I did the exploit...

[Horaciozhao]

let me translate your justification for you in a real life term. You went into a store that has a lock that's really easy to break and stole their stuff, and when the police found out and notify you you'll be punished, you said:"it is their fault that they didn't sell things cheaper" or "I paid to them everyday to buy things" or "Why didn't they use a better lock, it's their own fault, I can't believe they didn't realize their lock is easy to break". Are you correct on all those arguments, actually yes, you are right. Does that justify why you steal things? No it doesn't. Does the police care and do they have the need to satisfy your argument before punishing you for stealing? No they don't.

[JattaGin]

Every action in life causes a reaction. Stand for your own actions, guys. Nothing worse than people trying to put the blame for something they did on someone else.

 

(Well yes, there are worse things, but I made a point, therefore I exaggerated.)

 

Cheating is cheating. Exploiting is exploiting.

 

Read "The Ethics of Computer Games" by Miguel Sicart. It's very interesting.

[dbears]

Disappointing read.. here I was thinking the whole "ban me of you can" thing was about this guy having some way to counteract the ban with hacks or some sort of creatively devised plan..

 

Turns out it's just some guy who can't speak English.

 

Unfortunate.

Edited January 14, 2015 by dbears

[Legolose]

I'll bet 10cc and an unused Rishi Idol that they can (and probably will) fulfill your request.

Right lol, as for the Op write what you want, vent what you want, either way your gone so later bub

[lightSaberAddiCt]

I demand you make an effort to write a legible post. You write like an illiterate grade school drop out.

[Frybert]

You hit the nail on the head TUXs. If you actively knew about this exploit and you did it anyway, even after you knew, you should be banned. That is cheating. Like TUXs said. You knew it was a bug but you did it anyway. I wouldn't mind the people that did it be banned.

 

*cough* *ahem* Either my sarcasm detector is broke, or yours is.

[Felspawn]

#entitledgamer much?

[BrianDavion]

im a subscriber and a founder since launch to, my guild didnt feel the need to cheat/exploit for any reason.

So all i read here is 1 lame excuse.

 

A ban deserves you right

 

this. this 100%

[EvenHardNiner]

Anyone else willing to admit they did it?

[Sarfux]

*cough* *ahem* Either my sarcasm detector is broke, or yours is.

 

Well regardless of sarcasm or not, action should be taken and that's exactly what they should do. All jokes aside.

[BuriDogshin]

Anyone else willing to admit they did it?

I would not be shocked to learn that BioWare would prefer that people not publicly admit it.

They already know who did it, and other people knowing would just make things harder for them.

 

For example, if someone who admitted their sin was not sanctioned at all and kept posting to the forums, business as usual, don't you think that would make some people here int he forums angry at BioWare?

 

So please, give BioWare a break, this is hard enough for them already, even if that is partly their own doing.

[Drockter]

I would not be shocked to learn that BioWare would prefer that people not publicly admit it.

 

I know I would prefer not to know... Once Bioware has done what they are going to do... the exploiters have "repaid society" and "done their time", its time to move on.

 

Mistakes were made... own up to them (in Private with Bioware) or not, and lets just let Bioware finish up with whatever actions they choose to take, and lets move on.

[Thoronmir]

I know I would prefer not to know... Once Bioware has done what they are going to do... the exploiters have "repaid society" and "done their time", its time to move on.

 

Mistakes were made... own up to them (in Private with Bioware) or not, and lets just let Bioware finish up with whatever actions they choose to take, and lets move on.

I generally agree. My main reason for not needing to know who exploited is that I really don't care. I care less about how BW punishes them.

 

I made this very astute and salient point in another thread that seems to have been deleted, but (IMO) the closest real-world parallel to the exploit is shoplifting. The usual penalty for shoplifting? Return the items and get banned from the store ... either permanently or for some period of time. No one goes to jail (absent some unique circumstances).

 

I was perma-banned from a Woolworth's back in 1974 for trying to lift a model ship kit. My mistake? Being ten years old and trying to hide the box holding the pieces of the U.S.S. Enterprise aircraft carrier under my coat. Woolworth's didn't even call my folks. They took the model and told me I could never step foot in their store ever again. I get the last laugh, though. Woolworth's is defunct, but I'm still here!

[MeNaCe-NZ]

You misunderstand the purpose of pointing out other ToS infractions. It's to demonstrators that some of the holier-than-thou ban-all-the-rule-breakers advocates are not so holy after all.

