The REAL Most Powerful Force Users - Rebooted

[Beniboybling]

Kyp does have more impressive alter showings but let's not forget Cade still has excellent TK showings, the ability to bring people back from death, his illusions, and superior control feats. This is why I said "Cade overall."

Perhaps, but feel Kyp's destructive power makes a stronger case for superiority, whereas superior healing and illusions are often possessed by lesser Force users, and his overall edge in control has a lot to do with Kyp's lack of showings.

[Rhyltran]

Perhaps, but feel Kyp's destructive power makes a stronger case for superiority, whereas superior healing and illusions are often possessed by lesser Force users, and his overall edge in control has a lot to do with Kyp's lack of showings.

 

Remember, evidence of absence. If Kyp has a lack of showings then that's on kyp and a point in Cade's favor. While yes superior healing and illusions are often possessed by lesser force users this isn't some lesser force user. Not to mention what Cade has done with his healing outstrips nearly anyone in the mythos. It's also tough to gauge. While Kyp has the best example of telekinesis let's also not forget that Cade spends more time in his showings against other force users than hurling objects. Furthermore he was able to resist Krayt's attacks which is probably more impressive than what Kyp has done.

 

 

Finally.. Cade is more powerful than anyone in the One Sith (aside from Krayt) which would put him above Darth Wredd. So I'm invoking power scaling.

[Beniboybling]

Remember, evidence of absence. If Kyp has a lack of showings then that's on kyp and a point in Cade's favor.

Well exactly, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Kyp's lack of showings only demonstrates the writers gave him a lack of attention, though from what I can surmise from his few showings, I wouldn't say he's superior.

 

There remains an element of ambiguity though, I'm not keen on positing superiority based on little evidence.

While yes superior healing and illusions are often possessed by lesser force users this isn't some lesser force user.

I didn't mean it in that sense, I mean less than those more powerful than them. For example Darth Traya possesses superior healing to many of the characters already ranked, and being considered, but she is not more powerful.

Not to mention what Cade has done with his healing outstrips nearly anyone in the mythos.

Well showings wise, however there are many that I'd think would be logically capable of his accomplishments. But the precedent is set, superior healing ability doesn't necessarily make you more powerful, additional evidence is required.

 

I respect his abilities though, however I feel he'd have to show at least equal raw power to Kyp in other fields, particularly Alter, to be given an edge, that is how we approached things when discussing Krayt's DT.

It's also tough to gauge. While Kyp has the best example of telekinesis let's also not forget that Cade spends more time in his showings against other force users than hurling objects. Furthermore he was able to resist Krayt's attacks which is probably more impressive than what Kyp has done.

Kyp has quite a lot of consistent showings, which I don't feel Cade has matched.

 

As far as dominating Force users go, I think there it would be important to assess Corran Horn's power, from what I can gather, he seems to be more powerful than Darth Talon.

Finally.. Cade is more powerful than anyone in the One Sith (aside from Krayt) which would put him above Darth Wredd. So I'm invoking power scaling.

Logically, yes, though I don't think there is a statement, it beefs out his inventory, but not sure it will be enough. Edited February 11, 2016 by Beniboybling

[Rhyltran]

Well exactly, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Kyp's lack of showings only demonstrates the writers gave him a lack of attention, though from what I can surmise from his few showings, I wouldn't say he's superior.

 

There remains an element of ambiguity though, I'm not keen on positing superiority based on little evidence.I didn't mean it in that sense, I mean less than those more powerful than them. For example Darth Traya possesses superior healing to many of the characters already ranked, and being considered, but she is not more powerful.Well showings wise, however there are many that I'd think would be logically capable of his accomplishments. But the precedent is set, superior healing ability doesn't necessarily make you more powerful, additional evidence is required.

 

I respect his abilities though, however I feel he'd have to show at least equal raw power to Kyp in other fields, particularly Alter, to be given an edge, that is how we approached things when discussing Krayt's DT.

Kyp has quite a lot of consistent showings, which I don't feel Cade has matched.

 

As far as dominating Force users go, I think there it would be important to assess Corran Horn's power, from what I can gather, he seems to be more powerful than Darth Talon.Logically, yes, though I don't think there is a statement, it beefs out his inventory, but not sure it will be enough.

