Relative difficulty of new HM FP's

[Exquisitr]

I agree with the OP. I've tried Korriban several times now and pugs just can't get past the second boss. The disparity in difficulty between FP (Rishi) and HMs (tython which was bugged and Korriban which overwhelms most healers) doesn't teach good skills. Add to this that the rewards are pretty blaise, and well there's no reason to run them. Believe it or not, I enjoy running pugs, it used to be fun. I'm a pretty experienced player (7 years in WoW, raiding for 4 years), but probably average in my skill set. I should be able to clear the 60s, but I've pretty much given up on them, and this has been a disappoint to me.

[tdmaha]

I agree with the OP. I've tried Korriban several times now and pugs just can't get past the second boss. The disparity in difficulty between FP (Rishi) and HMs (tython which was bugged and Korriban which overwhelms most healers) doesn't teach good skills. Add to this that the rewards are pretty blaise, and well there's no reason to run them. Believe it or not, I enjoy running pugs, it used to be fun. I'm a pretty experienced player (7 years in WoW, raiding for 4 years), but probably average in my skill set. I should be able to clear the 60s, but I've pretty much given up on them, and this has been a disappoint to me.

 

 

So you admit to being average (nothing wrong with that btw) but then give up when faced with a challenge? How do you expect to get better if everytime you are faced with a challenging situation you just throw your hands in the air and say screw it I'm done?

[EarnestBunbury]

I can clear HM Korriban in less than 20 minutes.

Taking this out of context just to say that the whole Security Commander fight alone takes 20 freaking minutes. But the point is that the "HM" part varies quite a lot between each of the FP's and it seems that no one is actually overseeing the final product, other than the Cartel Money that is.

[NrDLeipe]

if a boss fight in any of the fps takes 20 minutes then there is something horribly wrong with the dps.

 

even 1st boss manaan doesnt take so long aslong certain mechanics are triggered the way they should be

( doable in 1 shield removal attack both droids same time wich results in more dps time on the boss before his shield return, tank makes sure the boss will get hit by the abilty the droids do the red beams on the floor that will result in more dps on boss )

 

Droid korriban , avoid stuff aint that hard, adds are a joke cause 1 good aoe kills them, boss start to do his random attack the 1 he targets pops a def cd time enough to see it comeing, repeat till boss is dead

Edited January 19, 2015 by NrDLeipe

[shinkabuto]

First of I think OP is right when he says there is no content to prepare you for these HM flashpoints. Especially manaan. If you get manaan first, you might get scared of HMs. But doing korriban or Rakata are relatively easy, so maybe this must be the preparation.

 

But,

there is not much difficulty in this game. I played my inquisitor as a dps for a while and changed it to heal so I could help out my guild. We tried for the first time the HM mode last week. It was finally challenging and rewarding.

 

To learn how to play your heal class correctly, I don't see any alternative to operation except HM 60. You won't learn to play your heal in tactical or hm 55 or even operation 55 and below. I've tried staying heal in these and it was SOOOOO boring (well didn't do much operation 60 so I can't say much about those)

 

So let's say they nerf the HM 60. If you didn't play heal before, good luck learning your class before going on operation. I imagine it is not that much different for tanks.

 

The group from my guild didn't do any operation. we have are full 186 at least with a few 192. One of us had done the HMs (except for thyton) before and he knew most of the fights and could explain them to us. We used mumble. But we don't have any raid gear.

 

So korriban and Rakata are really easy, it's almost like we are on tactical. Then comes thyton wich was quite a bit more challenging. The first boss made me sweat quite a bit, but we didn't wipe on him. The other bosses are easy except the last.

Sometimes you will have a bad combo with the tank stunned by one of the droids and then into the AE which will take probably a bit more than 50% of his life, and then if you are unlucky he will make the group levitate and will just kill the tank without you being able to do anything. Happened twice yesterday, 2 wipes because of that but we just tried again and finally it worked on 3rd try.