 

No I see your point but it's clearly to me seeming to try detract from the issue at hand. I don't think many people are trying to say they are faultless in life ( some have, I didn't really believe them ).

 

The issue at hand is this exploit was used by a bunch of people interested in cheating the game and what, if any, punishment is due to them. Some say perm ban, some ( mostly those who used it ) say nothing at all and they should keep everything they got ( whilst some citing they never exploited, those I find humorous ). I haven't often read "Wow you're such a low down dirty cheat! You are so worse than me @ life!".

 

Most of the heated debate has grown from people like yourself, trying to lessen the infraction from what it is and even in other players case even imply nothing should be done as it was all Bioware's fault. It's when people start trying to publicly defend, justify or deflect the issue that it starts to grate on the players nerves who chose not to exploit ( or never knew about it ).

 

Do I think I'm morally superior to those that cheated? No, I don't personally know any of you. I would say I've got stronger willpower to choose not to do so as the temptation was there but I kind of foresaw Bioware not letting something of this scale slide and I also truly felt this was a blatant exploit, not like pulling boss out of the set area to kill him easier but a blatant exploit that was actually have an effect on the game itself in terms of raiding as well as the economy. You can have your OPINION on how major or minor this is or positive or negative as can I and everyone else but please let's not try and talk as though it's somehow fact.

 

In the U.S. there are so many laws now that scholars estimate the average person breaks a dozen every day without realizing it. As a result, an advocate of hang-all-the-law-breakers is advocating a noose around their own necks.

 

Nope I think we're saying give these cheaters their just punishment and likewise if I cheat sometime give me mine too. Punishing now will certainly detract me personally from doing so, doing nothing and then next time I'll probably go out of my way to join them just remembering nothing happened this time ( call it spite if you like, it probably is ).

 

Look at the exploit-related rule: you must not "Exploit any bug in the Service to gain unfair advantage in the game and/or communicate the existence of any such bug (either directly or through the public posting) to any other user of the Service." Well, what's a bug? Ultimate comms from L55 ops? Being able to bypass a boss (e.g. Garj) ? Finding a place you can stand where some of the attacks from the boss won't hit you? And what's an unfair advantage? There's some wiggle room there, which not only allows BW to decide that an exploit isn't an actionable exploit, but also allows players to (at their own peril) believe that too.

 

That's a given but I would like to give my fellow human's the benefit of the doubt when it comes to common sense and general intelligence. They did manage to install a game, create an account and level up to level 60 after all right? I would like to think we all can tell the difference between a game giving us ultimate comms for doing something EXACTLY as we normally do it ( Flashpoints ) and running into an instance, picking up loot and getting an achievement for something we know we never killed or deserved.

 

If you are somehow implying that all your examples are just as bad or on the same scale as this exploit sorry but you are just clutching at straws and is starting to lose respect for a lot of the intelligence you've shown in other discussions/debates on other topics. There is a point where arguing for the sake of arguing can start to make one look rather foolish and possibly we all need to know when to quit ( the bit where we clutch at straws ).

 

The anti-communication portion is a little clearer, but as a result it's got a loophole you can drive a truck through. It's reasonable to think BW may come down hard on anyone that violated the anti-communication portion, for a number of reasons I won't go into here.

 

Another issue altogether and one they seem to pick and choose when and how they enforce it. But to be fair to Bioware they don't announce actions they take etc. generally so we can't truly gauge what sort of enforcement they do or do not take as we have no numbers to work off.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Well, if that's the case, they didn't impose any sanctions for the Nephra exploit, which ran for months, so aren't they already in that situation?

 

I can see where they had a problem with that one personally. Whilst not condoning it and it being something I didn't choose to take advantage of ( I honestly thought it made everyone look kinda stupid and obvious exploiters with their 186 rating implants was it? yet sub 180 everything else ) I can see how Bioware may have had a tough time in deciding whether or not to punish.

 

Basically people could argue they did kill the boss and nowhere did it say you couldn't stand in a certain point and avoid damage etc. - there is no clear explanation of the mechanics per se.

 

With this example I guess you could try argue nowhere does it say you have to kill a boss to get the loot for killing the boss and the achievement etc. but it really just doesn't seem quite the same to me?

 

Again I personally thought those that exploited Nefra should have been punished and gear removed also but I doubt there was any way to tell via logs the difference in a clear fashion. Based on what Eric has said this time however it would almost imply I was right in that there is some sort of flag or something that is not being set if someone actually killed the boss but got loot etc. that or they are looking at people who haven't or didn't kill the first 4 bosses but that could cause issues because that happens often with conquest ops and running your guild through a final boss kill skipping the rest of the op ( which I think should be stopped but whatever ).

