BuriDogshin Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Now what kind of failed credit sink is that which creates such stupidly huge amounts of money out of thin air. Most of your credits and all of your profits came from other players, not thin air. That money was earned somehow, right? So, taking into account you and all the people you sold stuff to, the total amount of money all of you have is now less by the cost of the chips minus whatever credits you got by vendoring (not GTN'ing) items -- that's over a million credits, right? Oh, and the GTN tax sunk some credits too. Pretty good credit sink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taramayne Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) good day. I agree with the last comment you typed in chat on the reward picture. There is no "money out of thin air" here. It was all already in the game, and you spent some of yours just to have the rest moved over to you. Edited January 17, 2015 by Taramayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neglience Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Most of your credits and all of your profits came from other players, not thin air. That money was earned somehow, right? So, taking into account you and all the people you sold stuff to, the total amount of money all of you have is now less by the cost of the chips minus whatever credits you got by vendoring (not GTN'ing) items -- that's over a million credits, right? Oh, and the GTN tax sunk some credits too. Pretty good credit sink. they could have just raised the cost for crew missions as someone pointed out here. better credit sink and the crew missions would still have a meaning in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lironBD Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 I agree with the last comment you typed in chat on the reward picture. There is no "money out of thin air" here. It was all already in the game, and you spent some of yours just to have the rest moved over to you. I'll give you points for watching the pictures before posting it's more then other people here did, Also no need to take humors remark made after hours of rolling in benefit of science as to fuel your hate toward your incapability to make some more useful post detailing your opinion on the matters at hand instead of your feeling toward my mental stability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariojediwookie Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Making it cost 10k will make an ineffective credit sink since you want people to use it. The machine is already a credit sink, the total amount of credits is being reduced. Small credit sink, yes. Overall though it has removed the need for doing any gathering missions which I can assure is a MUCH bigger credit sink than the slot machine is currently. So net effect IMO the rate of credits being removed has been reduced with the slot machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metthew Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Twi'Lek Dancers sell for over 40k on my server, so the value of the CM certs after GTN 6% fee is 413,600 ... WOOPS. I just made 245,000 credits before converting any Jawa Junk into any artifact level crafting material. This means that Artifact Level Crafting Materials are now FREE!What shouldn't last long is Twilek dancers costing 40k on your server, or people buying them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatFrosty Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Fixed for you. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taramayne Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I'll give you points for watching the pictures before posting it's more then other people here did, Also no need to take humors remark made after hours of rolling in benefit of science as to fuel your hate toward your incapability to make some more useful post detailing your opinion on the matters at hand instead of your feeling toward my mental stability. Nobody forced you to perform this test. It isn't "for science". Its just so you can try to validate your opinion on the subject. Nobody forced you to type that last chat line either, and it's not like I copy/pasted it here, so please lighten up. I wanted to remind you so that maybe you might try listening to yourself. You are entitled to your opinion, just as I and others are entitled to disagree with and/or disregard it. Good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariojediwookie Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Most of your credits and all of your profits came from other players, not thin air. That money was earned somehow, right? So, taking into account you and all the people you sold stuff to, the total amount of money all of you have is now less by the cost of the chips minus whatever credits you got by vendoring (not GTN'ing) items -- that's over a million credits, right? Oh, and the GTN tax sunk some credits too. Pretty good credit sink. Until you realize that all those gathering missions people HAD to run to get purple mats are a thing of the past. 15-18% critical on a mission that costs 3-4k to run. That is an effective credit sink. Think about it, the results of this change is pretty clear since noone in their right mind would run missions right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) What shouldn't last long is Twilek dancers costing 40k on your server, or people buying them. Like I said, they can go as low as 20k and the Jawa Junk still makes artifact materials free. Every single one of the CM Certificate personnel are over 40k on my server right now. You can wish and hope all you want that BioWare won't nerf this but it won't change what they will announce as soon as sales of this pack start to decrease. Me, I'm going to spend the weekend playing the slots like an old lady who just won a million bucks on a scratch off lottery ticket. Edited January 17, 2015 by DarthTHC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theeko Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Like I said, they can go as low as 20k and the Jawa Junk still makes artifact materials free. Every single one of the CM Certificate personnel are over 40k on my server right now. You can wish and hope all you want that BioWare won't nerf this but it won't change what they will announce as soon as sales of this pack start to decrease. Me, I'm going to spend the weekend playing the slots like an old