MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Don't pretend that "supply and demand" is setting the price when someone is buying up items that are priced "too low" on some subjective scale and artificially constraining supply -- at that point, supply and demand isn't setting the price, the people manipulating the market are. Yeah just ignore the rest of my post and pretend like that's what happens. Back up your point of view and statement with something solid in terms of in game examples where the market is being completely manipulated ( beyond the rare and scarce items I mentioned ) or as I've said before ... troll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) Ummm... actually, that is supply and demand- capitalism at it's finest. It's what the US of A was built on. Now, it might not be particularly nice, nor meet some artificial standards of fairness. But it is taking advantage of the laws of supply and demand. It's taking advantage of supply and demand, but as soon as someone starts manipulating the market that way, the actual price is no longer being set by supply and demand, it's being set by the manipulator. The sort of people who gobble up the lowest-priced units and then resell them at the top of the price curve are also, you'll note, quite often the most vehemently opposed to anything that might increase the supply, as this would outstrip their ability to do so. Edited January 30, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hachibushu Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 It's taking advantage of supply and demand, but as soon as someone starts manipulating the market that way, the actual price is no longer being set by supply and demand, it's being set by the manipulator. The sort of people who gobble up the lowest-priced units and then resell them at the top of the price curve are also, you'll note, quite often the most vehemently opposed to anything that might increase the supply, as this would outstrip their ability to do so. No... they're reducing the supply to increase the demand. I'm not saying that either way is right or wrong. I really don't have an opinion one way or another. But to say that this is not supply and demand economics is disingenuous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test_Eagle Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Can't believe there are still some crying against this and trying to argue the cheaters aren't to blame lol. Its done. No point arguing anymore. BW doesn't agree with you. Cheaters will be punished. So build a bridge and get over it. Stop the crying, you are looking more and more pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebvp Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 My guild actually appreciated this action, even though it means we will have to put off a night of ops progression. Right after it was discovered, it was made very clear by our guild leadership that exploiting was not acceptable behavior and we weren't to engage in it. While it puts off progression by a day, at least now we know who did it. One player, who has 22 characters and has played since launch, got a 3 day suspension. Everyone else got 1. Pretty minimal, I think, all things considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnewton Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) If you look high overhead, you may notice the point flying over you at about 70000 feet... Attitudes like the one you display in your post are why so many of us decided we'd rather see nothing done than see Bioware heed the cries for blood. If you and your ilk had just let Bioware deal with it quietly instead of spamming the forum endlessly with demands for "action" and calling anyone who dared to not agree with you or even just question the severity of your demands everything from "exploiters" to "stupid" to "lazy" to whatever, calling for permanent bans, stripping of all gear, etc, and comparing the digital equivalent to taking an extra cookie out of an Endless Infinite Cookie Jar to things like real-life bank robbery, murder, rape, and so on... maybe no one would have said "screw this, I hope Bioware does nothing just to spite these jerks." Stupid comment is as random as it is stupid. I'm not "missing" the point, I don't care about your point, because I disagree with your point. This needed to be as public as it was, because otherwise people will simply exploit the next bug. It is very important that the players who did not exploit the bug see that the exploiters were punished, otherwise the next time an issue like this arises, the exploit will be much more widely used. I was referring to the people who claimed Bioware would do nothing, not the people who wished Bioware would do nothing. You should work for a news station. You have nothing to comment on in my post, so you choose to misinterpret it so that you have something to talk about. Funny, but immature. Edited January 30, 2015 by idnewton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 No... they're reducing the supply to increase the demand. I'm not saying that either way is right or wrong. I really don't have an opinion one way or another. But to say that this is not supply and demand economics is disingenuous. Someone claimed that supply and demand sets the prices. All I'm pointing out is that once someone starts deliberately manipulating supply and/or demand, then they are setting the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 so you choose to misinterpret it so that you have something to talk about. If everyone else keeps "misinterpreting" what you post, perhaps the problem isn't everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnewton Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) If everyone else keeps "misinterpreting" what you post, perhaps the problem isn't everyone else. You're the only one who did. In fact, very few people in this thread agree with anything you say. But I can agree on one point of yours. The problem isn't everyone else. Just you. PS: Once again, my comment was directed towards you, yet you chose to interpret it to mean I was talking to everyone. Only then did you think you could get away with using the age-old canned internet response "its not everyone its you". Thank you for proving my point in the same post you tried to deny it in. Do you even realize how obvious you are? Because I don't think you do. Edited January 30, 2015 by idnewton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Someone claimed that supply and demand sets the prices. All I'm pointing out is that once someone starts deliberately manipulating supply and/or demand, then they are setting the price. Again can we have some serious examples of this occurring in this game? By serious I mean not like me and my dathomir rancor I decide to list at 15 million or what not because I've got the only one on the GTN. I'm talking about materials