The REAL Most Powerful Force Users - Rebooted

[Beniboybling]

Ragdolling the Outlander:

 

Cade's total telekinetic domination of Talon I think compares, to say the least. Cade's assaults on Talon left her totally not functional for combat. With one Push he shattered stone using Talon's head. This caused her to crawl on the floor to warn Krayt. Another push crushed her into a pillar removing her from combat indefinitely.

This is impressive considering that Talon could shrug off a shuttle thrown at her a year prior, just after completing her training.

 

On the other hand Arcann's telekinetic assaults left the Outlander very much combat ready...except for the last when he pulled the Outlander on his blade. But that was not the telekinetic energy's doing, but the ligthsaber.

 

Also the Outlander and Talon are not very far off as far as force using goes. the HoT is around low Windu - Kenobi tier. While Talon is a high Ventress tier with feats such as KO'ing Sazen with lightning, and Shado and early Cade with a Force Push.

Not sure I'm convinced by that. Namely because while Cade dominates her with Force pushes, he never actually breaks her barriers and ragdolls her as Arcann did.

 

And as far as the Outlander remaining combat ready, I think that only speaks of his/her endurance capabilities, I'm not convinced Talon is really in close at all. I agree with your placement of Talon, but I think you underestimate the berth between Ventress tier and Windu-tier, which is synonymous with Dooku-tier i.e. an individual for whom she was no match for in combat, and easily ragdolled into unconsciousness with the Force.

 

The Outlander being low Windu/Dooku tier and Talon high Ventress tier in that respect would only imply that the Outlander would be unable to dominate her as such, but his/her superiority would remain considerable.

 

To give a better impression, the Outlander is probably even more powerful than Darth Nihl, though in his potentially weakened state could be brought down to that level. And Nihl was able to hold his own against Cade in a lengthy engagement, and before Cade was properly trained, straight up Force choked him into unconsciousness with ease.

 

It seems unlikely that even in his prime, Cade is someone he would capably ragdoll, just as he wouldn't the Outlander.

Destroying HK-55:

 

Not sure what's so impressive about that. Mace with a casual Force Push (less destructive Alter power than Lightning) obliterated a dozen droids and droidekas. While individually neither compares to an HK model, I'm sure collectively they do.

Mace could also inflict heavy injury on General Grievous with TK attack, who I would say is easily above the likes of HK models.

 

So I don't think this feat is beyond anyone here. Or even the likes of a tier below.

I wouldn't say so, they are pretty cheap whereas HK-55 is very much an elite model.However more importantly its made out to be life threatening to the Outlander:

 

"HK-55 sacrificed himself to save your life during the confrontation with Arcann on Asylum. There seems to be no hope of rebuilding him."

 

Implication being that if the Outlander had been struck he would have died or been mortally wounded. I'm not seeing anything Cade has accomplished that rivals that in terms of sheer destructive power.

Withstanding Valkorion's assault:

 

A few things to note first: Valkorion was weakened, the attack was unconcentrated.

 

Valkorion being weakend is important, because the destruction caused by this assault is hardly beyond the likes of lower on the list.

 

I'm specifically thinking of Galen Marek. He has offensive feats that compares to killing everyone in the proximity of the Spar.

 

Such as TK'ing thousands of droids:

 

Soon the foyer was full of the twitching, smoking bodies of the Temple’s hapless guardians. He began to tire, not from exertion but from the tedium of knocking down droid after droid, to no apparent end. There might have been thousands of them.

 

Deactivating his lightsaber, he took a deep breath. With one mighty exhalation of power, he blasted all of them—those in pieces and those approaching with needle-tipped fingers and vibrosaws upraised—out of the foyer doors. Then he blasted the rubbish piles after them. He kept pushing until a dark cloud soared out over Raxus Prime’s hideous landscape—an artificial hurricane full of droid golems.

 

When the foyer was clear, the apprentice straightened. He was no longer pushing with the Force, but the floor beneath him shook nonetheless. A heavy booming sound came from deeper in the Temple, and was getting louder. He had certainly attracted someone’s attention now.

—The Force Unleashed

 

Or oneshotting an AT-AT with Lightning:

 

Automated weapons emplacements spotted him instantly. Red weapons fire stitched lines of explosions across the station’s patchwork hull as he ducked between the AT-AT’s massive legs. Scooping up components from the nearest construction conveyor belt, he threw a series of high-speed missiles at the turrets, knocking five out of commission. A stream of Sith lightning put the AT-AT itself out of action, and a good, solid shove tipped it over with a crash, providing cover for the Wookiees when the time came to cross.

—The Force Unleashed

 

These are loosely comparable to Valkorion feat, so I'm sure the Starkiller clone could replicate that.

 

Starkiller being firmly below Darth Vader, who is below Darth Krayt.

 

Cade was so close to Krayt in power that the later couldn't dominate him with the Force. I think that's just as impressive as Arcann's feat.

A fair point, but what your are not accounting for is the duration, Arcann was able to defend himself for almost a minute, and if not for the kinetic force of the attack throwing him off the edge, appeared to be capable of doing so indefinitely. So sure while Krayt was unable to keep Cade at bay with bursts of power, that does not prove he'd be able to withstand a sustained and concentrated attack. So while definitely impressive is not as impressive I feel.

