgus was also, after a growth in power but still before his prime, capable casually of KO'ing Aryn Leneer:

As Aryn prepared to leap at Malgus, he held forth a hand, almost casually, and lightning sizzled through the space between them. Aryn interposed her lightsabers, but the power in the lightning exceeded anything she had felt from Malgus before. It blasted through her defenses and both lightsabers flew from her hands. The lightning seized her, lifted her up, and threw her from the top of the shuttle.

 

As she flew toward the deck, she smelled burning flesh, heard screaming, realized that it was her flesh, her screams. She hit the ground hard and her head bounced off the ground. Sparks erupted in her brain, pain, and everything went dark.

 

--Taken from Decieved

A charged burst is going to be significantly more powerful, especially when Malgus is in his prime, and casually humbling the protags with his lightning:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4487500-4359773626-44874.gif

 

And considering Leneer is capable of hurling half a dozen tram cars, she is not that far off the protags, especially in a fatigued condition. So I would warrant that a similar attack from Malgus could prove deadly as well.

 

And as far as mastery over Force lightning is concerned, Malgus was a master of the Force maelstrom, a precusor to the Force storm, so his demonstrated talent in that field actually exceeds what Arcann has demonstrated.

 

vs. Cade Skywalker

 

With his Force lightning, Cade Skywalker was capable of incapacitating a Sith trooper, leaving it for dead:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4236131-jedi+cade+vs+sith+trooper+master+%282o2%29.jpg

 

And he was also significantly more powerful than Darth Nihl, who one-shotted Kol Skywalker with his Lightning, though it should be noted that Kol was unlikely to be at full strength are killing scores of Sith:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4533700-kills+kol.png

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4533702-kills+kol2.png

 

Sith troopers are tremendously strong and durable, so Cade's ability to nigh-one shot a commander is very impressive, and would suggest he could destroy HK at the very least with a charged burst.

 

His superiority over an individual who could kill a fatigued Kol Skywalker is also comparable to at least critically injure a fatigued Outlander, so it that respect he definitely compares to Arcann's abilities.

Altogether all three pretty much demonstrate they could replicate these feats, although bar Malgus' mastery over the Force maelstrom, I would not give any of them an advantage over Arcann in this field.

 

4. Arcann possessed a nigh impenetrable defense, withstanding the power of Emperor Valkorion unscathed.

The majority of candidates lack feats that can be directly compared here so I am going to consider them collectively. First of all it is important to understand the magnitude of power being exerted here.

 

In the past Valkorion, as Vitiate, was able to conjure a Force lightning storm that rapidly overpowered Revan, which he was unable to contain, and would have killed him if not for the intervention of T3-M4:

Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.

 

A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

 

Revan's body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.

 

Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.

 

The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.

 

--Taken from The Old Republic: Revan

Arcann muses that Valkorion is weakened in this instance, and is indeed channeling his power through an inferior vessel, but Valkorion has had over 300 years to grow more powerful, a power described as "ever-increasing", during which he consumed the Ziost. When he did this on Nathema, he became much stronger:

Lord Vitiate takes command of the Sith Empire, now in shambles following the Great Hyperspace War. He executes the Sith Council and consumes the life force of thousands of Sith Lords in a terrifying ritual that extends his life and vastly increases his capacity as a practitioner of the Force.

 

--Taken from SWTOR Encyclopedia

And though thousands of Sith Lords were present here, much of that energy would have been expended in performing the ritual itself. On Ziost, Vitiate only actually needed his own (restored) power to pull it off.

 

So we should consider that his powers have significantly increased to a similar extent, which he observes:

"Ziost. The world where everything changed. For me, you… the galaxy.

 

…They died opening my eyes to the truth. I have passed beyond death’s reach.

 

…Voices… Hands… Children… I no longer require those crude vessels. At long last I am truly free."

 

--Valkorion, in Knights of the Fallen Empire

So though Valkorion is weakened, he is much more powerful than Vitiate, and the magnitude of energy he is summoning here outstrips what he directed at Revan.

 

In this respect it should be considered at least comparable in intensity, and Arcann withstood it indefinitely. That puts Arcann in a league firmly above Revan at this time, however considering at this stage Revan has demonstrated tremendous power, for example easily containing and deflecting a Force storm from Darth Nyriss, lifting and hurling asteroids weighing hundreds of tonnes and siphoning the power of Malachor V from orbit, I would not say this can be claimed at least of Malgus or Cade, and perhaps not even of Kyp.

 

In this respect I would say that Arcann demonstrates superiority over all of them with this showing.

