The REAL Most Powerful Force Users - Rebooted

[Beniboybling]

Yeah, the slackers. What do you plan to do about it?

Not sure, I'll give it some thought.

On a totally unrelated note: Since I brought up Havok twice and had some scans of him I threw together an RT for him under an hour: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/cs_zoltan/blog/darth-havok-respect-thread/126020/

Nice, seems like a good candidate for the next spot.

[cs_zoltan]

Nice, seems like a good candidate for the next spot.

 

Edited February 29, 2016 by cs_zoltan

[Rhyltran]

Aurbere and Selenial's continued absences presents some problems that may require permanent solutions.

 

However Padster, Jarons and Random have all thrown their support behind Cade, I assume their opinions stand. It definitely has enough endorsements therefore, its merely a question of redefining the Council consensus.

 

I propose Cade as 13. I'm here. I also don't think Aurbere opposes Cade. I have some pms before he went absent let me check them. Will edit back.

 

Here we go:

 

Who do you think the third candidate should be? Personally I truly don't think Malgus is on the level of Cade Skywalker. I've been pming Beni about that.

 

It should be Malgus, Wyyrlok, or Cade. Though, truth be told, none of them are on Arcann's level.

 

If I picked one between Malgus, Wyyrlok, and Cade, it would be Cade by a slight margin. They are all actually really close in power.

 

So Aurb supports Cade in this case. Cade as 13, let's make it happen. I understand his absence makes things complicated from here on out but there's still time. We still got to find the three candidates. I echo Aurbere and support Wyrrlock as another candidate.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Rhyltran

[tunewalker]

I will say this about the Kyp, Corran, and Kenth thing that should be noted. None of the people in this scenario had any force shields up. Remember that Kylo was perfectly capable of holding Rey in place earlier in the movie for Episode VII but couldnt do so when they were fightning later. Corran MAY have been able to stop Kyp had Corran had his defenses up like he did in I, Jedi, just like its likely that Kyp could have stopped Kenth had his defenses been up as well. People have been caught off gaurd with their defenses before all over the place. The Grand Inquisitor when he first ran into Kanan is more powerful then Kanan, but because Kanan got him from behind and off gaurd in desperation he was able to pin him with out the inquisitor being able to break out. This happens litterally all over the place. Force defenses are just like any other defense, they need to be kept up, and any lapse of concentration on those defenses can result in the person getting rag dolled in situations they other wise would not have been.

 

 

Edit: that being said I agree with the Cade thing as well.

Edited March 1, 2016 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

OK, so two important matters I need to cover here.

 

1. The Decision Making Process/Future of the Council

 

Alright so with Selenial and Aurbere absent indefinitely (I've talked to Aurbs, he's busy with a job and has unsubscribed) I feel the best course of action is to dissolve the Council and grant myself emergency powers.

 

Seriously however, the Council needs three full-time members to be effective, and though I've considered forming a new Council, I feel that would limit the number of able endorsers to too small a pool.

 

With that in mind I'm proposing a new system in which I will have sole responsibility over the final decision, however that decision must be endorsed by a minimum three others who have contributed to and/or followed the discussion.

 

Does this seem fair? I'm hoping that it will continue to ensure decisions are made on merit and without biased. And there also exists the possibility of the Council being reinstated in the future if we receive more activity.

 

2. Verdict for #13 and Moving Forward

 

If the above system is acceptable, then with my support behind Cade we've have a total of 5 endorsements. Which is more than enough to put him on the list. After that I would agree with the proposal for Wyyrlok as a candidate.

[cs_zoltan]

Agreed.

[cs_zoltan]

Chop chop

[Beniboybling]

Well if there are no objections...

 

 

Lets get underway.

[Beniboybling]

Compiling my analysis of Control and Alter for reference purposes, I have also revised my Alter comparison.

 

Comparison of Control

 

1. Arcann possessed immense and overpowering Force augmentative strength.

Arcann was capable of overpowering Sith Warriors, and the powerful Sith Lord, Darth Atroxa:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4873227-0789302116-Ri02M.gif

 

He demonstrated a physical advantage over the Outlander, pushing him onto of the back foot:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4874425-8177709120-rhnwu.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4874427-2341793326-q9UKl.gif

 

He quickly and easily overpowered his presumably powerful brother (as a twin), Thexan, although it should be noted that Thexan was caught of guard and was not prepared to fight him:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4873238-6190192176-Hj6tR.gif

 

vs. Kyp Durron

 

In comparison Kyp at age 19, Kyp capably deflected blaster fire from the twin laser cannons on a light freighter:

Kyp, the kid of a Jedi, was standing alone in the middle of the docking bay. Laserfire poured from the Rook's forward guns. And like some weird children's toy, Kyp caught the green killing bolts on his lightsaber and tossed them away. "Fen!" she heard Ghitsa shout. She spun about. Her partner was under the entrance's marginal cover. "It is locked. You'll need to hold them off a few minutes." A few minutes. It was a lifetime in moments like this. She ran back to Kyp. Methodically, even calmly, he deflected each burst of fire. The blasts bounced off the lightsaber, ricocheting at crazy angles.