[raandomname]

Ragdolling the Outlander:

 

Cade's total telekinetic domination of Talon I think compares, to say the least. Cade's assaults on Talon left her totally not functional for combat. With one Push he shattered stone using Talon's head. This caused her to crawl on the floor to warn Krayt. Another push crushed her into a pillar removing her from combat indefinitely.

This is impressive considering that Talon could shrug off a shuttle thrown at her a year prior, just after completing her training.

 

On the other hand Arcann's telekinetic assaults left the Outlander very much combat ready...except for the last when he pulled the Outlander on his blade. But that was not the telekinetic energy's doing, but the ligthsaber.

 

Also the Outlander and Talon are not very far off as far as force using goes. the HoT is around low Windu - Kenobi tier. While Talon is a high Ventress tier with feats such as KO'ing Sazen with lightning, and Shado and early Cade with a Force Push.

 

Destroying HK-55:

 

Not sure what's so impressive about that. Mace with a casual Force Push (less destructive Alter power than Lightning) obliterated a dozen droids and droidekas. While individually neither compares to an HK model, I'm sure collectively they do.

Mace could also inflict heavy injury on General Grievous with TK attack, who I would say is easily above the likes of HK models.

 

So I don't think this feat is beyond anyone here. Or even the likes of a tier below.

 

Withstanding Valkorion's assault:

 

A few things to note first: Valkorion was weakened, the attack was unconcentrated.

 

Valkorion being weakend is important, because the destruction caused by this assault is hardly beyond the likes of lower on the list.

 

I'm specifically thinking of Galen Marek. He has offensive feats that compares to killing everyone in the proximity of the Spar.

 

Such as TK'ing thousands of droids:

 

Soon the foyer was full of the twitching, smoking bodies of the Temple’s hapless guardians. He began to tire, not from exertion but from the tedium of knocking down droid after droid, to no apparent end. There might have been thousands of them.

 

Deactivating his lightsaber, he took a deep breath. With one mighty exhalation of power, he blasted all of them—those in pieces and those approaching with needle-tipped fingers and vibrosaws upraised—out of the foyer doors. Then he blasted the rubbish piles after them. He kept pushing until a dark cloud soared out over Raxus Prime’s hideous landscape—an artificial hurricane full of droid golems.

 

When the foyer was clear, the apprentice straightened. He was no longer pushing with the Force, but the floor beneath him shook nonetheless. A heavy booming sound came from deeper in the Temple, and was getting louder. He had certainly attracted someone’s attention now.

—The Force Unleashed

 

Or oneshotting an AT-AT with Lightning:

 

Automated weapons emplacements spotted him instantly. Red weapons fire stitched lines of explosions across the station’s patchwork hull as he ducked between the AT-AT’s massive legs. Scooping up components from the nearest construction conveyor belt, he threw a series of high-speed missiles at the turrets, knocking five out of commission. A stream of Sith lightning put the AT-AT itself out of action, and a good, solid shove tipped it over with a crash, providing cover for the Wookiees when the time came to cross.

—The Force Unleashed

 

These are loosely comparable to Valkorion feat, so I'm sure the Starkiller clone could replicate that.

 

Starkiller being firmly below Darth Vader, who is below Darth Krayt.

 

Cade was so close to Krayt in power that the later couldn't dominate him with the Force. I think that's just as impressive as Arcann's feat.

 

Overall:

 

Cade I think can replicate all of Arcann's high showings, and he still has some of his own that Arcann has no answer for. Such as Force Illusions, Dark Transfer, Beast Control, and probably capable of erasing memories.

My thoughts exactly.

[tunewalker]

Powerscaling can be used to an extent yes, but overall superiority doesn't necessarily correlate to superiority in all fields, with different Force users having different strengths and weaknesses. Altogether though I think its only important if it actually proves something, I don't see being superior to the above putting Kyp above Arcann for example.

 

This list isnt about fields, its not about strengths and weaknesses. Its about overall power, thus overall power is what should be judged. If you read the full suggestion you know that I didnt suggest using "outliers" of an ability that some one was above to assume that they would above those outliers, but instead assume they are above the ones that they are in fact likely above.

[tunewalker]

Honestly I think we are very much giving to much credit to the Hero of Tython here. He beat a weakened Voice of the emperor, and while he did so on a "Dark Side nexus" we cant judge the nexus by what it did to Yoda 3,000 years later, since by that point it had time to fester. I dont remember seeing anything that suggested that the HoT or his allies were weakened on the nexus.

[Beniboybling]

This list isnt about fields, its not about strengths and weaknesses. Its about overall power, thus overall power is what should be judged. If you read the full suggestion you know that I didnt suggest using "outliers" of an ability that some one was above to assume that they would above those outliers, but instead assume they are above the ones that they are in fact likely above.

Yeah that's not by point, my point is that some who overall is more powerful than X, will not necessarily have superior ability in all fields. i.e. Malgus is more powerful than Traya, and yet we can't use that as a basis for ascribing Malgus Traya's precognitive or healing abilities, because she's just better in those fields.

[Beniboybling]

Honestly I think we are very much giving to much credit to the Hero of Tython here. He beat a weakened Voice of the emperor, and while he did so on a "Dark Side nexus" we cant judge the nexus by what it did to Yoda 3,000 years later, since by that point it had time to fester. I dont remember seeing anything that suggested that the HoT or his allies were weakened on the nexus.