 

I wouldn't put Corran Horn's power level beyond Darth Talon. He's an excellent duelist don't get me wrong but even he admits that he can barely move a boulder. He's a tough one. His alter is weak and his defenses aren't great either but he's an excellent duelist, great with illusions, and has great telepathy. He has a knack of beating more powerful people thna himself (as long as they can't outright ragdoll him) but I don't think he comes close to Talon as a force user.

 

The problem is that most of the people Corran has defeated were featless. Even then he mostly used "Trickery" and his wits to come out on top. He's been injured by normal Vong soldiers. I don't think Corran in any way possible stacks up to Talon. I think you're severely underestimating talon or severely overestimating Corran. So if you put stock into Corran because of his illusions than you must do the same for Cade but illusions is about all Corran has (but don't get me wrong. He's amazing with his illusions.) but his TK? Forget about it.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Rhyltran

[cs_zoltan]

Glad to see I don't have to solo defend again. I've been doing that since Talzin.

[Beniboybling]

I wouldn't put Corran Horn's power level beyond Darth Talon. He's an excellent duelist don't get me wrong but even he admits that he can barely move a boulder. He's a tough one. His alter is weak and his defenses aren't great either but he's an excellent duelist, great with illusions, and has great telepathy. He has a knack of beating more powerful people thna himself (as long as they can't outright ragdoll him) but I don't think he comes close to Talon as a force user.

 

The problem is that most of the people Corran has defeated were featless. Even then he mostly used "Trickery" and his wits to come out on top. He's been injured by normal Vong soldiers. I don't think Corran in any way possible stacks up to Talon. I think you're severely underestimating talon or severely overestimating Corran. So if you put stock into Corran because of his illusions than you must do the same for Cade but illusions is about all Corran has (but don't get me wrong. He's amazing with his illusions.) but his TK? Forget about it.

I don't think his incapability with telekinesis when it was an innate inability, not a sign of weakness.

 

On the other hand conjuring illusions that could fool Luke Skywalker (and wasn't this well before his prime), and absorbing the power of explosions, and intense heat demonstrate considerably proficiency in the living Force.

 

I also believe he fought a marathon engagement with Vong over the course of several days, if so that's tremendous stamina feat. And demonstrates pretty strong mastery over the living Force as well.

 

I'm not confident Talon has comparable showings in TK and Force lightning that stack up to this.

 

That said I'm not well versed in Corran Horn as a character, and what's important here is his Force defenses, you say his defenses "aren't that great", may I ask on what basis, besides getting ragdolled by Kyp?

[Beniboybling]

OK a quick write up on Alter, well fairly detailed but not with links and stuff. Sorry for my lack of attention to this thread, been very busy with RL stuff and the Hunger Games. Hopefully we can get stuff down with everyone AWOL.

 

1. Kyp's ability to manipulate objects telekinetically.

vs. Cade Skywalker

 

Cade's most impressive telekinetic showing is lifting and hurling a massive chunk of space ship debris at Darth Talon. However I would argue that even accounting for a lack of inertia, hurling a fully sized and intact freighter at speed and with ease at the very least compares to this accomplishment.

 

And while this feat does not demonstrate the full extent of Cade's powers, neither does Kyp's showing. Instead with maximum effort Kyp was able to manipulate an incredibly dense black hole, which even accounting for circumstances, surpasses in weight anything Cade has manipulated.

 

vs. Darth Malgus

 

As far as manipulating objects go, Malgus' best showing is lifting and hurling a massive boulder, for the same reasons however I do not believe this compare's to Kyp's best showing. And is comparable to his freighter feat.

 

I feel that in order to prove themselves capable of the black hole feat, Cade & Malgus would have to match Kyp's other raw power showings, it is arguably however that Cade achieves this, while Malgus does not.

2. Kyp's destructive power in the Force.

vs. Cade Skywalker

 

Cade's greatest destructive showing is incapacitating a Sith trooper, and though it was not killed, it did die from its injuries later, and Cade was noted to be fatigued. So it is likely at full strength he could have killed it instantly.