Conclusively, I would say that though Cade and Malgus compare to Arcann in manipulating objects and Force lightning, Arcann surpasses them in terms of breaking Force barriers and his own defenses, his ability to withstand Valkorion's power placing him a league above.

 

In terms of Kyp he compares in more respects, but there is still little evidence he could handle Valkorion's power.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Beniboybling

[Wolfninjajedi]

I've seen it, very nice. Maybe when I've got some more time I'll give it a proper look over, could be a good contender for the Hunger Games, mmm.

 

Anyway I have a complete analysis of the current candidates I'm in the process of completing so I'll post that soon.

 

In the mean time please continue to share your thoughts everyone, the more voices the better.

 

Check again, I also made a Prince Xizor RT go look at it!

[Beniboybling]

Yeah the Xizor one is what I read, I've also read the Mighella one. But I tend to only read these things in depth when I have use for it. On topic, does anyone have any thoughts? I'd rather not stall now.

[cs_zoltan]

I'm kinda on a break from debating, so just a few bulletpoints:

 

 

• You keep denying that Talon is in the same league as the weakened Outlander, so I won't even bother. But you forgot to factor in the fact that Talon was made Cade's ***** on a dark side nexus of the Sith Temple.
  
• Same with Cade vs Krayt
  
• You incorrectly assume just because Valkorion > Revan Vitiate that means weakened Valkorion = Revan Vitiate. Proof? The Force Storm he channeled through the Outlander is hardly beyond the likes of Starkiller and Co.
  
• Arcann can't withstand that indefinetly. He was visibly strained from the start. Only because the kinetic energy was the first that overwhelmed him doesn't mean the Lightning couldn't have done the same.
  

[Beniboybling]

I'm kinda on a break from debating, so just a few bulletpoints

Fair enough, it appears Aurbere and Rhyltran have gone AWOL as well though.

IYou keep denying that Talon is in the same league as the weakened Outlander, so I won't even bother. But you forgot to factor in the fact that Talon was made Cade's ***** on a dark side nexus of the Sith Temple.

[*]Same with Cade vs Krayt

When the temple is never explicitly noted to be a nexus I don't think its wise to assume they were drawing on it, or at least that it amplified their powers at all considerably. Not that I'm denying it had dark side power.

 

Though Cade isn't exactly one to shy away from tapping into the dark side either.

You incorrectly assume just because Valkorion > Revan Vitiate that means weakened Valkorion = Revan Vitiate. Proof? The Force Storm he channeled through the Outlander is hardly beyond the likes of Starkiller and Co.

Because Valkorion has vastly increased in power, and the feat is of far greater magnitude, implying greater effort. There is no evidence that suggests Valkorion was so considerably weakened that his advancement would be nullified.

 

And SK has achieved a similar radius, but its never been sustained. Nor do magnitude and power directly correlate, lest we assume Dooku's lightning is as powerful as Sidious' because they are visually similar.

Arcann can't withstand that indefinetly. He was visibly strained from the start. Only because the kinetic energy was the first that overwhelmed him doesn't mean the Lightning couldn't have done the same.

in·def·i·nite

ˌinˈdef(ə)nət/

adjective

lasting for an unknown or unstated length of time.

 

My point being that Arcann could have lasted an indeterminable length beyond what he did.

 

Anyway, I'm not seeing a consensus in sight here, and there is also the added factor that Arcann's story isn't finished yet. He's bound to get more feats that will help us more accurately assess his character and perhaps more light will be shed on just what condition the Outlander is currently in.

 

So unless we can reach an agreement here, it might be better to leave him for the honourable mentions. :mmm:

 

Either way I'll try and work off my comparison to establish where things stand between Cade, Kyp and Malgus.

[tunewalker]

Fair enough, it appears Aurbere and Rhyltran have gone AWOL as well though. When the temple is never explicitly noted to be a nexus I don't think its wise to assume they were drawing on it, or at least that it amplified their powers at all considerably. Not that I'm denying it had dark side power.

 

Though Cade isn't exactly one to shy away from tapping into the dark side either.Because Valkorion has vastly increased in power, and the feat is of far greater magnitude, implying greater effort. There is no evidence that suggests Valkorion was so considerably weakened that his advancement would be nullified.

 

And SK has achieved a similar radius, but its never been sustained. Nor do magnitude and power directly correlate, lest we assume Dooku's lightning is as powerful as Sidious' because they are visually similar.in·def·i·nite

ˌinˈdef(ə)nət/

adjective

lasting for an unknown or unstated length of time.

 

My point being that Arcann could have lasted an indeterminable length beyond what he did.

