Vhaegrant Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 That or they make it better but also fix this one. That would be my wildly optimistic position. Maybe the Devs have decided to spend the time balancing future releases and the current at the same time, rather than rushing out another fix on the current one that may not adequately balance future releases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djiini Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Guys, great news! Bioware heard that this is still being complained about and they're reevaluating the Slot Machine! Wait, no, they didn't. My bad. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vhaegrant Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) Guys, great news! Bioware heard that this is still being complained about and they're reevaluating the Slot Machine! Wait, no, they didn't. My bad. Sorry. Thanks that adds so much to the conversation As long as a discussion doesn't turn hostile I don't think there's any reason a moderator needs to step in. And from experience on other long running posts there's no reason to expect an answer from a Dev based on size. Contrary to popular male belief size is not the most important factor. I would imagine that most of the forum trawling is handled by the community team (not just the official forums but external channels as well) and frequent concerns are noted. These concerns are probably put into a bulletin and discussed at a weekly meeting (there may be an emergency button if a topic explodes but I think the upper echelons would frown on it being pushed too often - from my experience when a manager says 'My door is always open.' what they mean is you better have a very, very good reason for bothering me and if you don't expect to be working the next weekend or two ) Individual Devs probably drop in for a read but I would imagine it would be more focused on class forums, bugs and the suggestions rather than the deep end of general discussion. Even if they saw something they wanted to answer I would imagine there is a strict code of practice with regards to what they can post (along the lines of run it past the community team, check with team leader, PR team, oh wait why aren't you in your booth programming get back in there and let us worry about the forums ) Seriously though, if I was a game developer, as much as I would like to read the open forums I do not think it would be good practice without some sort of filter and regulation in place. Edited February 27, 2015 by Vhaegrant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muljo_Stpho Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 (edited) That would be my wildly optimistic position. Maybe the Devs have decided to spend the time balancing future releases and the current at the same time, rather than rushing out another fix on the current one that may not adequately balance future releases. Yep. They released something that was poorly thought out to begin with (and which compounded an issue with another poorly thought out feature, the flat pricing scheme on the Jawa vendors (who picked up grade 11 materials at the same time that the slot machine was added)) and it blew up on us very quickly, then they rushed a kneejerk reaction to counteract the situation and people have (rightfully) been pointing out that the changes went way too far in the other direction. So what they really need is for someone to put some long and careful consideration into the next machine (not just for drop rates of scrap and certificates, but adding many other worthwhile prizes as well (mounts, gear, customizations, decorations, etc. or a "prize ticket" reward system with revamped rep vendors so that their stock can be associated with the machines through those)) and then use that as the model for how to fix the first one correctly. Will they actually do that? Who knows. But we can hope. edit: Brainstorming an idea here (all numbers are for demonstration only and are subject to change to whatever the developers want them to be, of course)... Suppose that the model for the slot machine revamp looks something like this: 1) standard 20% chance to lose and 20% chance to get your token back 2) first tier rewards (no jackpot fanfare) have a combined 33% chance to drop, this includes the appropriate green, blue, and purple rep items (in that order from most to least common) 3) second tier rewards (minor jackpot) have a combined 22% chance to drop and include the following "currency" tokens (in order from most to least common): premium materials prize ticket, prototype materials prize ticket, artifact materials prize ticket, reputation prize ticket, and cartel market certificate (the last one would most likely end up with a value less than 1% like it currently has) 4) My numbers above leave 5% chance leftover here for a third tier of rewards and higher (major jackpots, disco ball). Perhaps a few specific items, are offered up as possibilities to win directly. Ultra rare exclusive possibilities would of course have values less than 1%. 5) Jawa vendors add to their stock some random material lockboxes. Pricing could look something like 1 ticket for a grade 1-3 box, 3 tickets for a grade 4-6 box, 5 tickets for a grade 7-9 box, and 7 tickets for a grade 10-12 box. Each box contains a few random units of materials randomly selected from all in that quality and grade. 