[MeNaCe-NZ]

This is the most heinous act imaginable to them...their addiction to this game is so great that they're unable to remain rational about what this was...a bug. They liken this to real life crime for God's sake...it's freaking nuts if you ask me.

 

Stop trying to act like everyone who wants to see the cheaters get what they deserve are somehow maniacal fanatics who want them strung up, you're coming across as rather childish and trying to turn the innocent party into the guilty party.

 

For a guy who has previous claimed he never used the exploit you sure do act to the contrary. I guess we'll know if/when Bioware do take action.

[Soul_of_Flames]

I can't see anyone getting perma-banned for this.

 

The worst I can see happening is gear that guilty players equipped from the first time they did the exploit being reverted, crafting schematics learned being removed, items acquired being taken away, achievements being reset or possibly locked. And maybe a temporary suspension.

 

However, while I have no pitty for the guilty players, I can also say that Bioware themselves have a full part in this blame as well.

 

This exploit was around in the private beta. They let it go live. They let it sit on live while they went on vacation. All the time not saying a word about it. Granted that it's kind of common sense to know what an exploit is and what isn't... the fact that it was around in beta and they allowed it into live without saying a word can kind of give the... 'unintuitive' players the wrong idea that it is intentional.

 

Now, thanks to that stupidity, even players who didn't participate in the exploit are effected. Crafting schematics have spread faster than they should have. Prices have dropped faster than people can acquire them. Gear curves have accelerated faster than actually possible.

 

I'd like to see BW punished as much as the guilty players. If not, then some sort of compensation for players who did not cheat.

[TUXs]

Stop trying to act like everyone who wants to see the cheaters get what they deserve are somehow maniacal fanatics who want them strung up, you're coming across as rather childish and trying to turn the innocent party into the guilty party.

 

For a guy who has previous claimed he never used the exploit you sure do act to the contrary. I guess we'll know if/when Bioware do take action.

Not everyone, I never suggested it was everyone. But after completing both Ops weekly since release, I can tell you without hesitation that the gear people are in is inconsequential. The mechanics are what you need to beat in these Ops, not gear limits. 198's or 186's...we beat it the 1st week in 180/186 gear...no player, even with BiS 198's, is going to go in and do the same until they can beat the actual mechanics.

 

Players suggesting that anyone who did this be banned and removed from the game, are overreacting...and equating this to real life crimes is lunacy. It's a minor hitch to gear progression...nothing more. We've had it happen numerous times in the past with this game and I'm sure it'll happen again. I just think players are so thirsty for blood that they're ignoring just how easily 192/198 gear was to acquire until yesterday's patch...via OLD Ops. Am I jealous of those with 198 gear? You bet your *** I am, I just have my OH as my 198's from Ult comms...but at least I know what I'm doing (mostly)...

 

Bioware will do whatever they do, I too am anxious to see what happens...but I enjoy this game and I'd be stupid to think banning a bunch of players who skipped some content for one freaking loot piece is best for the game...in fact, I think it would be terrible for it.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

This exploit was around in the private beta. They let it go live.

 

Curiously do you have any proof to this? Not that I know one way or another but I was reading one of the threads on this where someone who admittedly shouldn't have been talking about it said it was all here say and this pug wasn't in PTS that they knew about and couldn't find anything or anyone to support it.

 

What I did read was in the initial release was the lootless boss that came to live and thus in a fix for that this exploit was born I believe.

 

I could be wrong, it is all under NDA so I guess we'll never know but it's almost starting to sound like people have invented this "it was in beta" to make it sound more acceptable.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Not everyone, I never suggested it was everyone. But after completing both Ops weekly since release, I can tell you without hesitation that the gear people are in is inconsequential. The mechanics are what you need to beat in these Ops, not gear limits. 198's or 186's...we beat it the 1st week in 180/186 gear...no player, even with BiS 198's, is going to go in and do the same until they can beat the actual mechanics.

 

In the first week? Who is we? I thought only the groups who had sold the lockout in the first place were the ones that legitimately cleared it? Many have since using the gear they got from the exploit and whilst I agree mechanics are the major factor to say gear doesn't matter is silly. Gear will make everything that little bit easier such as enrage and healing/tank challenges etc.