 

Anyway, I'm not seeing a consensus in sight here, and there is also the added factor that Arcann's story isn't finished yet. He's bound to get more feats that will help us more accurately assess his character and perhaps more light will be shed on just what condition the Outlander is currently in.

 

So unless we can reach an agreement here, it might be better to leave him for the honourable mentions. :mmm:

 

Either way I'll try and work off my comparison to establish where things stand between Cade, Kyp and Malgus.

 

For now I agree with Arcann as "honorable mention" because some of his feats are very "vague" in the sense we CAN call them strong and high, but its just as likely they arent really as high as is being portrayed here. Honestly I dont see any reason the other 3 COULDNT have held off Valkoriens lightning for the same amount of time. We dont know how long he was away from breaking, and we have seen people hold off attacks from much more powerful opponents to them for a short time as it is.

[cs_zoltan]

Though Cade isn't exactly one to shy away from tapping into the dark side either.

 

Yes, but it's always made clear when he uses the Dark Side. He has yellow/red eyes when using the Dark Side, and his normal green when not.

 

Like Cade vs Nihl in Legacy #19: http://puu.sh/n0viP/92361b3a1d.jpg

And then there's Cade vs Krayt in Legacy War #6: http://puu.sh/n0vlU/d1efc3f740.jpg

 

Which is logical since he "returned" to the Light Side in Legacy #46: http://i.imgur.com/l4hfImz.jpg

[Beniboybling]

Ah fair enough, that clears up my doubts regarding his alignment.

 

Also, regarding my unfamiliarity with Legacy, are there any key power growths he experienced over the course of the comics, and over what time span to they actually take place?

[Rhyltran]

Alright, I'm going to go back and re-read through most of this. Sorry Beni for my absence. I ran out of subscription time but that won't be a problem for awhile now.

[cs_zoltan]

Ah fair enough, that clears up my doubts regarding his alignment.

 

Also, regarding my unfamiliarity with Legacy, are there any key power growths he experienced over the course of the comics, and over what time span to they actually take place?

 

Well the most obvious ones:

• Once he stopped using the Death Sticks.
  
• His Jedi and Sith training.
  
• Going back to the light side.
  
• During the War itself.
  

 

I'll elaborate on the last: Cade fought Talon in Legacy War #3, and then they fight again in Legacy War #5, where Talon notes that Cade is more powerful than before: http://puu.sh/n0wDC/1b68b9f97e.jpg

 

Edit: The main events take 1 year, and the Massacre at Ossus (Legacy #1) is 7 years before the main event.

Edited February 8, 2016 by cs_zoltan

[Beniboybling]

Alright, I'm going to go back and re-read through most of this. Sorry Beni for my absence. I ran out of subscription time but that won't be a problem for awhile now.

No worries, I was concerned because the site wouldn't let me PM you. Good to have you back.

[Rhyltran]

No worries, I was concerned because the site wouldn't let me PM you. Good to have you back.

 

Thanks. Lol, yeah I got a new job so I was busy and didn't notice my sub lapsed.

[Silenceo]

Just a heads up for you in regards to Arcann, Beni, courtesy of 4.1 patch notes.

 

Arcann’s Lightning Storm in Chapter VIII is now resisted by Force Barrier, and the backlash he suffers now has a description.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Silenceo

[Beniboybling]

Just a heads up for you in regards to Arcann, Beni, courtesy of 4.1 patch notes.

 

What are you implying.

[Silenceo]

What are you implying.

 

You know that I know that you know that I know what you know about knowing about me knowing what you know in concern to Arcann, so don't say you don't know what you know when I know that you know.

[that_Spartan_IV]

Wait, why is Valkorion above Yoda and Plagueis?

[Beniboybling]

Wait, why is Valkorion above Yoda and Plagueis?

Keep up.

 

But really, see here for some reference material on that verdict.

 

You might also want to look at the debate surrounding it.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Beniboybling

[PadsterPwns]

Keep up.

 

But really, see here for some reference material on that verdict.

 

You might also want to look at the debate surrounding it.

It'll be interesting to see if that verdict changes by the end of KOTFE or not. Well, that's if they decide to end Valky/Vitiate then.

[cs_zoltan]

So unless we can reach an agreement here, it might be better to leave him for the honourable mentions. :mmm:

 

Either way I'll try and work off my comparison to establish where things stand between Cade, Kyp and Malgus.

 

Sooo?

[Beniboybling]

Sooo?

Been rather overwhelmed by RL stuff at the moment.

 

However I have started, so hopefully I'm have something by this weekend.

[Rhyltran]

Been rather overwhelmed by RL stuff at the moment.