6) Reputation vendors pick up duplicates of their stock with options to buy using either cartel certs or prize tickets. The prize tickets act as a more easily obtained alternative to cartel certificates. Pay with more tickets and fewer credits to obtain the same items. And since rep vendor sales are bound to the purchaser, prize tickets are for personal use only. The unbound decorations which cartel certificates can buy from the stronghold vendors would remain exclusive to cartel certificates. Basically, where materials are concerned in this idea, I'm picturing this making it a bit easier again to get drops related to materials but those drops would be tiered by grade (something like:1 ticket for 6 random units of anything in grades 1-3 for the matching quality VS 7 tickets for 3 random units of anything in grades 10-12 for the matching quality) and you'd have the random factor instead of getting to choose specific rewards to cash in (like we can with Jawa scrap items) so you might not get the most valuable (according to the GTN at the time) materials each time you do it. (Don't forget that for premium (green) materials this includes color crystals too.) Edited February 28, 2015 by Muljo_Stpho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshlaBoga Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I just want them to keep their promise and release new slot machines that use the old coins (I saved 496 coins). Slot Machines that pretty much only exist to give you reputation are still cool (since I'd never open enough packs to hit Legend with any of the Shipments). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachSDMF Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Maybe it's been mentioned in this thread (I haven't read all 100 pages...) but I am curious if there's an chatter or chance of other Rep items dropping from the slots, IE: Bounty, I.C.E., etc? That would be fantastic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salaviir Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 (edited) Still at it guys?! Seriously? Rofl. I find it quite depressing how out of all things in SW:TOR we, as community , should look into, a freaking slot machine keeps maintaining the place in the sun. Everybody with basic understanding of any kind of MMO economy(hell, economy to begin with) must have known nerf is imminent. Then, the Imminent nerf came. People began to cry. This thread holds absolutely no value whatsoever. One notable exception: It is an important case study to just how loud a very small, very loud, very angry minority can get. Waaaah BW nerfed machine that was destroying economy waaah waaah Hahaha ...My only regret is that I didn't spend weekend using the F out of the unnerfed, ridiculously broken slot machine while I could. Obscene amount of millions to be made right there. Edited February 28, 2015 by Salaviir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muljo_Stpho Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I just want them to keep their promise and release new slot machines that use the old coins (I saved 496 coins). Slot Machines that pretty much only exist to give you reputation are still cool (since I'd never open enough packs to hit Legend with any of the Shipments). And if that's the model that's going to end up being the format for all future machines (assuming they haven't just scrapped the idea entirely after the way this one blew up) then we'll just have to get over it and never put so much as a single coin into any machine for which we're already rep-capped. Because there is zero incentive to do so if there is no sense of rewards. It's understandable that they would want it to be a credit sink, not a credit generator or a reliable tool to produce masses of profitable goods to sell. But doing that should involve something more in the direction of creating a fair chance to receive bind on pickup / bind to legacy items as prizes, not nerfing to oblivion everything interesting on it to turn the machine into little more than a rep item dispenser. The current rarity of scrap / certs could be rendered an insignificant detail if we had a considerable number of other options to hope for on every spin. We'd be playing for those non-lucrative prizes, and the on the rare occasion that we get a lucrative currency item on the side it would just be a nice bonus. Get that lose rate back down to where it started (was originally 20%, is currently something more like 30-35%) and fill up the difference with a variety of mounts, pets, emotes, gear, or whatever else (within the theme of the related rep category for the machine, mostly)). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelersWay Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Still at it guys?! Seriously? Rofl. I find it quite depressing how out of all things in SW:TOR we, as community , should look into, a freaking slot machine keeps maintaining the place in the sun. Everybody with basic understanding of any kind of MMO economy(hell, economy to begin with) must have known nerf is imminent. Then, the Imminent nerf came. People began to cry. This thread holds absolutely no value whatsoever. One notable exception: It is an important case study to just how loud a very small, very loud, very angry minority can get. Waaaah BW nerfed machine that was destroying economy waaah waaah Hahaha ...My only regret is that I didn't spend weekend using the F out of the unnerfed, ridiculously broken slot machine while I could. Obscene amount of millions to be made right there. Actually you are missing the point (and mis-generalizing a lot of players here), and you are underestimating just how many people are frustrated by this issue. This incident is more than just the slot machine and the nerf to the Jawa Junk. There are a great many people that are upset by the entire issue (which you fail to grasp) which has been the cause of several long time and hardened supporters of this game to unsub and quit the game. 1) Most people are upset at the fact that the CSM was released in the state it was with no forethought given to the potential damage that could be had by a long term implementation, which points out the severe lack of proper testing and vetting procedures by BioWare. 2) Several people are upset that result of the initial implementation pointed out some flaws in the current mission gathering system which caused the CSM to be the problem it was, and that these flaws have been unaddressed since the game's launch by BioWare. 