 

Cade was also vastly more powerful than Darth Havok, who incapacitated Antares Draco with a casual burst of lightning, and notably stronger than Darth Nihl, who was able to kill a fatigued Kol Skywalker with lightning. In that respect, Cade's upper limits should be regarded as considerable, and could potentially KO powerful Force users.

 

Nonetheless as a teenager Kyp is incinerating living tissue with the Force, with casual bursts of power, and managed to fell a Sith Leviathan with by conjuring a single bolt of lightning. Did he appopriate the power of the weather in the latter showing? Yes. But not only did he do so well before his prime, but against an opponent far more durable than a Sith trooper, so durable that it was seemingly able to endure being dropped in lava.

 

I would say this is a more impressive display of raw power. However we must acknowledge that Force lightning and Alter Enviroment are not directly comparable, so its not conclusive.

 

vs. Darth Malgus

 

Malgus' greatest showings of destructive power involve overloading the fuel cells of a wing of passing fighters with a Force scream and buckling a transparisteel viewport, and his ability to wield the Force maelstrom, a precursor to the much more powerful Force storm, one of the most powerful Force abilities ever recorded.

 

Concerning the former I would raise that Kyp as able to obliterate an entire shuttle, which is much more significant than only damaging smaller fighters, even if we account for Malgus' growth in power. And I would claim that Kyp has at the very least demonstrated comparable ability to the Force maelstrom in his ability to call down powerful lighting strikes, although Malgus' power is evidently more refined and of personal strength.

3. Kyp's ability to break through Force barriers.

vs. Cade Skywalker

 

Cade in his prime was able to telekinetically dominate Darth Talon, in comparison, Kyp was able to telekinetically dominate Corran Horn. Hurling him across a hangar with a flick of his wrist.

 

It can be concluded that Cade's showing is more impressive here, as unlike Talon, who was left beaten and then unconcious by Cade's attack, Corran suffered no serious injury, and it is also likely that none of them had their defenses raised, as Kyp was pinned down with the Force by a lesser Jedi (Kenth Hamner) straight after,

 

In this respect Cade has the superior showing.

 

vs. Darth Malgus

 

Malgus was able to break through the defenses of Aryn Leneer with his Force lightning, several years before his prime, and at the peak of his powers overwhelmed the TOR champions with a telekinetic wave, and brought them to their knees with his Force lightning. All very impressive showings, and in terms of the strength of his opponents they are all likely more powerful than Corran Horn, so Malgus has an edge here.

 

However again considering Kyp wasn't going all out, it isn't definitive proof of his superiority.

4. Kyp's ability to penetrate and manipulate the minds of others.

vs. Cade Skywalker

 

Kyp has demonstrated notable talent in this arena, capable of invading the mind of a non-Force sensitive and erasing memories to replace them with knew ones. However Cade far surpasses him in this regard, capable of overpowering Maladi's illusions with sheer strength, and proceeding to dominate her mind and erase her memories. Despite Maladi being a refined master of the art, and Cade having demonstrated no prior talent.

Conclusively I would say that Kyp has demonstrated largely superior ability to Malgus in terms of destructive power, and the ability to manipulate objects, giving him the overall edge. And while Kyp has the same edges over Cade, Cade has an advantage over him in terms of Force illusions.

 

Furthermore we must also account for the fact that Kyp's Alter Enviroment feat does not give him definitive superiority over Cade, and Cade has demonstrated, and that Cade has demonstrated abilities that Kyp has no feats that compare. For example his ability to shield himself from the explosion of Maladi's lab, and emerge unscathed.

 

In this respect it can be argued that Cade equals him in Alter, or at best Kyp has a minor edge over him.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Beniboybling

[raandomname]

Im not familiar with the comic that Kyp's Leviathan feat is from, but from what I understand Kyp killed the Leviathan after it was dumped in lava. If this is in deed the case, I would assume that the creature would already have been heavily damaged after the lava and that Kyp mostly finished it of.

[Beniboybling]

Im not familiar with the comic that Kyp's Leviathan feat is from, but from what I understand Kyp killed the Leviathan after it was dumped in lava. If this is in deed the case, I would assume that the creature would already have been heavily damaged after the lava and that Kyp mostly finished it of.