There is no info on Yoda being weakened on Kaas as I recall, regardless your wrong, worlds like Korriban are noted to get weaker, not stronger over time. And there are multiple sources dated to TOR, that state it to be a potent nexus.

 

And honestly I don't think the HoT gets enough credit, he is among the "galaxies most powerful champions" and the finest Jedi the Order had, simply relative to his contemporaries he should be very powerful.

 

Though as far as the Outlander is concerned, Nox, the Wrath and the Barsenthor are all relevant.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

Yeah that's not by point, my point is that some who overall is more powerful than X, will not necessarily have superior ability in all fields. i.e. Malgus is more powerful than Traya, and yet we can't use that as a basis for ascribing Malgus Traya's precognitive or healing abilities, because she's just better in those fields.

 

Yes, I know that point. I have made it a thousand times in vs threads when people try to use some list that WE the fans made up as some sort of proof for why some one wins in a force battle or saber battle or what have you, MY point is there ARE things we can safely assume about a character's abilities (for example Kyp with 0 training had enough senses to manually navigate the maw with the force, we can safely assume he got better, and safely assume ANYTHING that some one who ISNT greatly known for their Senses and is lesser to him was able to do he could probably do better) the primary problem I having right now with your analysis of KYP's abilities specifically is most of the feats you are using for him are his Pre-master level feats. They are his feats when he was either untrained, Minimally trained, or at best Knight level for him, not his top out Master level feats. Feats that HIS LESSERS have shown better in, and in area's that he IS better then them in, he was better then them in those areas as a padawan and there was no reason to think either of them really changed their pacing. That's my issue you acknowledge that some power scaling is required to a degree, I KNOW that some one being better overall doesnt mean better in every field, but you have FAILED to utilize the appropriate power scaling for all of your characters. This is NOT a fight, this is a "most powerful" list, the overall is the thing we care about we dont care about who is better at TK vs better at Illusions we care about who is overall more powerful thus scaling is much more useful.

[tunewalker]

There is no info on Yoda being weakened on Kaas as I recall, regardless your wrong, worlds like Korriban are noted to get weaker, not stronger over time. And there are multiple sources dated to TOR, that state it to be a potent nexus.

 

And honestly I don't think the HoT gets enough credit, he is among the "galaxies most powerful champions" and the finest Jedi the Order had, simply relative to his contemporaries he should be very powerful.

 

Though as far as the Outlander is concerned, Nox, the Wrath and the Barsenthor are all relevant.

 

HoT is more powerful then those 3 in my opinion, so they arent relevant, however I think "potent nexus" and "affecting the HoT" are 2 different things, we have nothing backing up this idea that he was weakened by it remember he spent years under the influence of the dark side, he has his ghost master, there are all kinds of things that could prevent the nexus from affecting him. For example we dont see Luke affected by Palpatine in his battle with Vader even though Palpatine created Nexus's where ever he went, and his death left a Nexus above Endor, yet Luke still fought fine. A Potent Nexus does not mean some one was weakened by it, unless it specifically states that they are, I have considered that a fallacy for some time as nexus's behave differently to different people. Just like some people deal with Motion sickness differently, some just dont GET Motion sickness.

[Beniboybling]

Uh-huh, and I also said its probably not worth it unless they have showings that would put Kyp above Arcann, if you believe that's not the case feel free to make an argument, with evidence and such.

[tunewalker]

Uh-huh, and I also said its probably not worth it unless they have showings that would put Kyp above Arcann, if you believe that's not the case feel free to make an argument, with evidence and such.

 

Ok, well we have Leia with enough force speed to go up 3 flights of stairs in seconds.

 

 

Jaden, Avinoam, we need backup! Everyone else, get that crate fired up and out of here. We've got peepers across the way."

 

By the time he had finished, Leia was bounding up the stairs toward the pedbridge three levels above.

 

Source: Fate of the Jedi: Abyss

 

 

Which both Jaina and Kyp are faster then (see Kyp fighting evenly with Jaina, and Jaina as well as Kyp being known as more powerful and more capable duelists, which at that time meant they needed speed).

 

We have Mara who is older and physically weaker then Kyp in his prime as well as weaker in the force Litterally kicking down steel doors as she runs after some one.

 

 

 

He remained as steadfast in his desire to escape as she did in her desire to hunt him down. He began to scamper through a warren of rooms in a building where residual power allowed him to seal doorways behind him. But Mara merely kicked through them, and when she couldn't, she found alternate routes, never surrendering her momentum. Breathing hard and stumbling more often, Nom Anor was beginning to tire. Mara's acute hearing told her that much-and more. As she was kicking down a final door, she heard a hand blaster's safety click off, and entered the room to discover Nom Anor hiding behind the putrid remains of a Twi'lek, still dressed in security guard garb.

 

Source: The New Jedi Order: The Unifying Force

 

[cs_zoltan]

Is the Sith Temple a Dark Side nexus?

