Ravagers Exploit Action Update

[Djiini]

the first amendment called...it suggesting you move to any number of countries in africa or middle east if you would prefer a culture that tells you what you can or cannot say.

 

...Are you actually saying our constitution dictates it being okay to feel that way? There's a line between 'this isn't okay to say' and 'you should go to jail for saying this'. Just because they have a right to say it doesn't absolve them from being intolerant and idiotic.

 

Also:

 

> America

> The Internet

 

For all you know the person you were responding to might not even be American.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Djiini

[nicosx]

Shamelessly stealing this comment from dulfys site:

 

If BW didnt want us to loot and pillage why did they make us pirates?

 

© Banga Drum

[Mrs_Sin]

the first amendment called...it suggesting you move to any number of countries in africa or middle east if you would prefer a culture that tells you what you can or cannot say.

 

The first amendment called....it suggested you learn more about your constitution before you make yourself look ridiculous...oh wait. The first amendment doesn't not mean that you can say whatever you please whenever you please without Consequences . If just means that the GOVERNMENT can not stop you from saying said things.

 

The past few days reading the thread have been amazing! We got Theft, violence, religion, rape, racism and a sessions on laws and ethics. Now we just need someone to bring up incest for the win! The only way I could get more entertainment for this whole thing would be if I print it out and use it as wrapping paper for my cannabis...oh wait...

[TUXs]

Shamelessly stealing this comment from dulfys site:

 

If BW didnt want us to loot and pillage why did they make us pirates?

 

© Banga Drum

 

Oh, that's brilliant

[branmakmuffin]

The only way I could get more entertainment for this whole thing would be if I print it out and use it as wrapping paper for my cannabis...oh wait...

We're going to assume you live in Colorado or Washington state (if you're American).

[BuriDogshin]

It really is a shame that BW doesn't crack down harder on the things that at least I consider to be far worse offenses.

BTW, your signature may violate the ToS, Knorlac:

Do not post in all capital letters, use excessive punctuation, etc. to draw attention to your posts.

It really is a shame that BW doesn't crack down harder on people who do that.

[Mrs_Sin]

We're going to assume you live in Colorado or Washington state (if you're American).

 

You can also assume I live in a state that allows medicinal use. Assumptions are like....

[RiVaN_]

If we tell people they cannot speak or that their opinion doesn't matter how can we expect them to listen when we share our thoughts? How do you expect them to try to understand your point of view when you refuse to even allow them to voice theirs?

[BuriDogshin]

lol you want to ban people for typing words on the internet..

If those words constitute continous violations of the ToS we all signed, yes.

As I noted before, your all-caps signature violates the ToS. Continuously.

 

B-bye?

[EzraFett]

why in the world would that matter? defective product. just because you are an mmo doesnt make it go away. if the cc refunds based on defective product ea has no choice...that is unless they want to not accept credit cards.

 

First of all you would never get your money back, period. Secondly, it matters that it is an MMO because if they were rules against, all MMOs would then be susceptible to that legal precedent. Which would pretty much equal ever MMO shutting down until some legal loophole or new term of service could be found. It is fun and all to think about someone on the phone with their CC company telling lies, then getting busted for said lies, but don't believe the hype. Boohahaha.

 

Also, some people want no punishment for 1 time cheating, some for 2 times. Both of these want to keep their ill gotten gains. It ALL needs to come out of the game, all of it. If not, SWTOR is setting a precedent that you can go in and exploit once, or twice, but you better stop then..... really, they are super serious. So yeah, if you cheated 1 or 2 x don't post that you shouldn't get punished. Take your lumps and move on. It is not going to be anything serious. Oh and when you get your little slap on the wrist, be thankful I am not passing out punishments.

[Alssaran]

You know what actually upsets me the most about this issue? About all of the discussion, about all the people involved?

 

It's not the exploit in itself. Not even the people who used the exploit. It is the sheer amount of people who believe, going as far as to demand, the moral high ground in this. Who actually think that they can claim that banning everyone, no matter how much they used the "exploit", is the best way to go.

 

It annoys me, maybe even pisses me off, how many people claim to be the instance of judgement in this series of events, disregarding the player behind the screen. There have been some examples in this post, given by people who actually admitted that they were caught up in this exploiting mess. I was "fortunate" enough to know that there was something wrong with the Ravager. Because of that, I was able to deny any part in this before I was pulled into this. I was able to decline any offer made for a "quick way towards gear." or "a free purple crafting material".