 

Players suggesting that anyone who did this be banned and removed from the game, are overreacting...and equating this to real life crimes is lunacy.

 

Why? Says who? You? Who died and made you god of what is over reacting or not? I think a ban for an exploit is perfectly rational repsonse personally. Should I say you are over reacting by saying they are over reacting?

 

Temp ban mind, perm ban for anyone other than those who discovered/spread/sold ( might be your guild based on the above? ) the lockout. Temp is fair for anyone who knowingly used this exploit repeatedly. A 1 time offender could be deemed to not know what they were doing.

 

The real crime thing goes on both sides. Some have tried to do it defending the cheating some had done it to show the cheating for what it is. No one is however calling anyone a criminal, they are analogies, get used to them.

 

It's a minor hitch to gear progression...nothing more. We've had it happen numerous times in the past with this game and I'm sure it'll happen again. I just think players are so thirsty for blood that they're ignoring just how easily 192/198 gear was to acquire until yesterday's patch...via OLD Ops.

 

That's the point though ... if someone wanted comm gear ( which people have gone as far in their defense of their actions as to say the comm gear is so crap no wonder people are cheating, some of the lowest of the low excuses imo ) they could have done the old ops or the weeklies etc. and got the comms gear. You call it "easy" but that's not necessarily true either for those of us who don't live and breathe SWToR because we can't play at work ( but we can forum post! ) or due to family etc. when we get home. So whilst it may have been easy for you ( and isn't any more ) that doesn't mean everyone is in that boat. People were getting full 198 mods/enhancements in an hour providing they had enough level 60 toons ... this is planned, calculated cheating and pretty much deserves a ban regardless of how little you feel it affected the community.

[Aienir]

In the first week? Who is we? I thought only the groups who had sold the lockout in the first place were the ones that legitimately cleared it? Many have since using the gear they got from the exploit and whilst I agree mechanics are the major factor to say gear doesn't matter is silly. Gear will make everything that little bit easier such as enrage and healing/tank challenges etc.

 

 

 

Why? Says who? You? Who died and made you god of what is over reacting or not? I think a ban for an exploit is perfectly rational repsonse personally. Should I say you are over reacting by saying they are over reacting?

 

Temp ban mind, perm ban for anyone other than those who discovered/spread/sold ( might be your guild based on the above? ) the lockout. Temp is fair for anyone who knowingly used this exploit repeatedly. A 1 time offender could be deemed to not know what they were doing.

 

The real crime thing goes on both sides. Some have tried to do it defending the cheating some had done it to show the cheating for what it is. No one is however calling anyone a criminal, they are analogies, get used to them.

 

 

 

That's the point though ... if someone wanted comm gear ( which people have gone as far in their defense of their actions as to say the comm gear is so crap no wonder people are cheating, some of the lowest of the low excuses imo ) they could have done the old ops or the weeklies etc. and got the comms gear. You call it "easy" but that's not necessarily true either for those of us who don't live and breathe SWToR because we can't play at work ( but we can forum post! ) or due to family etc. when we get home. So whilst it may have been easy for you ( and isn't any more ) that doesn't mean everyone is in that boat. People were getting full 198 mods/enhancements in an hour providing they had enough level 60 toons ... this is planned, calculated cheating and pretty much deserves a ban regardless of how little you feel it affected the community.

 

You realize he's talking about Story Mode? Something quite a few guilds have cleared.... and Hard Mode has 9 guilds who have cleared it as well. Not very far fetched that he might be part of one. Just because one has cleared the instances =/= sold or participated in the exploit.

[TUXs]

In the first week? Who is we? I thought only the groups who had sold the lockout in the first place were the ones that legitimately cleared it? Many have since using the gear they got from the exploit and whilst I agree mechanics are the major factor to say gear doesn't matter is silly. Gear will make everything that little bit easier such as enrage and healing/tank challenges etc.

"We" is my guild and the great players that are kind enough to carry my sorry butt through Ops. We've only done story mode...not hard (they're working on that though).

 

Why? Says who? You? Who died and made you god of what is over reacting or not? I think a ban for an exploit is perfectly rational repsonse personally. Should I say you are over reacting by saying they are over reacting?

Of course "says ME"...that's MY QUOTE...YOU quoted ME...and you're asking who feels that way? Those are MY words. Who do you think I speak for?! I don't believe I'm a deity of anything...but I appreciate that you believe I exhibit Godlike qualities...I take that as a very humbling compliment.