 

As you all well know the Jedi Temple on Coruscant used to be a Force nexus. This nexus then was accessed by Lord Nyax, and ultimately corrupted by his death and turned into a dark side nexus. This same nexus was still corrupted 13 years later in 27 ABY when Vergere took Jacen there:

 

"You see..." she whispered, "... but you do not see. Jacen... why would the Jedi Council... build its Temple upon... a nexus of the dark side?"

 

"Vergere, I..." He shook his head helplessly. "I have to go. I have to go before--before I..." hurt you again, he finished silently. He couldn't say it out loud. Not here. "I don't have time for guessing games."

 

"No guessing..." she said. "The answer is... simple. They wouldn't."

 

He went very, very still.

 

"What do you mean? I can feel the dark side here. I touched the dark side, and it, and it, it touched me..."

—New Jedi Order: Traitor

 

Now fast forward 110 years and the Jedi Temple had been replaced by the Sith Temple. Which was Krayt's personal Seat of Power. The Temple was filled hundreds of other Sith as well. Maladi was doing her dark side experiments there, and it was full of dark side artifacts such as this: http://i.imgur.com/U5Advcw.jpg

[cs_zoltan]

Not sure I'm convinced by that. Namely because while Cade dominates her with Force pushes, he never actually breaks her barriers and ragdolls her as Arcann did.

 

So? It hardly means he is incapable of it considering the damage he caused with only two pushes. For instance Dooku pushed Kenobi on the invisible hand, yet he instantly recovered without any injury. Later Dooku could Choke Kenobi.

 

And as far as the Outlander remaining combat ready, I think that only speaks of his/her endurance capabilities, I'm not convinced Talon is really in close at all. I agree with your placement of Talon, but I think you underestimate the berth between Ventress tier and Windu-tier, which is synonymous with Dooku-tier i.e. an individual for whom she was no match for in combat, and easily ragdolled into unconsciousness with the Force.

 

The Outlander being low Windu/Dooku tier and Talon high Ventress tier in that respect would only imply that the Outlander would be unable to dominate her as such, but his/her superiority would remain considerable.

 

What endurance feat the HoT has? Because shrugging off shuttles thrown at something is pretty insane, I doubt the HoT has anything that compares.

 

And I think you are selling Ventress short. I don't know about her Legends showing, but in TCW she is very much a rival for Kenobi, who is not far off from Dooku.

I don't see how the HoT would be so far above Talon, or above Nihl at all.

 

To give a better impression, the Outlander is probably even more powerful than Darth Nihl, though in his potentially weakened state could be brought down to that level. And Nihl was able to hold his own against Cade in a lengthy engagement, and before Cade was properly trained, straight up Force choked him into unconsciousness with ease.

 

It seems unlikely that even in his prime, Cade is someone he would capably ragdoll, just as he wouldn't the Outlander.

 

I doubt the Outlander is more powerful than Nihl. He has no feats for such claim and his hype is only slighty better than Nihl's.

 

And as for prime Cade vs Nihl? I disagree. Nihl was easily subdued by a barely alive Krayt, yet he couldn't replicate the same againt Cade at full power.

 

I wouldn't say so, they are pretty cheap whereas HK-55 is very much an elite model.However more importantly its made out to be life threatening to the Outlander:

 

"HK-55 sacrificed himself to save your life during the confrontation with Arcann on Asylum. There seems to be no hope of rebuilding him."

 

Implication being that if the Outlander had been struck he would have died or been mortally wounded. I'm not seeing anything Cade has accomplished that rivals that in terms of sheer destructive power.

 

Yeah droideka's are cheap, but I doubt a single HK unit would be 12 times more durable. And that's beside Arcann using a charged up Force Lightning, while Windu used a casual Push, the least destructive Alter power.

Also there's Mace injuring Grievous twice, which you ignored, and TCW Kenobi easily crushing two elite Commando droids. Altogether the HK angle is pretty bad.

 

As for HK saving the Outlander's life. That's true, but that doesn't mean Arcann could've one shotted him. His attack could've just inure or incapacitate, either case leading to his death. If Arcann could've just oneshotted the Outlander why would he even engage him in a duel several times? It was also done after several fights from the Outlander's side, coupled with the hybernation sickness and I'm pretty sure he wasn't at full strength.

 

A fair point, but what your are not accounting for is the duration, Arcann was able to defend himself for almost a minute, and if not for the kinetic force of the attack throwing him off the edge, appeared to be capable of doing so indefinitely. So sure while Krayt was unable to keep Cade at bay with bursts of power, that does not prove he'd be able to withstand a sustained and concentrated attack. So while definitely impressive is not as impressive I feel.

 

Nah, Arcann was pretty strained, so he couldn't have held up indefintely, while Cade shrugged off Krayt's attacks without any apparent effort, which should also be more powerful than weakened Vitiate's attack.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I did not just see the words Droideka and cheap in the same sentence...

[cs_zoltan]

I did not just see the words Droideka and cheap in the same sentence...

 

As a master of fodders what do you think is more durable 12 battle droids + droidekas or 1 HK?

[Wolfninjajedi]

As a master of fodders what do you think is more durable 12 battle droids + droidekas or 1 HK?

 

This matters why? Why exactly are we bringing up the durability of freaking droids of all things against Force Users?

[cs_zoltan]

This matters why? Why exactly are we bringing up the durability of freaking droids of all things against Force Users?