lady who just won a million bucks on a scratch off lottery ticket. Exactly, myself and others have decided not to buy anymore packs just for the fact you can obtain rep and certs in game now for no effort whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiaowZedong Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 It is a credit sink but a rather inconsequential one. 70k reputation is not really a large ammount and after that they refinance to what feels like 2/3 of the chip cost per stack of chips used. If you put through say 5 stacks of chips and via that at a generous estimate take 125k credits out of the system the significance of that effect on the economy pales next to the fact there's probably around a stack of new 99 purple jawa tokens now in the system. You're way understating its significance as a sink, at least relative to existing sinks. The classic sinks are things like training costs, character/legacy perk costs and repair money. They may sink more credits in one go than buying a stack of chips for the slot machines, but they're all one-time costs or in the case of repairs, they hugely decline after your first few progression runs. You wipe a lot on new content but after a while you have the gear and the experience to just farm it, so content ends up generating far more credits than it sinks. Credit sinks have been failing in MMO since the first time someone had the (bad) idea to create some because they're completely detached from any real economic activity. The advantage of the slots is that people will keep using them for a long time. To generate mats for gearing alts/offspecs, for conquest, for vanity items/SH/guild ships or to get cartel certificates for the cartel rep vendors or just because someone enjoys them (I'm sure some do), all these activities will lead to cash being removed from the economy. In addition, the slot machines fuel two other cash sinks, GTN commissions and buying items than require cartel certificates+credits. So they will, over the long term, have an absolutely significant effect as a sink. Now I'm not arguing that BW have just solved the problem of MMO cash sinks failing, because they haven't (the fact is real economies do not use arbitrary cash sinks and simulating them with arbitrary cash sinks would be extremely complex). But in terms of long-term viability, this is one of the better ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varium Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Exactly, myself and others have decided not to buy anymore packs just for the fact you can obtain rep and certs in game now for no effort whatsoever. This, I was thinking of buying hypercrates in order to get the binary star to legend but now i'm just going to wait for the binary star slot machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariojediwookie Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 This, I was thinking of buying hypercrates in order to get the binary star to legend but now i'm just going to wait for the binary star slot machine. yep, according to Eric they are only going to adjust the jawa junk drop. everything else appears to be working as they wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lironBD Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 yep, according to Eric they are only going to adjust the jawa junk drop. everything else appears to be working as they wanted. That will be saddening and if this issue won't be drastically adjusted I'll reconsider my sub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_cpa Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 This is really pretty simple economics. BW is reducing the cost on the supply side of the equation. Lower costs will lead to higher supply. Higher supply (while keeping demand constant - which of course doesn't happen as demand will change somewhat as well) will lead to lower GTN price. GTN price is a function of supply and demand. Supply is a function of cost to produce (time, credits, and real currency from Cartel Coin market). Demand is a function of how much do GTN market participants want an item and how many credits are they willing to spend to get it. BW may be trying to do 2 things at the same time, 1) lower overall GTN prices to some benchmark level, and 2) drain some credits from the economy. I suspect #1 is more important to them at this point in time than #2. From Eric's post, it appears someone is monitoring the GTN economy and will adjust the supply side (via drop rates, coin price, etc.) if #1 is achieved and #2 is now suffering (i.e. not enough crafting missions being run). My guess is that BW wants to bring overall GTN prices down by increasing the supply of those items on the GTN and then worry about the effectiveness of point #2 later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 yep, according to Eric they are only going to adjust the jawa junk drop. everything else appears to be working as they wanted. No, that is not what he wrote at all. He wrote they are going to look at drop rates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnAskham Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) Most of your credits and all of your profits came from other players, not thin air. That money was earned somehow, right? So, taking into account you and all the people you sold stuff to, the total amount of money all of you have is now less by the cost of the chips minus whatever credits you got by vendoring (not GTN'ing) items -- that's over a million credits, right? Oh, and the GTN tax sunk some credits too. Pretty good credit sink. In order to evaluate the effectiveness of this as a credit sink, you would have to compare the credits removed to obtain the mats through slots versus the credits removed obtaining the mats through mission skills. I haven't seen anyone post up analysis showing how the slot machine either maintains or improves upon the status quo for credits removed to obtain materials over the existing mission skills. Even more difficult is analyzing and forecasting the affects on the larger game from having a deco which allows anyone to obtain a large amount of purple G11 materials in a short amount of time for little cost, with no requirement to level a crew skill. Beyond the effects to the market, the larger concern for me if I were managing the game would be any longer term effects on the game through players gearing themselves faster through the use of the slots. Will they quickly obtain