you might use for crafting etc. since that's generally the issue at hand with the "wah wah these materials are too expensive and it's all the gougers fault even though I don't understand the definition of the concept" that some people have the opinion of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hachibushu Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Someone claimed that supply and demand sets the prices. All I'm pointing out is that once someone starts deliberately manipulating supply and/or demand, then they are setting the price. It is *still* supply and demand. And it happens every day. What do you think the purpose of OPEC is? They control the supply of oil, which cascades through several industries. However, they are also ruled by the demand for oil. If that demand dries up, then no matter how low they price it, they lose money. Same thing here. People can choose not to buy at the set price, which will then force them to take a loss or adjust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 In fact, very few people in this thread agree with anything you say. Argumentum_ad_populum, -10 points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Again can we have some serious examples of this occurring in this game? By serious I mean not like me and my dathomir rancor I decide to list at 15 million or what not because I've got the only one on the GTN. I'm talking about materials you might use for crafting etc. since that's generally the issue at hand with the "wah wah these materials are too expensive and it's all the gougers fault even though I don't understand the definition of the concept" that some people have the opinion of. So the multiple people in these threads that openly state "I buy up mats that I think are too cheap and repost them at higher prices" don't count as examples? OK. Nevermind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) It is *still* supply and demand. And it happens every day. What do you think the purpose of OPEC is? They control the supply of oil, which cascades through several industries. However, they are also ruled by the demand for oil. If that demand dries up, then no matter how low they price it, they lose money. Same thing here. People can choose not to buy at the set price, which will then force them to take a loss or adjust. AGAIN, the comment was that supply and demand were SETTING THE PRICE. Once someone starts manipulating either side, then it's not supply and demand setting the price, it's the person doing the manipulating. Just because it's still supply and demand in action doesn't mean that the price is being set by the natural cycle of supply and demand. Two separate questions. OPEC's past behavior is a clear example of artificial manipulation of the supply relative to current demand being used to SET the price point that the most powerful member states think gives them the best deal and/or serves their political needs. The diamond industry has the same sort of thing -- the price of diamonds would be much lower if supply were not artificially constrained by a few big players. Of course, this is somewhat silly as a discussion, because unlike real life, the supply scarcity of ANY item in an MMO is ENTIRELY contrived by the developers, and the demand of ALL goods is entirely based on something like that of pure "luxury" goods. There is in theory an infinite supply of everything, as it's all just data, and no one actually needs anything. Add to this a currency that has no actual value beyond that contrived environment, cannot be exchanged for outside currency, and which is held by a handful of players in such massive amounts that all prices are somewhat inflated in comparison to the actual effort needed to get a certain amount of currency. The entire thing is orders of magnitude more contrived, perceptual, and illusory than any actual real-world economy. Edited January 30, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnewton Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Argumentum_ad_populum, -10 points. *Comments on random sentence not even related to the primary point* GG. I'll take that as an apology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) *Comments on random sentence not even related to the primary point* GG. I'll take that as an apology. You've taken everything else exactly as you wanted to, why stop now? You're just lashing out because someone isn't taking your ridiculous rage over something entirely inconsequential seriously. The fallacy was there in your post, and was really the only thing of note at this point. Edited January 30, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) So the multiple people in these threads that openly state "I buy up mats that I think are too cheap and repost them at higher prices" don't count as examples? OK. Nevermind. No if you learn to read and comprehend and stop picking and choosing the parts you reply to to suit your own non-sensical arguments you will see that is buying up mats that are below market price and re-listing them back at market price. That is in no way, shape or form "controlling the market". If EVERY gatherer decided to list their mats at 10K instead of say the current 50K the new market value would quickly drop to 10K, buying up the mats and re-listing at 50K would do nothing to change this as you cannot buy them up fast enough. If a few people feel like listing their items well below market value then yes they can expect them to be relisted at a higher price back in line with market value. Thus still supply and demand perseveres. Also since when did what someone say in a thread make it true or are you picking and choosing if this is the case now? Back up your point of view with solid facts or **** already. Edited January 30, 2015 by MeNaCe-NZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) No if you learn to read and comprehend and stop picking and choosing the parts you reply to to suit your own non-sensical arguments you will see that is buying up mats that are below market price and re-listing them back at market price. That is in no way, shape or form "controlling the market". If EVERY gatherer decided to list their mats at 10K instead of say the current 50K the new market value would quickly drop to 10K, buying up the mats and re-listing at 50K would do nothing to change this as you cannot buy them up fast enough. If a few people feel like listing their items well below market value then yes they can expect them to be relisted at a higher price back in line with market value. Thus still supply and demand perseveres. Also since when did what someone say in a thread make it true or are you picking and choosing if this is the case now? Back up your point of view with solid facts or **** already. If even one person lists their stuff at a "lowball" price, and even one other person buys it up in an attempt to keep the price higher, then the phenomenon