3) The only real communication on the topic was a post by Eric saying that the machine was working as intended, but that the team would re-evaluate the drop rate of the Jawa Junk. 4) All drops rates were nerfed, quite unnecessarily, in addition to the Jawa Junk rate (which most people agreed needed and expected a nerf), thereby making the previously "working as intended" CM item virtually worthless to a great many players. 5) The only other "communication" on the topic was a mention by the team at a Cantina event which only a very, very, very small portion of the playerbase could attend, and said information became available via only third party intervention. 6) Essentially, this entire fiasco was completely mis-handled by BioWare, and it is only because of their usual lack of open and honest communication with the playerbase (and proper testing and vetting procedures) that has caused this to become a fiasco in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerilas Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Actually you are missing the point (and mis-generalizing a lot of players here), and you are underestimating just how many people are frustrated by this issue. This incident is more than just the slot machine and the nerf to the Jawa Junk. There are a great many people that are upset by the entire issue (which you fail to grasp) which has been the cause of several long time and hardened supporters of this game to unsub and quit the game. 1) Most people are upset at the fact that the CSM was released in the state it was with no forethought given to the potential damage that could be had by a long term implementation, which points out the severe lack of proper testing and vetting procedures by BioWare. 2) Several people are upset that result of the initial implementation pointed out some flaws in the current mission gathering system which caused the CSM to be the problem it was, and that these flaws have been unaddressed since the game's launch by BioWare. 3) The only real communication on the topic was a post by Eric saying that the machine was working as intended, but that the team would re-evaluate the drop rate of the Jawa Junk. 4) All drops rates were nerfed, quite unnecessarily, in addition to the Jawa Junk rate (which most people agreed needed and expected a nerf), thereby making the previously "working as intended" CM item virtually worthless to a great many players. 5) The only other "communication" on the topic was a mention by the team at a Cantina event which only a very, very, very small portion of the playerbase could attend, and said information became available via only third party intervention. 6) Essentially, this entire fiasco was completely mis-handled by BioWare, and it is only because of their usual lack of open and honest communication with the playerbase (and proper testing and vetting procedures) that has caused this to become a fiasco in the first place. Pretty much EVERY point you made here is exactly why the PVP playerbase is always complaining. The only difference with the slot machine is that Bioware ****s this section up with EVERY patch they make trying to fix it. When PVE-ers complain about stuff like this it's no problem, but if PVPers do it the rest of the forum community calls them constant whiners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowermanx Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 4) All drops rates were nerfed, quite unnecessarily Oh really? Shouldn't that be, IMO? Or do you know for a fact that its not exactly were the devs want it to be right now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDymond Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 (edited) Pretty much EVERY point you made here is exactly why the PVP playerbase is always complaining. The only difference with the slot machine is that Bioware ****s this section up with EVERY patch they make trying to fix it. When PVE-ers complain about stuff like this it's no problem, but if PVPers do it the rest of the forum community calls them constant whiners To be fair, a good number of us have been calling the PVE-ers who are still complaining about this "constant whiners" too. ------------------ This 'feature' was probably never supposed to be anything remotely significant to the game, it was just a 'ooh, here's a little something nifty we can throw in among the decorations for this pack', and so it only got as much 'testing and vetting' as something of that caliber warranted. I doubt they poured that many hours of testing into the ceiling lights decorations either. It was only because it happened to interact with a completely separate decision - the addition of Grade 11 mats to the Jawa vendors - that it ended up getting much attention at all. It sucks that the right hand didn't know what the left hand was doing, but, yeah, that happens sometimes. Eric said the machine wasn't a bug and wasn't an exploit (replying to the post-'Ravagergate' crowd who were trying to label anything and everything an 'exploit') - both are true and accurate statements. Saying something isn't a bug and isn't an exploit doesn't mean it won't be changed - it wasn't a bug or an exploit that Operatives had Orbital Strike, but that was removed completely - when people paraphrase Eric as saying 'working as intended' that makes it sound like he was promising it wouldn't change. The CSM is just a minor variation on the Stronghold Slot Machines that do nothing at all, and if that is the intent, then that is fine. This game is pure entertainment, so there's no 'right' or 'wrong' things to care about in it, but I find it amusing that some people consider this decoration so significant to their gaming experience. Edited February 28, 2015 by DarthDymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitblade Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Actually you are missing the point (and mis-generalizing a lot of players here), and you are underestimating just how many people are frustrated by this issue. This incident is more than just the slot machine and the nerf to the Jawa Junk. There are a great many people that are upset by the entire issue (which you fail to grasp) which has been the cause of several long time and hardened supporters of this game to unsub and quit the game. 1) Most people are upset at the fact that the CSM was released in the state it was with no forethought given to the potential damage that could be had by a long term implementation, which points out the severe lack of proper testing and vetting procedures by BioWare. 