 

--Taken from Simple Tricks

This is an impressive strength feat, but frankly I would not say at all beyond Arcann considering the tremendous strength he has demonstrated above. Kyp however has simply never demonstrated the kind of overpowering physical ability Arcann has, and instead at age 18, when Kyp was 34, Jaina kept up with him in all respects.

 

vs. Darth Malgus

 

In regards to strength Malgus has demonstrated comparable ability to Arcann, violently dominating and quickly dispatching several Jedi Knights in combat during his attack on the Jedi Temple:

Malgus got his blade up in time, parried, and slammed a kick into the Jedi’s mid-section. The blow folded the Jedi in half, sent him reeling backward five paces.

 

...

 

He parried the chop of a human male, leapt over the low slash of an orange-skinned Togruta female, severed the hand of the third, a female human, disarming her, then grabbed her by the throat with his free hand and slammed her into the floor with his Force-enhanced strength.

 

...

 

He ducked under a slash from the male, lunged forward, and took the Jedi by the throat. He lifted him from his feet and held him suspended in the air, gagging. The Jedi’s brown eyes showed no fear, but did show pain. Malgus roared, squeezed hard, then dropped the body and stood over it, blade at his side, breath coming hard.

 

--Taken from Deceived

And in his prime, Malgus was able to take on four of the galaxy's most powerful champions, including the likes of the Hero of Tython and Emperor's Wrath, in lightsaber combat, who later went on to become the Outlander, and who too would presumably be unable to defeat Malgus alone.

 

Malgus also decimated powerful warriors like Adraas, and well before his prime an exhausted Darach. And with ten years of growth it is likely that he'd dispatch the like with even greater ease, though it is also important to account for the fact that Arcann himself has had five years to expand his own abilities, which in terms of the dark side, were very formative at the time of that showing. In this respect they establish rough parity.

 

vs. Cade Skywalker

 

Much like Arcann and Malgus, Cade has easily dispatched multiple high profile warriors in combat, in particular we see him slaughtering dozens of Sith troopers and Sith who appear to be no match for him:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4236119-jedi+cade+vs+sith+troopers+%281o3%29.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4236106-jedi+cade+vs+sith+lords+2.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4236105-jedi+cade+vs+sith+lords+1.jpg

 

And he stacks up to Arcann in the respect that (I believe before he completed his training/reached his prime) he one-shotted Darth Talon before she could even strike:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11114/111140132/4235888-sith+cade+vs+darth+talon+%26+darth+nihl+%281o4%29.jpg

 

Whose feats would suggest her more powerful than Atroxa, and it seems likely he if can dominate her speed, she'd be no match for his strength either, and that Cade would be able to disarm her in a similar manner.

 

Though factoring in Arcann's 5 year growth in power and in seems unlikely Talon could stand against him either.

 

Finally Cade can be considered arguably comparable to blitzing Thexan when caught of guard by surprising and killing Darth Krayt, an individual considerably more powerful, with a single attack:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11114/111140132/4236091-jedi+cade+vs+darth+krayt+%285o6%29.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11114/111140132/4236093-jedi+cade+vs+darth+krayt+%286o6%29.jpg

 

Which I think does enough to demonstrate that Cade can prove lethal when even supremely powerful Force users lower there guard. Though unlike Krayt, Thexan had the advantage of raising his blade to defend himself.

Altogether as far as Force augmentation goes, I would say that Malgus and Cade stack up to Arcann's performance on Korriban, and there feats suggest it unlikely the Outlander would have any physical advantage over them either.

 

Altogether I would afford anyone an edge over Arcann here however, for even though Cade has blitzed much more powerful opponents, we should account for Krayt being even less prepared, and Arcann being 5 years from his prime.

 

Though in regards to Kyp, I don't believe he has really anywhere demonstrated this level of physical ability.

 

2. Arcann was able to endure considerable physical injury.

Arcann recovered from being caught in an explosion which burnt his face and damaged his arm. Arcann had his arm amputated and a mask drilled onto his face in the field, presumably without any anesthetic:

"Today, I watched my face burn. The skin cracked and curled as fire seared away the moisture. Charred flesh retreated from the heat and shriveled into a huddled black mass. One blue eye, identical to my own, held me in place--made me watch. In an instant, it was the face of a stranger. And we were no longer twins.

