LordArtemis Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 The problem is with the machine. Using a macro (yes against TOS but so is selling credits), dishonest players (think credit sellers) can generate an infinite number of free crafting materials. That's a problem with the machine. The second problem with the machine is that it is a CM item that is not cosmetic. It has a function, and that function replaces a big chunk of crafting. No it is not. The ability to exploit a game mechanic does not make that mechanic a problem...if that was the case many mechanics in the game would have to be removed. Second, it replaces nothing. It demonstrates the bad design of crew missions. So my original point stands. FIX CREW MISSIONS. That is the real issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djiini Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 No it is not. The ability to exploit a game mechanic does not make that mechanic a problem...if that was the case many mechanics in the game would have to be removed. Second, it replaces nothing. It demonstrates the bad design of crew missions. So my original point stands. FIX CREW MISSIONS. That is the real issue. ...I just caught this, are you two having debates in TWO different threads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 So, by playing the machine for 10 minutes (now) and getting 10 purples instead of sending out about 15 companion missions, the slot machine sinks about 20K from the economy instead of the 60K I would have spent on missions, for a net change of +40 back to the economy. The slot machine is currently a credit source, not a sink. Just so you know, the example you give would make it neither a source nor a sink. That example does not create credits, nor does it remove them. The net effect is it SAVES you credits, ones that already exist in the credit pool. Note, that does not mean I agree with your example. Just wanted to point out the error of your logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 ...I just caught this, are you two having debates in TWO different threads? Hey, we can multitask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djiini Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Hey, we can multitask Well then, I finally have an opportunity to use this line. Get a room! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) No it is not. The ability to exploit a game mechanic does not make that mechanic a problem...if that was the case many mechanics in the game would have to be removed. Second, it replaces nothing. It demonstrates the bad design of crew missions. So my original point stands. FIX CREW MISSIONS. That is the real issue. Macroing only amplifies the problem. It doesn't matter if you run 100 tokens, 1000, or 10,000. The drop rate is the drop rate and it still makes the crafting materials free. Because it makes crafting materials free (and faster), it absolutely replaces missions. Why would I run a mission that MIGHT return a few things in 30-45 minutes when I can run a stack of 99 coins through the slot machine and get 9-12 Jawa Junk, with certainty, in 3-5 minutes, plus 3 stacks of stuff to vendor that pays for 60% of that stack of tokens, plus 3-4 CM Certs that I can quickly switch to personnel decorations that makes the whole thing profitable and the Jawa Junk free? Sometimes it takes me 3-5 minutes just to do the "travel dance" to get the missions I want to take! What is "fix crew missions" compared with that? Do you think they're going to make them fast, guaranteed, and free? I could see the developmentally disabled running the missions, but I think they're the vast minority of players. Or hope. Something like that. Edited January 18, 2015 by DarthTHC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 big snip But just in the few minutes I've spent writing this and right-clicking on my slot machine I "earned" 12 purples spending less time and money than I would have running companion missions. With the way things are now, there is no way to say the Jawa Junk is reasonably limited. IMO, the best thing to do would be remove the Jawa Junk from the payout entirely (just increase the free spin odds). There are several variables governing the use of the machine: cost per token, time-per-spin, drop rate, and time between spins. I've seen people suggesting [imo arbitrary] increases in cost per token and time between spins (applying a debuff similar to using crafting nodes), but these changes would also affect people using the machine "as intended" (I don't think the devs intended people to see this as a substitute for running missions). I really don't want to see machine "ruined" for its intended use. nother snip . your drop rate on jawa junk is a lot higher than any I have seen. if they remove the JJ from the slot machine, they need to refund some cartel coins. taking someones real$$ and then nerfing the item will be seen as a bait and switch. thats what people will see. they need to adjust missions..or just leave it alone for a month and see what things shake down too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Point being true on adding\removing credits from the economy it still rendered crew skills for gathering materials obsolete which is the core of the problem here. not obsolete..just another avenue of production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Well then, I finally have an opportunity to use this line. Get a room! lol. I'm not that expensive of a date....