in question has happened -- someone is trying to establish a range of prices higher than would otherwise exist in order to increase their own GTN-peen. And it's not just one person doing it, plenty of people openly and proudly say they do it as a matter of routine, every single time the subject of GTN pricing comes up. You putting a bunch of extra conditions on to avoid admitting that it happens doesn't make me a "troll", any more than disagreeing with you or focusing on the certain points means I'm "cherry picking" arguments, or not taking your opinion as fact means that I need "better reading comprehension". Edited January 30, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) If even one person lists their stuff at a "lowball" price, and even one other person buys it up in an attempt to keep the price higher, then the phenomenon in question has happened -- someone is trying to establish a range of prices higher than would otherwise exist in order to increase their own GTN-peen. I've seen this happen. Several times, in fact. But it only seems to last a day (or perhaps two), before the price drops back down. The majority of the time, the prices are set by the buyers -- particularly on mats that come from crew missions (as opposed to rare mats that come from operations) because practically anyone can run those missions at any time. It's also important to note that early on, there is a greater demand for these mats. The same thing happened when 2.0 dropped. Beryllius used to be a hot-ticket item. A few months later and it was infinitely more affordable. Not because the drop rates had increased, but because there were fewer buyers (having already geared up). This will happen here. SoR is still pretty new. Give it another month and the prices will be noticeably less. As soon as the next tier of gear is added the prices will drop again. The way to fight a price fixer is to wait them out. For every person that wants to control the market there are 10 others that just want to sell their mats. The fixers never seem to be able to keep the prices high for very long. Edited January 30, 2015 by Khevar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) I've seen this happen. Several times, in fact. But it only seems to last a day (or perhaps two), before the price drops back down. The majority of the time, the prices are set by the buyers -- particularly on mats that come from crew missions (as opposed to rare mats that come from operations) because practically anyone can run those missions at any time. It's also important to note that early on, there is a greater demand for these mats. The same thing happened when 2.0 dropped. Beryllius used to be a hot-ticket item. A few months later and it was infinitely more affordable. Not because the drop rates had increased, but because there were fewer buyers (having already geared up). This will happen here. SoR is still pretty new. Give it another month and the prices will be noticeably less. As soon as the next tier of gear is added the prices will drop again. The way to fight a price fixer is to wait them out. For every person that wants to control the market there are 10 others that just want to sell their mats. The fixers never seem to be able to keep the prices high for very long. While it wasn't the focus of the... discussion, someone who always undercuts is, IMO, also trying to manipulate the market by driving prices down and/or making sure that his stuff sells no matter what. See "dumping". I very specifically target the bracket I do to avoid being either sort of "GTN player" while having a decent chance of selling my stuff at a decent price that neither gouges nor lowballs. I am trying to not be a jerk to anyone involved. Edited January 30, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrr_hypernova Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Supply and demand dictates the actual supply controls the demand in real life company's have been fined for price fixing and manipulating the stock to control the market just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Supply and demand dictates the actual supply controls the demand in real life company's have been fined for price fixing and manipulating the stock to control the market just saying. What does that have to do with a computer game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hachibushu Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 What does that have to do with a computer game? This. Fining someone for doing what we're talking about in real life is to combat the effects of it. It's not that it's not a phenomena. Therefore, it doesn't really apply at all, as there is no regulatory body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXcaesar Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 If you look high overhead, you may notice the point flying over you at about 70000 feet... Attitudes like the one you display in your post are why so many of us decided we'd rather see nothing done than see Bioware heed the cries for blood. If you and your ilk had just let Bioware deal with it quietly instead of spamming the forum endlessly with demands for "action" and calling anyone who dared to not agree with you or even just question the severity of your demands everything from "exploiters" to "stupid" to "lazy" to whatever, calling for permanent bans, stripping of all gear, etc, and comparing the digital equivalent to taking an extra cookie out of an Endless Infinite Cookie Jar to things like real-life bank robbery, murder, rape, and so on... maybe no one would have said "screw this, I hope Bioware does nothing just to spite these jerks." the arrogance and entitlement of post like these are what iv come to expect from the MMO world in large "not all but most" . The fact that the game makers have aloud this .I can do what i wont mentality because i payed my $15. says a lot about them as well cheating is cheating and braking the rules is braking the rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) the arrogance and entitlement of post like these are what iv come to expect from the MMO world in large "not all but most" . The fact that the game makers have aloud this .I can do what i wont mentality because i payed my $15. says a lot about them as well cheating is cheating and braking the rules is braking the rules So would you say that you're "entitled" to see the "cheaters" face "discipline"? We won't even get into you lashing out in barely-intelligible form at things that weren't even present in the text you quoted. Are you so enraged that you saw someone express a little skepticism towards the draconian demands and couldn't be bothered to actually read it before spewing accusations in such angered haste that you forgot where your shift and return keys were? Edited January 31, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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