 

The memory tugged at my hand, pulled it to my cheek. I was startled by the smoothness that met the pads of my fingertips. My brother’s phantom grip still clutched my arm. I felt the bones beneath his skin reach out, try to escape the pain, and fail. Arcann had writhed for hours before sleep granted him mercy....

 

Our healers tried to save Arcann’s arm, but were unsuccessful. He was fitted with a cybernetic replacement in the field. As for the burns on his face...

 

My brother’s presence pulled at my attention. I hurried to the adjoining tent. Three droids and two healers stood over Arcann. I winced at the shrill sound of drilling. Arcann’s remaining fist clenched the sheets as they fitted him with a durasteel mask...

 

My brother stared at the ceiling. The mask covered more than half of his face and wrapped around the back of his skull. There was nothing human about its design - it was meant to intimidate as Arcann demanded. Scorched skin peeked from the edges, a testament to the ruined visage beneath.

 

Alone, Arcann relaxed. His exposed left brow knotted in pain as he looked down at the cybernetic arm. My stomach churned, as we both assessed the day’s losses...

 

I could feel the rage building inside of him. A rage I did not share."

 

--Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Brothers

vs. Kyp Durron

 

In comparison, when he was only 18, Kyp was able to crush his legs, arms and rib cage, entering a hibernation trance to surviving the vacuum of space for a short period without any life support:

"Kyp," Han shouted. His voice cracked with astonished joy, yet he tried to hold back his hope. "Kyp!"

 

Somehow Kyp had crammed himself inside the small volume of the message cylinder, a vessel barely large enough to hold a child. But Kyp had managed to crush his legs, fold his arms until the bones snapped, pressed down on his rib cage until ribs cracked, compacting himself.

 

Han leaned closer to the ashen face. "Is he alive? He's in some kind of Jedi trance." In his final desperation Kyp had somehow found the strength to use his Jedi pain-blocking techniques, his determination, and all the knowledge Luke had taught him... to do this to himself, as his only chance for survival.

 

"He's slowed his functions almost to the point of suspended animation," Mara said. "He's in so deep that he might as well be dead." The message canister was airtight but had no life-support systems, no air other than the small amount that had fit around his own broken body.

 

--Taken from Champions of the Force

This is a very impressive feat of endurance, especially considering it was well before his adult prime. I think it more than compares to recovering from the injuries Arcann sustained on Korriban.

 

vs. Darth Malgus

 

In comparison, well before his prime we have Malgus enduring a missile to the face:

 

 

Being blown up by a concussion grenade at point blank range.

 

 

Then being slammed against a cliff face and hit with a blast sufficient to blow said cliff face apart:

 

 

More than suggests he could endure these level of injuries, noting that like Arcann, he later resumed fighting and killed several Jedi with renewed strength, so altogether he more than compares here.

 

vs. Cade Skywalker

 

In terms of physical endurance, Cade was able to endure the Embrace of Pain:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4235875-sith+cade+embrace+of+pain.jpg

 

Which though impressive, I wouldn't say is the kind of pain Arcann is like to succumb to, nonetheless Cade's mastery over Dark Transfer, by which he was able to heal his own injuries with ease and bring others from the brink of death, elevated his endurance capabilities to higher plateaus.

 

For example he was able to purge himself (and another) of the Rakghoul virus:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4235915-bounty+cade+dark+transfer+rakgoul+6+%281o2%29.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4235916-bounty+cade+dark+transfer+rakgoul+6+%282o2%29.jpg

 

His ability to defeat such a potent disease that even Sith Lords had succumbed to, he was also able to purge others of lethal toxins, and the Vongspawn virus. Altogether demonstrating more refined power and mastery when it comes to enduring and overcoming bodily injury and corruption, on a level Arcann has not reached.

 

Cade's abilities in mental endurance also more than stack up with Arcann's showings.

 

In particular overcoming the illusions of Darth Krayt, and resisting dark side corruption:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4929255-krayt0.png

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4929256-krayt1.png

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4929257-krayt2.png

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4929258-krayt3.png

 

The level of mental resilience and more importantly self mastery he demonstrates being highly impressive. It being worth noting that Cade was also able to overcome Muur's attempts to corrupt him with his influence, and altogether possess him as he was able to possess others when the Muur Talisman became attached:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4235933-bounty+cade+mental+resistance+muur+2.jpg

Altogether I'd say all three candidates here more than match up to Arcann's physical resilence, and we have sufficient proof to claim they'd be able to endure such levels of trauma.