 

What also really annoys me is the constant flock of people who demand that, no matter how ridiculous it sounds, they are actually rewarded for not participating in this exploit. Heck, you don't do the right thing because you want a reward for it. I certainly didn't say "no" to everyone who wanted me to participate because I thought I would get some CC. I did it because I, being completely honest, was too lazy to do it.

 

This has become a witch hunt all across the forum and reddit, with people claiming the high ground in terms of moral and character. It's time people calm down again and stop pointing fingers at people for something as this. My gaming experience was in no way altered by the people who participated in this exploit, nor was it made worse by them.

 

Could this mess have been avoided? Yes. Do I think it was a bit unreasonable to leave the exploit within the game for this extended period of time? Certainly. But I think that it's time we forget about this whole incident, let Bioware decide what is best to do, and stop complaining in 10 different threads about this. The exploit is out, Bioware knows who did it. I don't get why people 'still' have to shout for bans over this. Yes, make an example of the worst abusers of this. But don't ban everyone who did it once or twice. Don't roll back all their credits, don't take away all their gear. It shows how much some members of this community would abuse power, if they were given some.

 

It's time we calm down and move on. This witch hunt isn't productive or entertaining, it's simply annoying.

[ufarax]

This is the result of laziness. Someone at Bioware knew of this exploit, and chose not to fix it. That same individual would have acted promptly, if this exploit involved the cartel market. And now Bioware is suffering the effects of its own indolence. No matter what they do, they will lose money. And the community will suffer, regardless of whatever action is taken. :D:D:D:D

[Knorlac]

Well... thing is... that whole Freedom of Speech and Expression runs both ways... you can't protect it for one, and deny it for another.

 

While I do find these types of comments/conversations deplorable... I do believe they have as much right to speak as anyone else... I choose not to listen.

 

Now, if you are being harassed... then by all means /report, that is against the TOS.

 

If you simply disagree with their viewpoint.... the best thing to do is /ignore. The feature exists for that reason.

 

To clarify, I wasn't talking about people calmly formulating their viewpoint like: I don't like X people, because in my experience, they are all rude etc. I'm talking about people saying things like: It's a shame that jews weren't all gassed during WWII or all homosexuals should be lined up against the wall and shot. (All things I saw in chat)

 

Freedom of speech doesn't absolve you from any consequences at least in my country.(It's not America, so I don't know about the first amendment tbh).

 

For example if someone throws insults at me that violate my personal honor, I can theoretically sue said person and if I win the case, he will likely be fined.

 

If someone is openly calling for violence against any ethnic or social group, especially minorities, he can be tried for incitement of the people, and theoretically be punished with a sentence of 3 months-5 years depending on severity.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Knorlac

[Pagy]

First of all you would never get your money back, period. Secondly, it matters that it is an MMO because if they were rules against, all MMOs would then be susceptible to that legal precedent. Which would pretty much equal ever MMO shutting down until some legal loophole or new term of service could be found. It is fun and all to think about someone on the phone with their CC company telling lies, then getting busted for said lies, but don't believe the hype. Boohahaha.

again, i take it you havent contested a payment on your cc either? I know people that have done it with mmos, including bw. they contest it, they get the credit, the game publisher bans the account.

 

unless youre some sort of persistent fraud hound that contests charges all the time, this really isnt a big deal. the cc company doesnt care about the vendor. if you've ever managed a business you'd realize this. it happens all the time.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Pagy

[Shwarzchild]

People need to put this stuff in perspective. I heard a story from a fellow mmo player friend of mine who told me about how his account in WoW was hacked a while back. That's a big deal. Let's save the ban hammer talk for the really big deal stuff. Exploits? Please. In the scale of things, these things are simply small details. The path that makes the most sense is for the exploit to be closed off (which it has), and the producing team learn from it for future times, and develop a modified and updated plan of action for both expansion releases, and post exploit reports. Everyone here was raised on using cheat codes on Nintendo and the like. Give me a break you holier than thou people. We've been conditioned to look for loop holes, and cheats, and exploits, from jump. Suspend the exploiters for a day or something, or suspend the really bad abusers with a longer sentence. But banning? Over an exploit? Seems like a bit too radical a use of such a finite punishment to me. Let's save that level of punishment for the truly murderous scum, and not a lowly exploiter.

[Foambreaker]

again, i take it you havent contested a payment on your cc either? I know people that have done it with mmos, including bw. they contest it, they get the credit, the game publisher bans the account.