2) Several people are upset that result of the initial implementation pointed out some flaws in the current mission gathering system which caused the CSM to be the problem it was, and that these flaws have been unaddressed since the game's launch by BioWare. 3) The only real communication on the topic was a post by Eric saying that the machine was working as intended, but that the team would re-evaluate the drop rate of the Jawa Junk. 4) All drops rates were nerfed, quite unnecessarily, in addition to the Jawa Junk rate (which most people agreed needed and expected a nerf), thereby making the previously "working as intended" CM item virtually worthless to a great many players. 5) The only other "communication" on the topic was a mention by the team at a Cantina event which only a very, very, very small portion of the playerbase could attend, and said information became available via only third party intervention. 6) Essentially, this entire fiasco was completely mis-handled by BioWare, and it is only because of their usual lack of open and honest communication with the playerbase (and proper testing and vetting procedures) that has caused this to become a fiasco in the first place. THIS Personally I didn't have a Slot machine, so it didn't affect me. But the whole dishonesty shown. The absolute disinterest shown about the state of their game and the glaring ineptitude of their whole communication department made me utterly disappointed in their whole management, Is there even someone at the helm anymore... I can't believe that they are just sitting there in their crumbling ivory tower doing absolutely Nothing. Completely ignoring the most important discussion points of the whole community, not just the slot nerf, but the PvP, Ops Bug, FPS massive drops for a pretty big portion of players and many other subjects deserving answers. What I ask of this subject is for them to come out and explain themselves and overall to start having MEANINGFUL communication with the playerbase, not just ignore everyone. And NO, a closed cantina event isn't meaningful communication Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Still at it guys?! Seriously? No, this thread ended quite some time ago. No one posts in it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottocamp Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Why I believe the slot machine issue has relevance to the larger game: 1. The slot machine had a social impact. People started inviting others to their strongholds to play the slots. It was certainly the first time I ever invited people to my stronghold. I've heard SWTOR described as the best multi-player game that you play solo. There is certainly an element of truth there. So adding a small feature that increased social interactions was very appealing to a lot of folks. 2. The slot machine highlighted how boring and frustrating the current gathering and crafting mechanisms can be. Sending out crew members is fundamentally little different than playing the slots. The slot machine simply had the advantage of being much faster, flashier and more social than logging in and out of multiple alts. Playing the slots for crafting materials while I chatted with guild mates was kind of fun. Sending out crew members on multiple alts is never fun. 3. The slot machine gave a glimpse into the character of the people running this game. I have no issue with features or abilities being changed or altered mid-game. That is how games work. But it seems unethical to me to actively market and receive money for an item with a certain perceived value and to then immediately and significantly diminish that value. That is not the same as removing Orbital Strike from the game. Sales of the slot machine should have been suspended. Instead BW encouraged people to continue buying the item. It also seems unethical to encourage people to stock up on slot machine tokens in advance of a price increase without a full disclosure of the changes being made to the slot machine. If you have the time to mention the cost increase, then you have time to mention all the drop changes. Adding a mount with a near zero chance of dropping as an offset to the lost value just strikes me as petty, small and a bit mean-spirited. And then never responding to the concerns of your customer-base about the issue (outside of a remark in a Cantina event) - well, that just seems cowardly and insulting. Yes - it is a trivial matter on the surface. But I think it shines a light on deeper issues and problems with the game. Which makes this a worthwhile thread in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelersWay Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Oh really? Shouldn't that be, IMO? Or do you know for a fact that its not exactly were the devs want it to be right now? Woah ho ho! Captain Obvious has graced this thread with his presence!! Well, my Fine Purveyor of Infinite Wisdom, just about everything posted in a gaming forum by a player is opinion in one way or another. However, in this case, based upon the initial complaints and the words written by the CM himself, one can make a very reasonable assumption that the rest of the changes to the drop rates outside