 

Ask Beni

[Beniboybling]

So? It hardly means he is incapable of it considering the damage he caused with only two pushes. For instance Dooku pushed Kenobi on the invisible hand, yet he instantly recovered without any injury. Later Dooku could Choke Kenobi.

Fair enough.

 

However beating someone about with TK is still inferior to actually breaking through their barriers, sure it indicates Cade could, but let's not assume this is somehow a superior showing to pulling someone on to your lightsaber.

What endurance feat the HoT has? Because shrugging off shuttles thrown at something is pretty insane, I doubt the HoT has anything that compares.

 

And I think you are selling Ventress short. I don't know about her Legends showing, but in TCW she is very much a rival for Kenobi, who is not far off from Dooku.

Being more powerful than Talon would suggest that he has superior endurance, especially considering his martial focus. On the other hand? By being stomped by Cade she pretty much demonstrates she be no match for a weakened Vitiate, on a potent dark side nexus. More likely that he would telepathically dominate her in an instant.

 

Heck, I don't believe Talon would even stand a chance against Thanaton.

 

Really what feats does Talon have that suggests she compares with any of the protags?

 

Not sure what Ventress being a rival of Kenobi is supposed to prove, considering he's not anywhere near Dooku either, hence how he was able to telekinetically dominate him. But this isn't about Ventress.

I don't see how the HoT would be so far above Talon, or above Nihl at all

Well frankly that's not even what you need to prove, you need to prove Talon at the very least in the same tier as the Outlander if you're to prove Cade could break through his barriers.

I doubt the Outlander is more powerful than Nihl. He has no feats for such claim and his hype is only slighty better than Nihl's.

 

And as for prime Cade vs Nihl? I disagree. Nihl was easily subdued by a barely alive Krayt, yet he couldn't replicate the same againt Cade at full power.

I would say that are at least comparable, and would lean towards the Outlander. And Cade isn't Krayt level, so that hardly proves that he could do the same. Just the given that Cade is stronger than Nihl by a fair margin.

 

EDIT: In fact I wouldn't put certain protags like Nox notably above him, Nihl is more Thanaton level if that.

Yeah droideka's are cheap, but I doubt a single HK unit would be 12 times more durable.

 

And that's beside Arcann using a charged up Force Lightning, while Windu used a casual Push, the least destructive Alter power.

Also there's Mace injuring Grievous twice, which you ignored, and TCW Kenobi easily crushing two elite Commando droids. Altogether the HK angle is pretty bad.

 

As for HK saving the Outlander's life. That's true, but that doesn't mean Arcann could've one shotted him. His attack could've just inure or incapacitate, either case leading to his death. If Arcann could've just oneshotted the Outlander why would he even engage him in a duel several times? It was also done after several fights from the Outlander's side, coupled with the hybernation sickness and I'm pretty sure he wasn't at full strength.

Well I'd rather avoid making assumptions so I won't press the point, concerning the Outlander, why didn't Arcann just pull him on to his lightsaber? Why didn't he just disarm him (again?).

 

Its obvious that Arcann possessed the ability to oneshot the Outlander, so I wouldn't say the fact he didn't until he got frustrated proves much, regardless being able to seriously injure to the point at which he was not longer capable of fighting or escaping, is still a very impressive feat Cade hasn't matched, even if the Outlander wasn't at full strength.

Nah, Arcann was pretty strained, so he couldn't have held up indefintely, while Cade shrugged off Krayt's attacks without any apparent effort, which should also be more powerful than weakened Vitiate's attack.

Of course he was strained, but there is no evidence that suggests he was about to conk out.

 

The fact remains however that he defended himself for almost a minute, whereas Cade was subject to Krayt's lightning for a few seconds at best, and may have just dodged it.

 

As for a single burst of Krayt's lightning being stronger than a massive Force storm from Valkorion. I would think not, even if we cap this feat at Starkiller's top tier (though frankly as a sustained attack rather than a single exertion, its well beyond that) it still surpasses this fairy pedestrian exertion from Krayt.

 

And even though he wasn't absorbing a lot, he was undoubtedly at the center of the storm.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Beniboybling

[cs_zoltan]

Fair enough.

 

However beating someone about with TK is still inferior to actually breaking through their barriers, sure it indicates Cade could, but lets not assume this is somehow a superior showing to pulling someone on to your lightsaber.

 

Eh? Yes it is. I think you severely overrate ragdolling. The powergap doesn't have to be big to ragdoll someone if you exploit a lapse in defense or catch them off guard. We see the same happen to Kenobi vs Dooku:

 

As the Count started up, Obi-Wan disengaged and ran to the second set of stairs to attack him from behind. Climbing the stairs, it cut down two of the super battle droids. He can’t fight in two directions at once, Obi-Wan thought as he came up behind the Count. If we can —

 

Count Dooku half-turned and raised a hand. A rush of dark power lifted Obi-Wan off his feet and choked the air from his lungs. He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden. He saw Dooku twist, kicking out at Anakin with all his weight behind it. Anakin fell backward, and Dooku hurled Obi-Wan over the edge of the balcony.

—Revenge of the Sith junior novel

 

By feats Kenobi is not far off from Dooku, yet there it is. On the other hand TCW Maul could legit ragdoll TCW Kenobi when he continously held a Choke on him for several seconds, and Kenobi being unable to counter it.