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfyde Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 taking someones real$$ and then nerfing the item will be seen as a bait and switch. thats what people will see. That's a good point in it's essence, but there's probably a line in the EULA somewhere that protects them from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfyde Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 lol. I'm not that expensive of a date....... Let me guess; 2000 credits for a go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Macroing only amplifies the problem. It doesn't matter if you run 100 tokens, 1000, or 10,000. The drop rate is the drop rate and it still makes the crafting materials free. It could be argued that, all things considered and under the right fortuitous circumstances you could have a zero net loss. But that is rather narrow criteria. The mats are not always free. But they can be under certain circumstances. So can crew mission mats, again, under the right circumstances. Because it makes crafting materials free (and faster) First contention is fallacious. Second is valid...It most DEFINTELY makes it faster. That much can not be denied. However, I can still beat it with a purchase on the GTN. Nothing is faster than that. it absolutely replaces missions. For you perhaps. Not for me, and I expect not for many others, for a wide range of reasons. Why would I run a mission that MIGHT return a few things in 30-45 minutes when I can run a stack of 99 coins through the slot machine and get 9-12 Jawa Junk, with certainty, in 3-5 minutes, plus 3 stacks of stuff to vendor that pays for 60% of that stack of tokens, plus 3-4 CM Certs that I can quickly switch to personnel decorations that makes the whole thing profitable and the Jawa Junk free? ...because you need free crafting mats? Schematics? Because you need to run around and do something and you cant stand by your slot machine? Perhaps you need to log out? Run dailies? Sometimes it takes me 3-5 minutes just to do the "travel dance" to get the missions I want to take! ....your beginning to get the picture. The problem is NOT the machine...it is crew missions. The fact you HAVE to do that is a ridiculous reality that makes using the crew mission system painful. What is "fix crew missions" compared with that? Do you think they're going to make them fast, guaranteed, and free? Of course not. I thought we agreed, no hyperbole? I think they CAN make them return more resources, remove the failure component and increase the chance to crit and yes...I think they could be competitive. I could see the developmentally disabled running the missions, but I think they're the vast minority of players. Or hope. Something like that. Well, I for one think your being stubborn. You know crew missions suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Let me guess; 2000 credits for a go? 1999, a hearty handshake and a smile..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Macroing only amplifies the problem. It doesn't matter if you run 100 tokens, 1000, or 10,000. The drop rate is the drop rate and it still makes the crafting materials free. Because it makes crafting materials free (and faster), it absolutely replaces missions. Why would I run a mission that MIGHT return a few things in 30-45 minutes when I can run a stack of 99 coins through the slot machine and get 9-12 Jawa Junk, with certainty, in 3-5 minutes, plus 3 stacks of stuff to vendor that pays for 60% of that stack of tokens, plus 3-4 CM Certs that I can quickly switch to personnel decorations that makes the whole thing profitable and the Jawa Junk free? Sometimes it takes me 3-5 minutes just to do the "travel dance" to get the missions I want to take! What is "fix crew missions" compared with that? Do you think they're going to make them fast, guaranteed, and free? I could see the developmentally disabled running the missions, but I think they're the vast minority of players. Or hope. Something like that. you have a way to get the tokens for free? I have to buy them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 That's a good point in it's essence, but there's probably a line in the EULA somewhere that protects them from it. champions online has been losing accounts in large numbers since they did the same thing. a line in the EULA does not unpiss people off. it just protects from some lawsuits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSchuyler Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 This whole thing is comical. The grief! The prognostications of doom! Crafting is dead, killed by Bioware. Oh, the horror of it all! But there's only one thing that has happened here: Crafters who intended to make a killing on Grade 11 crafting materials by selling mats at outrageously high prices and making themselves credit-rich in the process have just had the bottom knocked out of their monopoly. Toooooo friggin' bad! I have NO SYMPATHY for you whatsoever. The fact is that when 3.0 hit you guys ran out there as fast as you could to rack up your stacks and make sure those items were so rare, and correspondingly high in price, that normal people couldn't even play the game past 55. They were shut out because they couldn't afford to buy normal mods for their gear. And yeah, yeah, I know they got an "entry level" set. So why bother trying? Just level to 55 and call it a day. Retire to Tatooine and sit on the "beach." And stop your sub in the process. (You think THAT might be behind BW's choice to mix it up a little? Ya think? Meanwhile, back in normal leveling, phonds and nextors cost the same as they always did. There is plenty of desh, plenty of artifacts, and plenty of various underworld metals. You can still craft your own mods, implants, adrenals, medpacs, augments, and pretty much anything else up past 50. If you have an array of crafters with your toons, there's no reason you can't support each other all the way up. All you need is a little family (legacy) cooperation. Didn't the same thing happen with orange gear? What happened to armormech and armstech, those crafting skills that made armor? Orange gear ruined their schtick because you could now buy orange gear one time an "just mod it up!" It WRECKED THE ARMOR MARKET!!! Oh, dear. Same thing this time. It's just that you poor schmucks who have been unabashedly and shamefully ripping the rest of us off will no longer be able to say "WTS [midlithe crystal] 100K Cheaper than GTN! pst me!" without being laughed off chat. You are as bad as cheapcredits.com and I am HAPPY you have been put in your place! Thanks, Bioware! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfyde Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) champions online has been losing accounts in large numbers since they did the same thing. a line in the EULA does not unpiss people off. it just protects from some lawsuits. Isn't that a very rare exception then? Gamers as a group tend to be some of the biggest sheep around, we'll cry bloody murder a while if something is changed, but then go back to obendiently clicking our login buttons. (edit: For a live actual example of how steadfast the average gamer is, go to the thread about the tiny QoL Improved Mounting perk BW has decided to monetize, and notice the tone of the reactions; "I don't agree with it, but I'm getting it anyway. ) Edited January 18, 2015 by wolfyde Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) you have a way to get the tokens for free? I have to buy them. Follow the bouncing ball: 1) Buy a stack of 99 tokens. You just spent 49,500 credits. 2) Run them through the slot machine until you're out of tokens. Should take you 3-5 minutes, less if you can get to 2 or 3 machines without moving. 3) Sell the reputation items you got at the closest vendor. If your returns are roughly the average of mine, this gets you 33,115 credits. Now you've effectively spent 16,385 on the tokens. 4) Take the 3 Cartel Market Certificates you got to the Personnel Vendor. Buy a Female Twi'lek Dancer, a Bartender, and a Waitress. Put them on GTN for the going rate, which on my server is 45-65k but, hey, maybe it's 10k on yours. let's say you post them each for 10k. 5) Wait a short while. Collect your GTN sale mail, which will be 28,200. You've just profited 11,815 on the transaction. 6) Decide what to do with your 11-12 FREE Jawa Junks. Edited January 18, 2015 by DarthTHC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) It could be argued that, all things considered and under the right fortuitous circumstances you could have a zero net loss. But that is rather narrow criteria. The mats are not always free. But they can be under certain circumstances. So can crew mission mats, again, under the right circumstances. First contention is fallacious. Second is valid...It most DEFINTELY makes it faster. That much can not be denied. They are always free from the slot machine. See my reply to ivan for how to make them free. Always. However, I can still beat it with a purchase on the GTN. Nothing is faster than that. You can't make them free from GTN. They're always free from slots. Well, at least if you can change 1 CM Cert for about 5k on GTN they are. Which should really not be an issue since I've been exchanging at 45-65k all day. For you perhaps. Not for me, and I expect not for many others, for a wide range of reasons. ...because you need free crafting mats? Schematics? Because you need to run around and do something and you cant stand by your slot machine? Perhaps you need to log out? Run dailies? Free crafting mats come from the slots. Running around, playing the game, etc... It can take longer to do the travel dance to get the right missions than it does to get 3-4 times a CRIT mission return from the slots. Time is on the side of the slots, too. Even if it's right before you log out. You can spend 3-5 doing the travel dance to maybe get the items you want tomorrow morning when you log in, or you can spend 3-5 running a stack of tokens through the slot machine and be certain you'll have 9-12 Jawa Junk immediately. ....your beginning to get the picture. The problem is NOT the machine...it is crew missions. The fact you HAVE to do that is a ridiculous reality that makes using the crew mission system painful. Of course not. I thought we agreed, no hyperbole? I think they CAN make them return more resources, remove the failure component and increase the chance to crit and yes...I think they could be competitive. Well, I for one think your being stubborn. You know crew missions suck. Yes, the crew missions are sub-optimal. But this slot machine is so good they would literally have to make the missions free, certain, and nearly instant to compete with it. I don't see that happening. Edited January 18, 2015 by DarthTHC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightSaberAddiCt Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Look the truth is, that the price for mats has been out of hand. Maybe the crew missions do need tweaked, but I know that now I can craft a nice mod, or implant for my characters without losing half my credits on gouged mat prices. And if that takes a little money out of the pockets of the people that have been inflating the prices, honestly, that is music to my ears. There is alot of people like me, that do not want to sit and play the GTN all day, we just want to be able to craft gear for our toons, and not have to pay 100k for a single mat. I would say that I feel bad for the games ultra rich, that some of their market has been cut down to size, but really...I dont. You have had it good for a long time, your sitting on loads of creds, and now alot of us can actually enjoy our crafting without getting raked over the coals. Honestly, I see that as a win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) Look the truth is, that the price for mats has been out of hand. Maybe the crew missions do need tweaked, but I know that now I can craft a nice mod, or implant for