 

So that leaves Manaan which is really the hardest. We still did it first time going there. We wiped 4 times on the boss bonus (with the explosives droid) but no wipe on anything else in that fp.

I remember cleary that I was physically tired after the 5 tries on the bonus boss, it was so demanding for myself as heal.

But really, this was a GOOD THING for me. Finally some challenge. When I played in vanilla, the 50 HM flashpoints were comparable if I remember right. Remember wiping quite a bit more actually.

 

So clearly these FPs are meant to be done by people who can play their classes, and it is a good thing, because you will have to get to that level of play to be efficient in operations. Where will you learn if not in those HM flashpoints?

 

 

PS : for people who complain about the HM being too difficult in PUG. Well so you want to be able to clean the hardest group content with people who don't know how to play the game. Let's face it, PUG are random, sometimes you will have a good group sometimes you will have a DPS assassin taunting mobs every combat (happened to me, it's realy fun as a healer).

So well, I heard wow is really more casual than before, maybe you should try that.

Edited January 19, 2015 by shinkabuto

[Pagy]

if a boss fight in any of the fps takes 20 minutes then there is something horribly wrong with the dps.

 

even 1st boss manaan doesnt take so long aslong certain mechanics are triggered the way they should be

( doable in 1 shield removal attack both droids same time wich results in more dps time on the boss before his shield return, tank makes sure the boss will get hit by the abilty the droids do the red beams on the floor that will result in more dps on boss )

 

Droid korriban , avoid stuff aint that hard, adds are a joke cause 1 good aoe kills them, boss start to do his random attack the 1 he targets pops a def cd time enough to see it comeing, repeat till boss is dead

agree on dps

 

in simple terms, the difference between a seasoned raiders dps and anyone "off the street" is very different. its always interesting being in a parser with someone for the first time because they typically get outdpsed by A LOT. thing about dps is: you have no idea how bad you are unless you do take the time to parse and compare to other players. when a healer or tank is bad, it's more readily apparently that they need to "do better". a bad dpser can fall between the cracks for sure just out of ignorance or being carried all the time.

[FunkiMunki]

!st, people need to learn to play i know cliche blah blah but seriously kill order all over the place see most dps still spread out on diffrent targets instead of burning 1 at the time ( from weak to strong )

 

2nd, AVOID **** if theres a circle under your feet that usualy indicates to move out, but ye most player are tunneled visioned .

If ppl AVOID **** more the healing will become alot more relaxing aswell/

 

3rd The use of ccs, if a tank cant handle all the mobs cc 1 or 2 that hit the hardest, again relaxing for the healers.

 

4th Gear yourself, tons of ppl running in blue crap they found during there 12x xp bonus and they lack the knowledge aswell what to do in a fp cause they never seen 1. ( 12 x xp is for this reason alone so frking bad ! )

 

This is just some examples what ppl can do to improve but this is the logic in almost every mmo, you cant do **** if the player him/her self have no clue what they are doing.

 

Its new content Basicly a blank page, you dont overgear **** anymore and ppl cant carry you slackers true the content atm cause its NEW content that requires all of the above.

 

Dont scream nerf , look at yourselfs 1st what your doing wrong cause nerfing this stuff ( wich issnt rly that hard as ppl claim it is ) will not improve the game imo

But... I used 12x XP to level my Jugg, and I know you love having me and my Jugg on DPS duties

 

Seriously though, these flashpoints are not that bad at all. They require a little bit of thinking as pointed out above is all, and like many people have mentioned in a few months when we all have full set bonus and optimized gear again they will be face roll easy like 55HMs were. I'd personally love to see NiM flashpoints introduced for that very reason.

 

People who are struggling really do need to stop asking for nerfs on everything, and rather look at how they can improve themselves. I'm far from a 'top tier' player and I can take most of my freshly leveled, basic comm gear wearing alts into these flashpoints and perform well enough. If i fail dps checks or die too easy then that is my fault not the difficulty level, so i learn from my mistakes, do a little research and/or testing and improve my performance on that character.