 

Arcann pulling the Outlander on his saber is hardly the later, it is the former.

 

Being more powerful than Talon would suggest that he has superior endurance, especially considering his martial focus. On the other hand? By being stomped by Cade she pretty much demonstrates she be no match for a weakened Vitiate, on a potent dark side nexus. More likely that he would telepathically dominate her in an instant.

 

Heck, I don't believe Talon would even stand a chance against Thanaton.

 

Really what feats does Talon have that suggests she compares with any of the protags?

 

Feats? You must be joking. The protags don't even have feats, they are all hype. And in that respect Talon certainly compares by being Krayt's hand.

 

Anyhow I listed many feats.

 

Well frankly that's not even what you need to prove, you need to prove that Talon at the very least in the same tier as the Outlander if your to prove he Cade could break through his barriers.

 

She is. KOing Shado and Cade with TK, KOing Sazen with lightning (only Marasiah's intervention saved his life). Shrugging of ships smashed in her face. Surviving impalement. Fodderising One Sith fighters. One shotting Imperial Knight Elke Vetter with Force Wound (considering she was the portector of the Heir to the Throne she must've been one of the better Knights). Using Beast Control on a pack of beasts while engaging in combat (TCW Kenobi was visibly strained to do the same).

 

Not sure if you overrate the protags, or underrate the Legacy era, but Talon is very much in their tier.

 

Well I'd rather avoid making assumptions so I won't press the point, concerning the Outlander, why didn't Arcann just pull him on to his lightsaber? Why didn't he just disarm him (again?).

 

Its obvious that Arcann possessed the ability to oneshot the Outlander, so I wouldn't say the fact he didn't until he got frustrated, regardless being able to seriously injure him to the point at which he was not longer capable of fighting or escaping, is still a very impressive feat Cade hasn't really matched, even if the Outlander wasn't at full strength.

 

That's quite the claim based on the sole implication that HK saved the Outlander's life. If he were able to oneshott the Outlander then he would've, just like Cade dispatched Talon on Coruscant after locking blades with her twice.

 

Actually the fact that the Outlander was largely unaffected by Arcann's telekinetic assaults suggests the opposite.

 

Arcann pushes the Outlander into a wall, the Outlander keeps on fighting: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11114/111140132/4873049-1766022748-zhOaT.gif

Cade pushes Talon into a wall, GG no re: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11114/111140132/4236086-jedi+cade+tk+darth+talon.jpg

 

Of course he was strained, but there is no evidence that suggests he was about to conk out.

 

The fact remains however that he defended himself for almost a minute, whereas Cade was subject to Krayt's lightning for a few seconds at best, and may have just dodged it.

 

As for a single burst of Krayt's lightning being stronger than a massive Force storm from Valkorion. I would think not, even if we cap this feat at Starkiller's top tier (though frankly as a sustained attack rather than a single exertion, its well beyond that) it still surpasses this fairy pedestrian exertion from Krayt.

 

And even though he wasn't absorbing a lot, he was undoubtedly at the center of the storm.

 

Yes Krayt wasn't going balls out, but neither was Cade. He shrugged it off with the same casualness as Krayt's offense. And in the end, unlike Arcann, he won the contest.

 

 

Also: Dark Side nexus. I rest my nuts.

[Beniboybling]

Eh? Yes it is. I think you severely overrate ragdolling. The powergap doesn't have to be big to ragdoll someone if you exploit a lapse in defense or catch them off guard. We see the same happen to Kenobi vs Dooku:

 

As the Count started up, Obi-Wan disengaged and ran to the second set of stairs to attack him from behind. Climbing the stairs, it cut down two of the super battle droids. He can’t fight in two directions at once, Obi-Wan thought as he came up behind the Count. If we can —

 

Count Dooku half-turned and raised a hand. A rush of dark power lifted Obi-Wan off his feet and choked the air from his lungs. He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden. He saw Dooku twist, kicking out at Anakin with all his weight behind it. Anakin fell backward, and Dooku hurled Obi-Wan over the edge of the balcony.

—Revenge of the Sith junior novel

 

By feats Kenobi is not far off from Dooku, yet there it is. On the other hand TCW Maul could legit ragdoll TCW Kenobi when he continously held a Choke on him for several seconds, and Kenobi being unable to counter it.

 

Arcann pulling the Outlander on his saber is hardly the later, it is the former.

Huh? Considering Maul is less powerful than Dooku surely his ability to "legit ragdoll" Kenobi proves Dooku could do the same, and that the disparity between their powers is far more considerable that you're willing to admit.

 

Pulling the Outlander onto his lightsaber being even more impressive. If Maul or Dooku were capable of doing so to Kenobi, they would have done so, heck, we see Dooku do as much to Tiplee, while engaging Kenobi:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111137054/3971132-fdfd.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111137054/3971135-sdsads.jpg

 

He even goes as far as to call her "little Jedi", clearly a show of disparity between ability even greater than that between Dooku and Kenobi, which is already significant enough. Which makes sense, considering in order to pull someone onto your lightsaber, they'd have to be completely incapable of breaking your grip before you impaled them. Indeed even if caught of guard, it stands to reason in such a critical moment they would recover and react.

 

Granted the Outlander might have been a bit worse for wear at this point, but they were still able to fight.