of the Jawa Junk were indeed unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muljo_Stpho Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 (edited) Oh really? Shouldn't that be, IMO? Or do you know for a fact that its not exactly were the devs want it to be right now? More like "extremely excessive". *looks up numbers* It went from a combined 32% drop rate for all non-rep prizes to a combined 0.5% drop rate for all non-rep prizes. It was over-generous before, yes. It was rewarding us with mats and certs on almost 1 out of every 3 spins. Now it's more like 1 out of every 200 spins. It went from one extreme to another. We also went from 25% to 45% on the chance to lose. Before, about 1 in 4 tokens purchased were going straight down the toilet. Now, it's closer to 1 in 2. We gained more "consolation prize" (rep item) drops though. Those went from a combined 23% drop rate (about 1 in 4) to just under a combined 34.5% drop rate (about 1 in 3). Before, the larger portion of those drops (green) represented "breaking even" with the purchase cost of a token (ie you could sell a green rep item to a vendor for the same value as purchasing a token). Now, the tokens cost a bit more and a green rep item is worth less than a token. You can "win" and effectively still be a loser. And there are the walker mounts that were added with a pitiful 0.001% drop rate. And that's the only special prize available. It would be a nice prize to chance upon while using the machine to build up the rep from zero, but it's not incentive to use the machine for the sake of that prize alone. If that's the format they really want for this and future machines, if that's really where they want it to be, then that's really where they want it to be and we're all just going to deal with it by pretty much never using the things anyway. (And then what's the point in adding them at all if they're hardly going to get any attention beyond an initial burst from those who don't yet have the rep from them maxed?) But they should be able to find a better solution that would make these machines look attractive for all users (even while technically being guaranteed to be bad for our characters' wallets). If they're clever and careful, this can be done without once again creating a broken situation like what the contraband machine launched with. Edited March 2, 2015 by Muljo_Stpho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Woah ho ho! Captain Obvious has graced this thread with his presence!! Well, my Fine Purveyor of Infinite Wisdom, just about everything posted in a gaming forum by a player is opinion in one way or another. However, in this case, based upon the initial complaints and the words written by the CM himself, one can make a very reasonable assumption that the rest of the changes to the drop rates outside of the Jawa Junk were indeed unnecessary. What are you talking about? They were completely necessary ( nerfs ) just not the nerf we got which was well over the top. I personally felt cartel certs definitely needed a nerf for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frybert Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Ok, I'm impressed. I left about a month ago, coming back because of the promotions. Did not expect this to still be a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Ok, I'm impressed. I left about a month ago, coming back because of the promotions. Did not expect this to still be a thing. Until people get their refunds it will always be a thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hachibushu Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Ok, I'm impressed. I left about a month ago, coming back because of the promotions. Did not expect this to still be a thing. Same here. I think this horse will never be put out of its misery... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Same here. I think this horse will never be put out of its misery... eric has never officially replied on this. it has all been based on hearsay. added to the fact that bw and truth are not always connected, you have a mess of their own creation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDymond Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 (edited) eric has never officially replied on this. it has all been based on hearsay. added to the fact that bw and truth are not always connected, you have a mess of their own creation The fact that they've made the decision not to comment on it doesn't make it any less of a dead horse. They made changes, they probably won't be changing it again (although in the unlikely event that they do, then under those circumstances they should comment again), and they didn't announce all of the changes involved. That's pretty much the final word on the matter. It should have been released in the state it's in now, and barring that both Eric's second post and the Patch Notes should have used the word "including" in them to make it clear that the nerfs specifically mentioned weren't an exhaustive list - but there's no time machine to fix either of those missteps. Responding to this now won't do any more good than commenting on the decision to make Ranked PVP 4v4-only, or the decision to add F2P - decisions and changes were made, going round and round with players who aren't happy about them doesn't help anything. Edited March 2, 2015 by DarthDymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veronyka Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Congrats on reaching 200 pages! 2000 replies is the next achievement lol. Come on you can do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael_diSanto Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Congrats on reaching 200 pages! 2000 replies is the next achievement lol. Come on you can do it. Look, look, I'm helping! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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