 

I would say Cade gains a decisive edge over Arcann however thanks to the higher levels of self-mastery Dark Transfer afforded him, and his exceptional mental resilience.

 

3. Arcann possessed significant skill in the art of Force Concealment.

Arcann hid his presence from the Outlander despite being mere meters away:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4873570-5367502306-LQk5m.gif

 

And was later able to sneak up on the Outlander and attack him unawares:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4873561-1628709057-njhzo.gif

 

vs Cade Skywalker

 

Cade is the only individual who has feats to compare in this category and they are quite impressive, namely his ability to withdraw from the Force so his presence couldn't be sensed by the Sith:

 

“I withdrew from the Force so the Sith couldn’t find me. I went into deep meditation to save oxygen.”

 

--Taken from Star Wars: Legacy 6: Broken

 

Which I would say is quite impressive considering among the Sith included Darth Krayt, who himself has very impressive Sense abilities, and in fact was able to sense Cade's use of the Force from light years away. That said I wouldn't give Cade an edge, only parity, seeing as Arcann was standing in plain sight and still invisible.

In the overall sphere of Control I would say Cade and Malgus compare to him in almost all respects, and overall Cade gains a minor edge through superior healing/endurance capabilities. Kyp competes with Arcann in endurance, but I would argue that Arcann surpasses him overall by demonstrating a superior Force augmentative abilities.

 

Comparison of Alter

 

1. Kyp's ability to manipulate objects telekinetically.

vs. Cade Skywalker

 

Cade's most impressive telekinetic showing is lifting and hurling a massive chunk of space ship debris at Darth Talon. However I would argue that even accounting for a lack of inertia, hurling a fully sized and intact freighter at speed and with ease at the very least compares to this accomplishment.

 

And while this feat does not demonstrate the full extent of Cade's powers, neither does Kyp's showing. Instead with maximum effort Kyp was able to manipulate an incredibly dense black hole, which even accounting for circumstances, surpasses in weight anything Cade has manipulated.

2. Kyp's destructive power in the Force.

vs. Cade Skywalker

 

Cade's greatest destructive showing is incapacitating a Sith trooper, and though it was not killed, it did die from its injuries later, and Cade was noted to be fatigued. So it is likely at full strength he could have killed it instantly.

 

Cade was also vastly more powerful than Darth Havok, who incapacitated Antares Draco with a casual burst of lightning, and notably stronger than Darth Nihl, who was able to kill a fatigued Kol Skywalker with lightning. In that respect, Cade's upper limits should be regarded as considerable, and could potentially KO powerful Force users.

 

Nonetheless as a teenager Kyp is incinerating living tissue with the Force, with casual bursts of power, and managed to fell a Sith Leviathan with by conjuring a single bolt of lightning. Did he appopriate the power of the weather in the latter showing? Yes. But not only did he do so well before his prime, but against an opponent far more durable than a Sith trooper, so durable that it was seemingly able to endure being dropped in lava.

 

I would say this is a more impressive display of raw power. However we must acknowledge that Force lightning and Alter Enviroment are not directly comparable, so its not conclusive.

3. Kyp's ability to break through Force barriers.

vs. Cade Skywalker

 

Cade in his prime was able to telekinetically dominate Darth Talon, in comparison, Kyp was able to telekinetically dominate Corran Horn. Hurling him across a hangar with a flick of his wrist.

 

It can be concluded that Cade's showing is more impressive here, as unlike Talon, who was left beaten and then unconcious by Cade's attack, Corran suffered no serious injury, and it is also likely that none of them had their defenses raised, as Kyp was pinned down with the Force by a lesser Jedi (Kenth Hamner) straight after,

 

In this respect Cade has the superior showing.

4. Kyp's ability to penetrate and manipulate the minds of others.

vs. Cade Skywalker

 

Kyp has demonstrated notable talent in this arena, capable of invading the mind of a non-Force sensitive and erasing memories to replace them with knew ones. However Cade far surpasses him in this regard, capable of overpowering Maladi's illusions with sheer strength, and proceeding to dominate her mind and erase her memories. Despite Maladi being a refined master of the art, and Cade having demonstrated no prior talent.

Conclusively I would say that Kyp has demonstrated largely superiority over Cade in terms of manipulating objects and potentially destructive power ability to Malgus in terms of destructive power, however Cade has demonstrated himself to be more mentally dominating.

 

Furthermore we must also account for the fact that Kyp's Alter Enviroment feat does not give him definitive superiority over Cade, and Cade has demonstrated, and that Cade has demonstrated abilities that Kyp has no feats that compare. For example his ability to shield himself from the explosion of Maladi's lab, and emerge unscathed.