Nah, according to the Wookiee there were two Leviathans, one was felled by Kyp's lightning alone, the other, after recovering from being dumped in lava - seemingly unscathed, was killed after being eletrocuted by a power generator feeding an entire mining colony, which gives you the idea of what kind of power it takes to kill one.

 

And just to get an idea of the scale of these things:

 

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/6/69/KypLeviathan.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090128195734

[raandomname]

Nah, according to the Wookiee there were two Leviathans, one was felled by Kyp's lightning alone, the other, after recovering from being dumped in lava - seemingly unscathed, was killed after being eletrocuted by a power generator feeding an entire mining colony, which gives you the idea of what kind of power it takes to kill one.

 

And just to get an idea of the scale of these things:

 

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/6/69/KypLeviathan.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090128195734

Nvm than

[PainOfDemise]

What is this? No Darth Bane on the list?

[Jarons]

What is this? No Darth Bane on the list?

Is this once a Month Now got dam.

[that_Spartan_IV]

What is this? No Darth Bane on the list?

 

I don't know man, I'm surprised too.

[Rhyltran]

I don't know man, I'm surprised too.

 

Bane's feats don't compare to those on the bottom of the list. So no he wouldn't be on it.

[Jarons]

Bane's feats don't compare to those on the bottom of the list. So no he wouldn't be on it.

IMO Bane is below Ti.

[Beniboybling]

Bane shouldn't be underestimated, I think it can be argued he's above Dooku. However he's not a contender at this point. Anyway any more thoughts on for #13 and specifically my analysis?

[cs_zoltan]

2. Kyp has demonstrated superior destructive power in the Force.

I disagree. The instance you brought up for Cade is when he was exhausted. It was even noted by the Sith Trooper: http://puu.sh/npFjc/981ea49dbc.jpg

 

As for how much he was exhausted? Cade is ******** on people who can pulverize rock and OHK Kol Skywalker. He's also much, much more powerful than Darth Havok who casually incapacitated Antares Draco: http://puu.sh/npFoA/52e4b470bd.jpg

3. Kyp has demonstrated comparable ability to break through Force barriers.

Hardly. First of all pushing someone is not really impressive. It's the effect that matters. Cade with 1 push left Talon crawling on the floor, with the second one he KO'd her indefinitely. And that was on a DS nexus, where she is definitelly superior to Corran. And that's beside the Sith whom Cade is ******** on showcased.

 

In contrast all Kyp did is push Corran, and he instantly recovered. Even more, in the very same moment Kenth Hamner (who the **** is he anyway ) showed even superior telekinetic domination over Kyp. This is the whole event, not just the selectively quoted from Kyp's RT:

 

"It doesn't matter," Corran said. "This mission isn't authorized."

 

Kyp looked up. "I authorized it."

 

He flicked his wrist, and Corran went sailing across the hangar back toward Kenth and the other Jedi. It was a particularly insulting dismissal, since Corran could not respond in kind, having never been able to master the skill of Force telekinesis.

 

The same was not true of Kenth Hamner. He extended his arm, and Kyp flew back against the hull of his StealthX and remained there, pinned.

 

"You were not appointed the leader of the Jedi order," Kenth said, leading Corran and the rest of the Jedi back toward Kyp. "Master Horn was. "

—Dark Nest 02 - The Unseen Queen

[Beniboybling]

I disagree. The instance you brought up for Cade is when he was exhausted. It was even noted by the Sith Trooper: http://puu.sh/npFjc/981ea49dbc.jpg

 

As for how much he was exhausted? Cade is ******** on people who can pulverize rock and OHK Kol Skywalker. He's also much, much more powerful than Darth Havok who casually incapacitated Antares Draco: http://puu.sh/npFoA/52e4b470bd.jpg

Fair point, however I'm not convinced this is equal or superior to OHKing a Leviathan.

 

Noting that Kol was almost certainly worn down from fighting off an army of Sith, and Draco isn't a particularly powerful Force user. Though granted Cade should be much more powerful than Havok.