Feats? You must be joking. The protags don't even have feats, they are all hype. And in that respect Talon certainly compares by being Krayt's hand.

 

Anyhow I listed many feats.

Seriously?

 

People really need to stop with the generalised lowballing and engage with these characters, they have at ton of feats:

 

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/the-emperor-s-wrath-respect-thread/103818/

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/aurbere/blog/darth-nox-respect-thread/104619/

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/hero-of-tython-respect-thread/98458/

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/barsenthor-respect-thread/98469/

 

Aurbere's respect thread won't even load properly on my PC because its so chocked full of them, lol.

 

I'll do you a favour however and cite their most impressive showings.

Darth Nox has wiped out several Force sensitive Voss mystics with his lightning:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4540839-2299890364-m2Vg4.gif

 

Blew away and killed a Gormak warrior with a finger pistol:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4540870-6282231134-mG21A.gif

 

Killed a Jedi Knight with a single dark side blast:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4540913-2102424676-vrFK7.gif

 

Insta-drained the life force of half a dozen Geonosians:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4540484-4792852868-VaIus.gif

 

Sent Darth Kallous flying over several dozen meters with TK:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4540452-5697344975-yXbaq.gif

 

Bats away Force lightning from the "supremely powerful" Darth Thanaton and shrugs of his Force maelstrom:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4540516-6251173929-mG21B.gif

 

And proceeds to telekinetically dominate him:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4540460-7965052545-KRWwB.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4540461-8515922073-v1V0k.gif

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111222381/4540462-1752397739-vOWML.gif

 

The Emperor's Wrath as an acolyte defeated the the beast of Marka Ragnos, an enormous terantatek that no Sith had ever survived an encounter with despite being centuries old. Its death releasing a tremor in the Force.

 

"Left to guard the tomb serving as the resting place for its master, Marka Ragnos, the beast has dwelled in darkness for centuries. Legend tells that Ragnos beat his pet nightly, warping it with the Force until it was a creature of pure hate and anguish. Starved for unthinkable periods of time and then fed only blood, it is said to be filled with an unquenchable thirst for more. Since the death of its master and its seclusion in the tomb, no one has seen the beast and lived to tell the tale. But the strongest Sith can feel its unnerving presence."

 

―The Beast of Marka Ragnos Codex Entry

 

As an apprentice, the Emperor's Wrath cut a bloody swathe through a heavily defended installation manned by a thousand of the Republic's best, and a legendary elite squad of soliders:

 

"An incursion into the Arms Factory will be a monumental feat. I'm excited by the prospect of you laying waste to that place. The Republic command center is deep inside the Arms Factory, the most heavily protected installation on the planet. In order to reach Commander Rylon, you will have to make your way past all of the factory's defenses - which are considerable. Stationed inside are an estimated one thousand of the Republic's best trained soldiers. Specifically, Rylon's elite squadron is responsible for some of the most precise, improbable resistance victories on Balmorra. They're legendary. It will be a bright day on Balmorra when they are eliminated."

 

―Malavai Quinn

 

Defeated Master Wyellett who was considered a human superweapon and in seclusion grew even stronger, defeated Nomen Karr, one of the Order's most powerful Jedi, Darth Ekkage, one of the greatest assassins to ever live, and defeated the Emperor's Voice while possessed by an entity that corrupted an entire planet, and finally Darth Baras, one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the galaxy. And most of them before his prime.

 

He wiped out a Jedi and a squad of soldiers before they could react:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4498171-5917304537-vn2Xl.gif

 

Force gripped and broke the necks of two people in an instant:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4491231-9760971045-KrQ8Q.gif

 

Incapacitated a Sith Warrior with a casual exertion of TK:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4491225-3686119196-vJLEj.gif

 

And survived a massive explosion intended to kill, that subsequently buried him under tonnes of rubble:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4491238-6345586466-yAgPj.gif

 

The Hero of Tython has speed blitzed Sith Warriors, some capable of defeating Jedi Council members:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3907262-7959745914-nU1CB.gif

 

Successfully performed a mind trick on one of the Sith chosen to serve on the Emperor's secret battle station, where most Jedi struggled to TP the strong willed, even with combined strength:

 

Broke free from the Sith Emperor's influence and remained too powerful for him to overcome even as Valkorion:

 

"You won't control me again. I'm stronger than I was back then."

 

"Yes. I feel it."

 

After fighting through scores of soldiers, Sith and Imperial Guardsmen he confronted and defeated a weakened Emperor Vitiate, who was nonetheless too powerful for any of his companions to withstand the presence of.

 

Finally the Barsenthor has, well before his prime, lifted and hurled a bus sized chunk of metal debris:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3909280-1478979360-M6VaQ.gif

 

Blown apart a mass two-storey blast door with a single push:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4500220-0378116447-mGRd9.gif

 

And smashed to pieces a massive blast door in an ancient Rakatan prison with a series of telekinetic blasts:

 

Before their prime and while weakened defeated Lord Vivicar who possessed by a Sith spirit could dominate hundreds of Republic troops, and wielded the siphoned power of hundreds of Jedi Master's he'd corrupted.