 

In this respect it can be argued that Cade equals him in Alter, or at best Kyp has a minor edge over him.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Final Verdict: #13 Cade Skywalker.

 

For reference, a comparison of Cade's abilities with Kyp, Malgus (and Arcann) can be found here.

[Beniboybling]

OK, concerning the next set of candidates, along with Kyp and Malgus I think Wyyrlok could be a potential candidate.

 

To briefly list some of his most impressive powers and accolades:

 

- He was been described as having unparalleled knowledge of the rituals and lore of the Sith, even more so than Krayt.

 

- His Force lightning was powerful enough to completely shatter stone columns and destroy Krayt's Vong armour.

 

- With an iota of his power he conjured multiple illusions of himself to influence dark side cultists to kill each other and was capable of overwhelming and mentally dominating Darth Anneddu, himself a powerful illusionist.

 

- He was capable of using memory walk to seemingly leave Reborn Krayt momentarily crippled, and was able to easily deflect the Force lighting of Darth Anneddu with a single palm.

 

- Was able to conjure a Force barrier that repelled a telekinetic attack from Reborn Krayt.

 

EDIT: Though that said I'm not quite convinced he has sufficient showings to compete with them.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Beniboybling

[cs_zoltan]

Yeah either Wyyrlok or Zannah tbh.

[Beniboybling]

Still not seeing Zannah as coming before Bane or Traya tbh.

[cs_zoltan]

Still not seeing Zannah as coming before Bane or Traya tbh.

 

How would Bane be more powerful than Zannah when the whole point of the RoT was to produce more powerful sith with each generation and every Banite sith received a boost of power when they killed their master?

 

Also she killed Bane in a duel. You can say it was all hax, but still there it is. She even won the battle of wills at the end.

[cs_zoltan]

For a millennium, the Sith maintained the order in secrecy, passing down their evil heritage. As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation.

—Episode 1: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/12/122946/5065516-6932865122-rule%25.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_large/4/48954/5065982-heritage+of+the+sith%2C+insider+88.jpg

[Beniboybling]

How would Bane be more powerful than Zannah when the whole point of the RoT was to produce more powerful sith with each generation and every Banite sith received a boost of power when they killed their master?

 

Also she killed Bane in a duel. You can say it was all hax, but still there it is. She even won the battle of wills at the end.

Perhaps, the problem is thought that her feats are not as good as Bane's, so she can't simply ride his coat tails arguably above anyone other than Bane. In a straight up comparison she's not even as powerful as Dooku I feel.

 

It might be better to leave her for the honorable mentions, rather than speculate on how much more powerful than Bane she might be, and in what fields, as there is no guarantee she outclassed him in all fields, I am unsure.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Beniboybling

[cs_zoltan]

Perhaps, the problem is thought that her feats are not as good as Bane's, so she can't simply ride his coat tails arguably above anyone other than Bane. In a straight up comparison she's not even as powerful as Dooku I feel.

 

It might be better to leave her for the honorable mentions, rather than speculate on how much more powerful than Bane she might be, and in what fields, as there is no guarantee she outclassed him in all fields, I am unsure.

 

I guess that could work. But she can't go below Bane for sure

[JhonniPlays]

Can someone type the list of right now?

[cs_zoltan]

Can someone type the list of right now?

 

List, comparisons and pretty much everything else can be found in the second post.

 

For convenience:

#1 Luke Skywalker / #2 Darth Sidious / #3 Valkorion / #4 Yoda / #5 Darth Plagueis / #6 Darth Caedus

 

#7 Mother Talzin / #8 Darth Krayt / #9 Revan / #10 Darth Vader / #11 Starkiller / #12 Exar Kun

 

#13 Cade Skywalker

 

PS: Beni, stop making irrelevant KMC threads and get on with this

Edited March 8, 2016 by cs_zoltan

[Beniboybling]

PS: Beni, stop making irrelevant KMC threads and get on with this

 

Well tbh I was waiting to see if there were any more thoughts on additional candidates.

[Selenial]

Where the Kaggath at tho?

[cs_zoltan]

Where the Kaggath at tho?

 

You are back?!

 

https://media4.giphy.com/media/MrOy8tFZ1CZt6/giphy.gif

[Selenial]

You are back?!

 

https://media4.giphy.com/media/MrOy8tFZ1CZt6/giphy.gif

 

[Beniboybling]

Where the Kaggath at tho?

Oh look, Sel's back!

 

There go my emergency powers...

[cs_zoltan]

Oh look, Sel's back!

 

There go my emergency powers...

 

Like only a week after I told you she probably won't be back.

 

Not awkward.