gear and augments and such in a compressed time frame and start demanding new content sooner than in the past, and / or will some of them let their subs lapse sooner than would have been expected? Edited January 17, 2015 by DawnAskham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariojediwookie Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 No, that is not what he wrote at all. He wrote they are going to look at drop rates. oh really, here is the exact quote: "With that being said, we do hear the concern from many of you around the effects of the Jawa Junk’s drop rate on the economy. We are going to take a look at it and make changes accordingly. I will let you know once I know more. In the meantime, have fun!" He doesn't mention ANYTHING about rep items or certificates. The Jawa Junk's drop rate to the economy is the only thing he says they will take a look at and make changes based on their findings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lironBD Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 My guess is that BW wants to bring overall GTN prices down by increasing the supply of those items on the GTN and then worry about the effectiveness of point #2 later. And demand? at some point people won't need those items and their prices will drop like crap. see before the new 3-color crystals grade 11 color crystals were 20-60 credits per unit now they are closer to 300 per unit. when there is no demand there is no worth. Before stronghold and conquest most mats lower then max levels were worth nothing, l50 ops mats were worth nothing... moment the conquest was introduced and all materials were needed they gained value. Same here, so long as there is some demand they will have value moment there is not enough demand due to gtn being overloaded with merchandise there will be no worth in it. I remember days before the cartel market when we had 2-3 daily areas at top and 2-3 ops only and money was hard to come by and gear. this days only things worth purchase are those so expansive in the millions and mostly they are either crafted RE'd 192 stuff or cartel market items with very rare drops. this are what makes people whales in the game. someone purchase hypercrate for real money each month sells it on gtn or open it get some rare stuff and sell those for millions, crafting is an art it takes patience. And while we are at that the entire idea of Jawa scrap merchants for me at least is wrong. if we had to gather mats by re-visiting old planets to farm nodes (things we used to do back at the day) or actually run FP\Ops of lower levels for the mats drops it would have added to the value of revisiting old content. With Jawa junk you don't need to bother just cherry pick which ever mats you want. Boggle the mind you can have any crafting material for 1 token just like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 oh really, here is the exact quote: "With that being said, we do hear the concern from many of you around the effects of the Jawa Junk’s drop rate on the economy. We are going to take a look at it and make changes accordingly. I will let you know once I know more. In the meantime, have fun!" If they are going to look at it, they might find that no changes are necessary. Or, theoretically, they might increase winning chances. The post states "make changes accordingly." You read "reduce the chances of winning Jawa junk." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
znihilist Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 If they are going to look at it, they might find that no changes are necessary. Or, theoretically, they might increase winning chances. The post states "make changes accordingly." You read "reduce the chances of winning Jawa junk." Oh come on let's be real here, they are not going to increase it. With the amount of crying over this (justified or not) there is no way in hell they keep it the way it is right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Oh come on let's be real here, they are not going to increase it. Probably not. But "take a look and adjust accordingly" does not, at this point, mean, "We are going to decrease Jawa junk drop rates." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaximumOD Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 So here's the real problem with the machines, and why they will be nerfed, and why the nerf won't just be to Jawa Junk returns. Keep in mind this is a small sample size. I will run a sample size hopefully dozens of times larger by the end of the weekend. I bought 4 stacks of tokens for 198,000 and ran them all through until none were left. That resulted in (tracking only things of value): 37 Confiscated Artwork 38 Prohibited Medical Supplies 50 Banned Holovids 11 CM Certificates 45 Jawa Junk Purchase Price of Tokens was 198,000 Vendor Value on Rep Items is 29,500 Twi'Lek Dancers sell for over 40k on my server, so the value of the CM certs after GTN 6% fee is 413,600 ... WOOPS. I just made 245,000 credits before converting any Jawa Junk into any artifact level crafting material. This means that Artifact Level Crafting Materials are now FREE! That's probably not going to last. Have you ever even considered that this will most likely ruin the gold farmers.... The dancers will be basically much lower cost they should have been around 5-10 k tops as for crafting this lets everyone craft... and btw even you admit you lost money on the rep items.... so ounce the prices of all the crafting materials normalize and the rep items you can sell hit there bottom what effect will it have. It will allow everyone to craft items GREAT !!! It will lower prices and let more people have access to cartel rep items ... BTW Revans mask is now also worthless why not QQ about that too. ALSO GREAT !!!!! And the last effect it will make it impossible to Screw others by farming mats non stop with bots.. think about this one it will most likely strip the Gold farmer of one of his greatest tools I honestly think they need to just make the mission free to even further free up resources to the player base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lironBD Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 I honestly think they need to just make the mission free to even further free up resources to the player base. I bet you also want free sub and "kill anything" button added as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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