 

Shielded themselves against lightsaber attacks from the powerful First Son, before blowing him away:

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/barsenthor-respect-thread/98469/

I'm making this comprehensive because the continued dismissal of the protags as featless wonders is getting tiresome. They are extremely powerful, and I'm failing to see any feats Talon possesses that puts her close to any of them.

She is. KOing Shado and Cade with TK, KOing Sazen with lightning (only Marasiah's intervention saved his life). Shrugging of ships smashed in her face. Surviving impalement. Fodderising One Sith fighters. One shotting Imperial Knight Elke Vetter with Force Wound (considering she was the portector of the Heir to the Throne she must've been one of the better Knights). Using Beast Control on a pack of beasts while engaging in combat (TCW Kenobi was visibly strained to do the same).

 

Not sure if you overrate the protags, or underrate the Legacy era, but Talon is very much in their tier.

Hardly compares to dominating Darth Thanaton, or blowing away the First Son, I would think.

 

And that comparison to Kenobi is hardly fair when the dark side is more able to dominate others.

She is. KOing Shado and Cade with TK, KOing Sazen with lightning (only Marasiah's intervention saved his life). Shrugging of ships smashed in her face. Surviving impalement. Fodderising One Sith fighters. One shotting Imperial Knight Elke Vetter with Force Wound (considering she was the portector of the Heir to the Throne she must've been one of the better Knights). Using Beast Control on a pack of beasts while engaging in combat (TCW Kenobi was visibly strained to do the same).

 

Not sure if you overrate the protags, or underrate the Legacy era, but Talon is very much in their tier.

 

That's quite the claim based on the sole implication that HK saved the Outlander's life. If he were able to oneshott the Outlander then he would've, just like Cade dispatched Talon on Coruscant after locking blades with her twice.

 

Actually the fact that the Outlander was largely unaffected by Arcann's telekinetic assaults suggests the opposite.

 

Arcann pushes the Outlander into a wall, the Outlander keeps on fighting: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11114/111140132/4873049-1766022748-zhOaT.gif

Cade pushes Talon into a wall, GG no re: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/11114/111140132/4236086-jedi+cade+tk+darth+talon.jpg

Fair enough, its likely he had to wear the Outlander down before one-shotting him. But the Outlander remains significantly more powerful, and the Outlander ends up just as pwned.

Yes Krayt wasn't going balls out, but neither was Cade. He shrugged it off with the same casualness as Krayt's offense. And in the end, unlike Arcann, he won the contest.

 

 

Also: Dark Side nexus. I rest my nuts.

Right, except we don't actually see how Cade even handles the attack, to suggest he shrugged it off without exertion is rather baseless. I won't even go into how the circumstances of the fight in which Cade won were completely different.

 

Regardless we continue to assume that at full power, Krayt would even be capable of a feat of such magnitude, even on a nexus. It could be argued he could replicate the scope, but not the intensity.

 

Vitiate was able to reduce Revan to his knees in seconds with a Force lightning storm of far lesser size, a storm that Revan wasn't even able to contain. And though Valkorion is not exerting his full power here, he's had over 300 years to grow more powerful, in the space of which he consumed an entire planet.

 

The last time he did that his powers were described as "vastly" increasing.

 

Simply put Valkorion >> Vitiate, and he's conjuring a storm on a far greater scale here, it therefore stands to reason it's at least as intense as what Revan was forced to handle, and greater than anything Krayt can output. And yet unlike Revan, Arcann is not only able defend himself, but do so indefinitely.

 

And considering Revan at this stage was deflecting Nyriss' lightning with ease, he's at least Cade tier if not higher.

[DarthBubba]

Most powerful force user can be summed up in three awesome words: Jar Jar Binks.

 

His plot armor is impenetrable. Sorry but I'll never believe he isn't the true dark lord of the Sith. I was one of the first one's to suggest so before the fan theory really took off. I was so hoping that when Mace Windu went into to arrest Palpatine that he would find Jar Jar in his chair instead.

 

Nobody would suspect a bumbling idiot. That my friends is the true shroud of the Dark Side.

Edited February 4, 2016 by DarthBubba

[Wolfninjajedi]

Hey....hey, Beni/Sel/Aurbere, check yo CV I tagged you in a new thread I made there. GO CHECK IT!

[Beniboybling]

Hey....hey, Beni/Sel/Aurbere, check yo CV I tagged you in a new thread I made there. GO CHECK IT!

I've seen it, very nice. Maybe when I've got some more time I'll give it a proper look over, could be a good contender for the Hunger Games, mmm.

 

Anyway I have a complete analysis of the current candidates I'm in the process of completing so I'll post that soon.

 

In the mean time please continue to share your thoughts everyone, the more voices the better.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Beniboybling

[PadsterPwns]

I think Grievous is going to be the MVP. He can take pretty much anyone in H2H and only a few can match/beat him in sabers. The way I see it, Grievous kills everyone and then.....

 

Fisto destroys with the Shii-Cho advantage!!!

Kit Fisto for Prime Minister.

 

[Beniboybling]

Take that Hunger Games nonsense elsewhere Pads, this is a place for intellectual discussion.

[PadsterPwns]

Take that Hunger Games nonsense elsewhere Pads, this is a place for intellectual discussion.

Ngl, I didn't realize I'd posted in the wrong thread.

 

Besides, that is an intellectual post.