 

However I have started, so hopefully I'm have something by this weekend.

 

I'm in the same position. Though, if Arcann is in the honorable mention category. I'm leaning towards Cade. Kyp might have some impressive TK showings but I think Cade is better suited overall. Especially considering it was Cade we were mostly using to "combat" Arcann.

[Beniboybling]

Before I get on to my analysis, I want to make a few remarks regarding Kyp's controversial black hole feat.

 

Namely through the notion that "Size matters not" and "Your focus determines your reality".

 

What does this mean? It means that the difficulty of a feat is as much determined by your perception its nature as by its actual nature. Or to be more specific your perception of an objects size matters just as much as its actual weight.

 

So let's apply that to this feat, where Kyp Durron manipulates an artificial black hole which should logically be extremely dense, however the density of a singularity is something beyond human comprehension, even with knowledge of it, and the void isn't something Kyp can actually see, only sense through the Force, and percieve conceptually.

Within the Force, within the broader range of senses it gave him, he tried to feel the presence of that void. He couldn't feel the Yuuzhan Vong or their creatures, but he could feel distortions in space, hard little nuggets of wrongness where there should be nothing.

 

He felt many of them, but didn't know which belonged to the interdictor, which to the coralskippers, and this rarefied sensory data didn't precisely translate to exact directions and distances. A void that felt far away could be from a coralskipper close at hand.

 

He armed a proton torpedo and fired it. He felt its physical presence as, in a matter of seconds, it closed the distance between him and the interdictor... and was swallowed by another void.

 

He felt it enter the void, felt which of the many singularities it was.

 

And he seized upon that void, directing all his Force abilities and discipline against it.

 

--Taken from The New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream

In this respect "size matters not", because the "size" of the black hole for Kyp exists entirely in his imagination, he has no other way of comprehending its size other than conceptually.

 

This is not the same as say, seeing a planet and attempting to move it, because there is no visual stimulus telling Kyp how heavy the void is, or more importantly that it is too heavy to move.

 

This is going to make it a lot easier to perceive the void as something it is not, namely something lighter, and in general regard the feat as something he can accomplish, rather than impossible. The lack of visual stimulus removes those mental inhibitions. Indeed note how Kyp visualizes the black hole when he attempts to move it:

It was like using a thin metal rod to push a grounded landspeeder. Too much pressure and it would bend, becoming useless. Too little and nothing would happen. He had to find the right pressure to budge it, to set it into motion and keep it going that way...

 

--Taken from The New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream

As a landspeeder being pushed by a metal rod. Still as a difficult feat, but infinitely less difficult that what he's trying to accomplish. The important point being that there is no visual stimulus to conflict with how Kyp sees it in his mind, and without those mental inhibitions in place, it should have been easier to achieve.

 

Now is there an actual precedent for the perception of an object influencing how easy it is to manipulate? Yes.

 

For example when Dooku was just seven years old, Yoda conveyed the principle of "size matters not" to him by having him lift soil of incredibly density, but without giving him any indication of its weight:

I was just over seven years old on the day I crossed paths with him at a garden in the Temple, a research laboratory for the Jedi Agricultural Corps. I found him on a stone path, standing beside a potted long-stemmed plant that had broad, translucent yellow leaves. He gazed up at the delicate leaves, and told me the plant was alien, very rare, the only one of its kind on Coruscant. He said some service droids had left the plant on the path, and he wondered if I might move it onto a nearby patch of grass. I bent to pick up the ceramic pot, but before my fingers touched it, Master Yoda encouraged me to use the Force.

 

Every Jedi learner is trained to move objects, and I had already proved some capability with the skill. I stepped back to examine the rounded shape of the pot and sensed the air around it, then allowed my mind to lock onto the pot. I attempted to visualize it rising from the path, but the pot merely shifted, scratched the surface of the stone that it continued to rest upon.

 

Collecting myself, I focused on the pot's base, confirmed that it was not vacuum-locked to the path, then pushed upward. The pot wobbled, causing the plant's leaves to tremble. Using the Force, I touched the leaves and calmed them, and it was then that I felt the plant's own life energy, something a tractor beam could never do. It had been my error to think of the plant as an inanimate object, rather than something linked to the Force itself.

 

I extended my hold and visualized the pot within a column that extended from the garden floor to the ceiling. Finding myself short of breath, I inhaled, then slowly, slowly, I lifted the pot until it hovered a full meter above the path.

 

I guided the plant through the air and lowered it upon the grass. Although I'd meant for a soft landing, I was surprised when the pot sank a few millimeters into the ground, the base tearing the blades of grass.