 

As for healing, it is a bit tough at times. I'm new to healing and currently practicing on my sorc (186 basic comm geared) and apart from some wipes on large spike damage I can heal through them fairly well. And those wipes again are my responsibility to learn and improve on... my healer guildies can heal through them easily enough, so I accept it is me who needs to get better, no need to call for nerfs.

[FunkiMunki]

agree on dps

 

in simple terms, the difference between a seasoned raiders dps and anyone "off the street" is very different. its always interesting being in a parser with someone for the first time because they typically get outdpsed by A LOT. thing about dps is: you have no idea how bad you are unless you do take the time to parse and compare to other players. when a healer or tank is bad, it's more readily apparently that they need to "do better". a bad dpser can fall between the cracks for sure just out of ignorance or being carried all the time.

I couldn't agree more. Parsing isn't just a tool for trying to set record breaking dummy parses.... you can learn a LOT from running one and looking back through the logs in real fights.

[Warrgames]

The only problem with these HM is that they start off as tact where you can ignore mech. Now that you have to do the mech, groups fail to complete the HM. There isn't a HM FP in the game that is hard if you do the mech. I'm afraid of the 2 new HM coming in 3.1. Because of all the stupid things I see in tact right now.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Bottom line is this and only this: DON'T RUN A HARD MODE FLASHPOINT IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT OF THE WORD "HARD". Learn the mechanics, DO NOT QUEUE if your gear is ****. If someone pops in horribly under geared then kick them so they learn. Edited January 19, 2015 by ZETA_SCORPII

[psandak]

I disagree.

 

The problem with the new HMFPs is not the content but the way in which PuGs generally approach it. Too many falsely believe that because they could ROFLStomp 55HMFPs at the end of 2.x, and can ROFLStomp level 60 tacticals now, that they can ROFLStomp 60HMFPs.

 

For the most part this is NOT the case. CC should be used and abided by. Group members need to communicate (that can mean either relaying that you do not know the content and request guidance, or asking the question "does anyone not know this fight?" or putting out gentle reminders of mechanics and most importantly being understanding). And players should not just charge in expecting their "teammates" to bail them out.

 

Patience, Communication, and Compassion are keys to success in new HMFPs

 

• Patience: take your time, think things through a little, do not just charge in
  
• Communication: admitting you are unfamiliar with the content, advising new players on what to do, and reminding everyone what should happen (but not in a condescending manner)
  
• Compassion: Understanding that **** Happens, accepting it, and making adjustments for it.
  

Edited January 19, 2015 by psandak

[lightSaberAddiCt]

"186 with some 192s" problem is that you need to do those FPs to get the 192s. if that's whats needed for those FPs then they are in fact too hard. I think part of the problem though is that you have the difficulty level increase combined with the nerf to healers. it's a nasty double punch that has left people reeling

 

You can do the 60 HMs in 178, 186 is facepalm easy, then the end boss gives you a piece of 192 to begin gearing for the next stage....OPs.

[Kingsbount]

The only thing that bothers me in new HM is a lack of wise development.

 

Too much knocks, stuns and aggro dump.

Im sorry, but from the tank perspective its NOT FUN AT ALL.

 

Yeah, new FP was fun as tacticals, when roles wasn't so important.

But when BW put same mechanics as HM...

It's a complete garbage, where players can't do anything but follow sick fantasy of FP devs.

 

Flashpoints are NOT OPEREATIONS!!

They don't need this artifically increased difficulty.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

The only thing that bothers me in new HM is a lack of wise development.

 

Too much knocks, stuns and aggro dump.

Im sorry, but from the tank perspective its NOT FUN AT ALL.

 

Yeah, new FP was fun as tacticals, when roles wasn't so important.

But when BW put same mechanics as HM...

It's a complete garbage, where players can't do anything but follow sick fantasy of FP devs.