 

The real crime thing goes on both sides. Some have tried to do it defending the cheating some had done it to show the cheating for what it is. No one is however calling anyone a criminal, they are analogies, get used to them.

That's fine. And I will continue to go on explaining how this is absolutely nothing like a real life crime.

 

That's the point though ... if someone wanted comm gear ( which people have gone as far in their defense of their actions as to say the comm gear is so crap no wonder people are cheating, some of the lowest of the low excuses imo ) they could have done the old ops or the weeklies etc. and got the comms gear. You call it "easy" but that's not necessarily true either for those of us who don't live and breathe SWToR because we can't play at work ( but we can forum post! ) or due to family etc. when we get home. So whilst it may have been easy for you ( and isn't any more ) that doesn't mean everyone is in that boat. People were getting full 198 mods/enhancements in an hour providing they had enough level 60 toons ... this is planned, calculated cheating and pretty much deserves a ban regardless of how little you feel it affected the community.

I wish I had the time to play that you assume I do...but I don't. Last week, the only thing that prevented you from getting a plethora of Ult comms was you. There were plenty available from the old Ops and even on my PvP server, an Ops group was easy to find. If you couldn't complete the Ops for those comms last week, not even 198's will help you. I don't believe it'll ever get easier than it was.

[XiamaraSimi]

Exploitgate has surpassed Dadani page 8ing her(him)self levels...

 

But the drama is just a trainwreck worthy.

 

Although i dont think anything will ever surpass EQ2 Ceciliantas Erpgate for sheer levels of angst and hilarity..

Edited January 14, 2015 by XiamaraSimi

[MeNaCe-NZ]

You realize he's talking about Story Mode? Something quite a few guilds have cleared.... and Hard Mode has 9 guilds who have cleared it as well. Not very far fetched that he might be part of one. Just because one has cleared the instances =/= sold or participated in the exploit.

 

I would assume hard mode clears/gear if anyone is making a debate about the reward being of minor consequence.

 

If it's "so what they got the same gear I got doing it legit" then it's a flawed argument because many people got decked out in 198's using the HM exploit ( mods/enhances for all slots and armor for the chest ) which is, at least in my case, the contentious point. The 192's aren't as much of a big deal except with the whole RE issue and the effects on the market ( be it you view negative or positive - everyone has their own view there is no factual way it is here ).

 

As for the 9 guild who have cleared it now it's also been debated that many only cleared it because many had the gear they shouldn't have had in the first place ( exploited ). In fact is there even a world tracking thread for this any more or was it given up? Didn't see it quickly look in the first couple of pages in Flashpoint/Op section.

 

I know Harbinger has started a new tracking thread but even admitted it would be impossible to track if people had illegal gear or not due to the large amount of screenies etc. needed so just ignored that point really.

 

Funnier still because the guild accused of starting this whole thing wanted to write off the whole concept of progression tracking because of the illegal gear even though they may have been the ones to sell it in the first place. Oh the irony.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Of course "says ME"...that's MY QUOTE...YOU quoted ME...and you're asking who feels that way? Those are MY words. Who do you think I speak for?! I don't believe I'm a deity of anything...but I appreciate that you believe I exhibit Godlike qualities...I take that as a very humbling compliment.

 

Sorry but often the way you talk you seem to be pushing across your point of view as thought it were fact as opposed to opinion. I guess we're all guilty of it at times though I do try make a point of inserting words like "I believe" "I think" "imo" just to stress that it's not necessarily a majority view and purely my own point of view.

 

I wish I had the time to play that you assume I do...but I don't. Last week, the only thing that prevented you from getting a plethora of Ult comms was you. There were plenty available from the old Ops and even on my PvP server, an Ops group was easy to find. If you couldn't complete the Ops for those comms last week, not even 198's will help you. I don't believe it'll ever get easier than it was.

 

But you seem to skip the point again. That's still a lot of time and effort spent on gaining gear that is inferior to what people were gaining illegally. Yes you got your 192's legally and maybe you don't care that others got 192/198 illegally but that doesn't detract from the fact that others do care and do want to see bans handed out.

 

If you want to single out certain players for calling for blanket perm bans as being blood thirsty etc. then by all means do so but don't lump everyone who wants to see cheaters punished in the same basket.

 

As I've said numerous times, at first I just wanted to see the illegal gears/gains removed from those that got them and didn't care for punishment. Now with some of the stupid defences and justifications that have gone on for over 300 pages I think many of those people do deserve a ban on top. That's just me though, not really blood thirst per se imo.