my characters without losing half my credits on gouged mat prices. And if that takes a little money out of the pockets of the people that have been inflating the prices, honestly, that is music to my ears. There is alot of people like me, that do not want to sit and play the GTN all day, we just want to be able to craft gear for our toons, and not have to pay 100k for a single mat. I would say that I feel bad for the games ultra rich, that some of their market has been cut down to size, but really...I dont. You have had it good for a long time, your sitting on loads of creds, and now alot of us can actually enjoy our crafting without getting raked over the coals. Honestly, I see that as a win. Cost of materials was never a problem. Demand was still higher than supply. But supply was catching up, at roughly the same pace it did with 2.0. With the cost of mats from missions, before this slot machine was introduced, a reasonable profit point for some items was (approximately): Augments 40k Augmentation Kits 59k Hilts 45k Relics 80k Earpieces 52k Some could have been lower, especially augmentation kits, if crafters used 0 credits as cost of materials that could be gathered (that is, they traded time for credits running around Rish and Yavin farming). Again, prices were higher than that because supply hadn't caught demand yet. What good would it do to find nothing on GTN because crafters priced stuff as low as they possibly could... and it all got bought? This slot machine makes materials free and instant. However, it still might not solve the supply problem. The reason I say that is that if the prices of crafted goods falls to the point that there simply aren't enough credits to be worth the time / effort / trouble of leveling your skill, learning the schematics, reverse engineering, posting to GTN, organizing inventory, etc., people will just stop crafting. That's why higher prices are sometimes better than bargain basement, Wal-Mart prices. Higher prices, more credits of profit, encourage players to craft stuff. Still, I think the discussion of this topic is probably moot. I don't see BioWare letting this stand. I said this on Friday afternoon before I did the research and math, and I'm even more convinced now that I have 24 hours of research and math behind me. There is no way this thing doesn't get adjusted, and it's not going to be a small adjustment. So pull those levers, boys, while they're still guaranteed wins. It's not going to last forever. Oh, and make sure you keep some of what you get saved for later, once prices come back up. Do this and you'll never need to worry about paying 125k for an augment again. Edited January 18, 2015 by DarthTHC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eartharioch Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 That's not true; the credits you spend on coins are de facto removed from the economy and the game, they don't change hands to another player. What you make on the GTN from the item return is money you gain from other players, money that was already present in the economy. It doesn't generate additional, new money. (apart from the creds you get from vendorselling the rep items, which is always lower than what the coins cost you) Whether it siphons more or less credits from the market than the crew missions is irrelevant to it being a credit sink, it only speaks to it's relative efficiency. Should, after some time and the dying out of the current hype, turn out that the amount of credits removed by the machine is lower than the amount previously removed by the number of crew missions now no longer being run, then there is a balancing problem that needs to be tweaked by raising the cost of coins, etc. But to make that call one needs exact data, and only BW can truly evaluate that. What I said was true, and your reply shows that you understand. I wasn't claiming that *on it's own* it is a credit source -- on its own, it takes away a little more money than it generates (CR 500 per coin - vendor value of Rep items - vendor value of mats converted with jawa stuff). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Fix crew missions. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfyde Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 What I said was true, and your reply shows that you understand. I wasn't claiming that *on it's own* it is a credit source -- on its own, it takes away a little more money than it generates (CR 500 per coin - vendor value of Rep items - vendor value of mats converted with jawa stuff). Ah, then I misinterpreted what you said. I apologise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Follow the bouncing ball: 1) Buy a stack of 99 tokens. You just spent 49,500 credits. 2) Run them through the slot machine until you're out of tokens. Should take you 3-5 minutes, less if you can get to 2 or 3 machines without moving. 3) Sell the reputation items you got at the closest vendor. If your returns are roughly the average of mine, this gets you 33,115 credits. Now you've effectively spent 16,385 on the tokens. 4) Take the 3 Cartel Market Certificates you got to the Personnel Vendor. Buy a Female Twi'lek Dancer, a Bartender, and a Waitress. Put them on GTN for the going rate, which on my server is 45-65k but, hey, maybe it's 10k on yours. let's say you post them each for 10k. 5) Wait a short while. Collect your GTN sale mail, which will be 28,200. You've just profited 11,815 on the transaction. 6) Decide what to do with your 11-12 FREE Jawa Junks. I dont get the same drop rate you seem to. and they are not free. just because you recoup money does not mean free. by that standard crafting missions are free. they are pulling cash out of the economy. they are not free Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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