Hardly. First of all pushing someone is not really impressive. It's the effect that matters. Cade with 1 push left Talon crawling on the floor, with the second one he KO'd her indefinitely. And that was on a DS nexus, where she is definitelly superior to Corran. And that's beside the Sith whom Cade is ******** on showcased.

 

In contrast all Kyp did is push Corran, and he instantly recovered. Even more, in the very same moment Kenth Hamner (who the **** is he anyway ) showed even superior telekinetic domination over Kyp. This is the whole event, not just the selectively quoted from Kyp's RT:

 

"It doesn't matter," Corran said. "This mission isn't authorized."

 

Kyp looked up. "I authorized it."

 

He flicked his wrist, and Corran went sailing across the hangar back toward Kenth and the other Jedi. It was a particularly insulting dismissal, since Corran could not respond in kind, having never been able to master the skill of Force telekinesis.

 

The same was not true of Kenth Hamner. He extended his arm, and Kyp flew back against the hull of his StealthX and remained there, pinned.

 

"You were not appointed the leader of the Jedi order," Kenth said, leading Corran and the rest of the Jedi back toward Kyp. "Master Horn was. "

—Dark Nest 02 - The Unseen Queen

Okay, wasn't aware of the contexts.

 

I think you have a point and Corran's powers in general are vague. So I'll concede on that front.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Beniboybling

[cs_zoltan]

Cade also has superior TP.

 

The best Kyp has is creating an image then deleting it from a non-force sensitive's mind:

 

Jaina felt the older Jedi's power reach into the man's mind. Kyp formed the image of a morning-misted sun, barely visible above the forest horizons of Gallinore-- about the time, Jaina recalled, that they had landed. With smooth, cool strokes, Kyp swept away the memory from that moment to this. He eased away, like a thief creeping from a plundered home.

—The Apprentice

 

In contrast Cade successfully used Illusions on Darth Maladi, and may even deleted her memories of the experiments on Wayland:

http://i.imgur.com/Y1PMsSI.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11124/111247337/5016125-3198642088-e84d6.jpg

 

He, and even Maladi, are also superior to Darth Havok, who with Force Illusions managed to break Antares Draco:

http://puu.sh/npGC3/daa9d648cc.jpg

http://puu.sh/npGDs/0458024335.jpg

[Beniboybling]

That is true. Leaning towards Cade at the moment.

 

There are also his Force defenses to account for e.g. tanking the explosion of Maladi's lab, and resisting the Force attacks of Reborn Krayt. Not that we have anything to compare it directly with, but I suppose to shores Cade up against Kyp's Alter Enviroment feat (which isn't directly comparable to Force lighting) and his destructive TK showings.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Beniboybling

[cs_zoltan]

That is true. Leaning towards Cade at the moment.

 

Yay. So what's the deal? Are we gona propose Cade for 13? Also is Arcann still a contender or is he HM only?

[Beniboybling]

Yay. So what's the deal? Are we gona propose Cade for 13? Also is Arcann still a contender or is he HM only?

Arcann I think should remain in the Honourable Mentions for now.

 

I think I could support Cade over Kyp if there are endorsements. I'm also seeing Malgus' only advantage over Kyp being Force lightning, so I could support Cade over him as well. Cade for #13 seems worth proposing.

[cs_zoltan]

Rylth seems to support Cade, I do too. Aurbs is MIA. So is that like 2 more endorsements needed to pass it?

[Beniboybling]

Rylth seems to support Cade, I do too. Aurbs is MIA. So is that like 2 more endorsements needed to pass it?

Aurbere and Selenial's continued absences presents some problems that may require permanent solutions.

 

However Padster, Jarons and Random have all thrown their support behind Cade, I assume their opinions stand. It definitely has enough endorsements therefore, its merely a question of redefining the Council consensus.

[cs_zoltan]

Aurbere and Selenial's continued absences presents some problems that may require permanent solutions.

 

Yeah, the slackers. What do you plan to do about it?

 

On a totally unrelated note: Since I brought up Havok twice and had some scans of him I threw together an RT for him under an hour: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/cs_zoltan/blog/darth-havok-respect-thread/126020/