 

Flashpoints are NOT OPEREATIONS!!

They don't need this artifically increased difficulty.

 

But it's Hard Mode, it's supposed to be more difficult than tactical FP's.

[Pagy]

Flashpoints are NOT OPEREATIONS!!

They don't need this artifically increased difficulty.

these are hard mode flashpoints.

 

they drop 192

 

same as operations

[GadgetDon]

But it's Hard Mode, it's supposed to be more difficult than tactical FP's.

 

The problem is that they're hard mode of tactical flashpoints. Tactical flashpoints are their own beasts, designed so you don't need tanks or healing so there isn't a lot of concern about whether a tank or healer is particularly effective. (The big fights are largely designed around the use of the kolto stations as big aoe healing mechanism, even though no players have AOE heals nearly that effective.) And tanks get knocked around and mechanisms galore to keep the tank from holding aggro.

 

When they become hard modes, those mechanisms are still in place (big aoe damage, aggro-shifting) with damage ramped up, new mechanisms added, etc. As someone who often runs a healer, I am NOT looking forward to HM Blood Hunt.

 

If there were level 60 flashpoints, full flashpoints designed around a tank and a healer and two DPS, that would not only give a step between the tacticals and the HMs, but the HM versions of the flashpoints would at their base still be designed around a tank and a healer and two DPS. (Interestingly, Battle of Rishi always felt more like a regular flashpoint, so it may be less of a step up in HM.)

[Bravari]

totally disagree. I welcome the difficulty of HM FPs, and think it is fine. It does not take much competence to be able to clear a HM FP.

[FAAmecanic]

I just re-downloaded ESO.

 

^^This^^ (IRT to OPS not the FPs) and to add to that the THREE guilds I run with are dwindling in numbers fast (one is dead already). So the chances of me even completing a 60 HM OPS is slim.

 

Add to that the screwed up 186's and higher balancing of armor/mods/enhancements means grinding for the same piece of armor 2 or 3 times.... same stuff/mistakes BIO/EA has been making the last 3 years. I think the last time I ever had a top piece of well balanced PvE gear was a chest piece in the first season...lol

Edited January 19, 2015 by FAAmecanic

[FAAmecanic]

So you admit to being average (nothing wrong with that btw) but then give up when faced with a challenge? How do you expect to get better if everytime you are faced with a challenging situation you just throw your hands in the air and say screw it I'm done?

 

Agreed...except when Im paying out $50k in credits or more every time we wipe...this gets really old, really fast.

 

If it wasn't for such high repair bills I may consider more PUGs to learn the fights better.. But I don't have time to run dailies everyday (working 10+ hr days) so I can have a repair budget every weekend.

[Toweleeeie]

The OP and the people agreeing with him need to stay out HARD mode flashpoints. Stick to tacticles and be happy you can do those.

 

HM flashpoints are there to train you for the new Ops. If you are having issues on Manaan you will never make it past Underlurker or Bulos.

 

If you don't plan on doing Ops, then you don't need anything beyond basic comms.

 

Rumor has it that Bioware was pissed that players got thru DF and DP so quickly after launch and they ramped up the difficulty on the new content in response.

 

I'm glad the difficulty was ramped up. The new content is great minus the bugs.

[kirorx]

I think alot of fhe difficulty has to do with the fact that they are new. Like someone else mentioned, the 55 hardmodes were difficult at first too. Gear is also a factor, currently you run with people wearing "meh" gear, give it a couple months and you will see a difference.

[Quraswren]

The new Hm's I don't find to bad now that the first boss in Tython is fixed and the packs are easily controlled if you just use a bit of CC. IT wont kill you, use some CC.

 

However, the bonus boss in Korriban and rakata are not worth the time to even see.

 

Tython bonus boss is decent. I have not done the other yet.

 

Overall, there not terrible, they have a bit of difficulty (tython first boss is still a bit of a headache). Bonus boss not worth the time in 2 out of 3 cases so far.