 

Master Yoda then said, "Incredibly dense alien soil, that plant can only survive in. Very heavy, the pot is. Neglected to tell you this I did. No matter. The path it blocked no longer." Then he looked me in the eye and said, "Why our paths crossed today, I wonder?"

 

...

 

The lesson that I learned from Master Yoda was that burdens are only as heavy as one imagines, and that - with the Force - any weight can be lifted.

 

--Taken from Jedi vs Sith: An Essential Guide to the Force

Dooku still struggles to lift the pot, but, especially at such a young age, we should assume if he were aware of its weight he would have struggle much more, and perhaps been unable to lift it at all.

 

Another example is when Galen Marek alters the course of a falling Star Destroyer, itself weight hundreds of thousands of tonnes, if not like millions, doing so by using its distance to imagine it infinitely smaller:

“Concentrate on what’s important, boy. That Star Destroyer is coming down fast. You’ll never get clear in time. You need to pull it into the cannon.”

 

The apprentice was temporarily lost for words when he realized what Kota was suggesting.

 

Kota wanted him to move the Star Destroyer using nothing but the Force.

 

“You’re insane,” he gasped. “It’s massive!”

 

“What is mass?” Kota said. “It’s all in your mind, boy. You’re a Jedi! Size means nothing to you!”

 

Kota’s voice had changed. The surly, drunken slur was completely absent; in its place was the durasteel bark of the seasoned combat veteran the apprentice had first met.

 

“Can you hear me, boy? Reach out and grab that ship, or you’ll die on this trash heap!”

 

The Star Destroyer was growing visibly larger and hung like a burning, triangular moon low in the sky of Raxus Prime.

 

You’re a Jedi! Size means nothing to you!

 

He wasn’t a Jedi but the message was the same. The Force didn’t recognize big or small, heavy or light, hard or easy. The living flows of the galaxy encompassed all scales, from the very small to the extremely large. The Star Destroyer was part of it, and so was he. The Force bound them as surely as gravity. He could make its invisible muscles flex, if he dared.

 

...

 

The tip of his right index finger and the Star Destroyer became as one in his mind. Every nut and bolt and plate and wire of the massive machine was contained within that tiny space. It wasn’t hard to move an arm, a finger, a single human cell. He could direct one barely without thinking, so why not the other, too? Instinct was clearer on that point than the workings of his mind. Ignoring perspective, the two were about the same size in his field of vision.

 

Except the Star Destroyer was growing larger with each passing second, and waves of TIE fighters and TIE bombers were pouring forth from its brand-new hangar decks. Laserfire cut huge super-hot channels through the atmosphere ahead of them.

 

The apprentice ignored it all. While the illusion held, he moved his hand a very slight distance to his right. The sensation of containing a vast, million-ton machine in the tip of one finger was deeply disorienting. He felt as though every muscle fiber, nerve, and bone groaned along with the metal seams and joints of the ship. What it felt, he felt, too, and even a small acceleration had a profound effect on such a large scale. It resisted with all the momentum it possessed. Hatches swang open; rivets popped; bulkheads twisted; pipes burst.

 

--Taken from The Force Unleashed novelisation

Now in neither of these examples was visual stimuli entirely absent, especially not in Starkiller's case, and yet the partial alleviation of those mental inhibitions made these feats easier, those barriers are next to none existent for Kyp, so it goes to show just how much of an impact it would have had on the difficulty of the feat.

 

Does this mean the feat is unimpressive? Of course not, "size matters not" isn't a literal claim, size does impact difficulty, but perceptions are just as important, therefore size and difficulty do not directly correlate. And Kyp's ability to manipulate an artificial black hole doesn't mean he can move planets, nor does it make him God-tier as a Force user.

 

In a few words it means the feat should not be taken at face value, and I would think if someone is able to match or surpass Kyp's other telekinetic showings, they should be capable of matching or surpassing this particular feat, with all its extenuating circumstances. However its certainly proof of superiority over anyone who fails to fulfill that criteria.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

I'm in the same position. Though, if Arcann is in the honorable mention category. I'm leaning towards Cade. Kyp might have some impressive TK showings but I think Cade is better suited overall. Especially considering it was Cade we were mostly using to "combat" Arcann.

Not sure on that, Kyp seems thoroughly above Cade in Alter, bar illusions.

[Rhyltran]

Not sure on that, Kyp seems thoroughly above Cade in Alter, bar illusions.

 

Kyp does have more impressive alter showings but let's not forget Cade still has excellent TK showings, the ability to bring people back from death, his illusions, and superior control feats. This is why I said "Cade overall."