 

unless your some sort of persistent fraud hound that contests charges all the time, this really isnt a big deal. the cc company doesnt care about the vendor. if you've ever managed a business you'd realize this. it happens all the time.

 

This is a lie, I had to contest a charge and won, all that happened was my sub would have ended if I had not added a new card.

[Max_Killjoy]

unless your some sort of persistent fraud hound that contests charges all the time, this really isnt a big deal. the cc company doesnt care about the vendor. if you've ever managed a business you'd realize this. it happens all the time.

 

Whatever else is said here, this part is true.

 

As long as you aren't a habitual user of chargebacks, the CC company you use doesn't care about the vendor, their business relationship is with you and they're going to side with you unless the vendor fights back HARD, to the tune of far more cost than the chargeback itself.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[LordKalvarius]

This song fits the extremists of forum. made me laugh

 

 

Edit: Mostly for the ones calling for blood

Edited January 15, 2015 by LordKalvarius

[Max_Killjoy]

You know what actually upsets me the most about this issue? About all of the discussion, about all the people involved?

 

It's not the exploit in itself. Not even the people who used the exploit. It is the sheer amount of people who believe, going as far as to demand, the moral high ground in this. Who actually think that they can claim that banning everyone, no matter how much they used the "exploit", is the best way to go.

 

It annoys me, maybe even pisses me off, how many people claim to be the instance of judgement in this series of events, disregarding the player behind the screen. There have been some examples in this post, given by people who actually admitted that they were caught up in this exploiting mess. I was "fortunate" enough to know that there was something wrong with the Ravager. Because of that, I was able to deny any part in this before I was pulled into this. I was able to decline any offer made for a "quick way towards gear." or "a free purple crafting material".

 

What also really annoys me is the constant flock of people who demand that, no matter how ridiculous it sounds, they are actually rewarded for not participating in this exploit. Heck, you don't do the right thing because you want a reward for it. I certainly didn't say "no" to everyone who wanted me to participate because I thought I would get some CC. I did it because I, being completely honest, was too lazy to do it.

 

This has become a witch hunt all across the forum and reddit, with people claiming the high ground in terms of moral and character. It's time people calm down again and stop pointing fingers at people for something as this. My gaming experience was in no way altered by the people who participated in this exploit, nor was it made worse by them.

 

Could this mess have been avoided? Yes. Do I think it was a bit unreasonable to leave the exploit within the game for this extended period of time? Certainly. But I think that it's time we forget about this whole incident, let Bioware decide what is best to do, and stop complaining in 10 different threads about this. The exploit is out, Bioware knows who did it. I don't get why people 'still' have to shout for bans over this. Yes, make an example of the worst abusers of this. But don't ban everyone who did it once or twice. Don't roll back all their credits, don't take away all their gear. It shows how much some members of this community would abuse power, if they were given some.

 

It's time we calm down and move on. This witch hunt isn't productive or entertaining, it's simply annoying.

 

Holy crap, a rational response.

 

You're An Exploiter, aren't you? /sarcasm

[lightSaberAddiCt]

My only question is do i buy cartel coins to enjoy the new packs or what.. last month i spent 500 hundred on this game alone, Dont hate i got it like that.. and im pretty sure BW needs players like me, so is my account getting banned or not.. Simple question!!!!

 

Guess that depends on if you used the exploit or not, and how many times you did it. Just because you spend alot in CM doesnt give you a pass.

[DarthDymond]

As much as it's borderline masochistic to wade back into this thread, I do feel curious enough to ask:

 

Those of you who are saying that "BW are at fault for coding this bug / leaving it in so long" or that "the people who are calling for lifetime bans on everyone are worse than the people who exploited this" - are you also saying that it would be wrong for BW to sanction the exploiters in some way? (Be it by bans, short-term suspensions, or removing items.)

 

Because I am actually indifferent to how BW chooses to sanction exploiters, whether it's doing nothing, giving a warning, issuing a lifetime ban, or anything in between - that's left to their discretion.

 

I do think BW probably mismanaged how they handled the exploit if they really knew about it as long as people claim. I do think it is disturbing that some people are taking a 'damn you cheaters, you should all be shot' attitude. But I don't think any of those things magically absolve exploiters of their own culpability - and I find that people might be taking this blame-shifting approach to be disquieting in the same way (albeit to a lesser extent) as I find the 'witch hunt' crowd disturbing.

 

If BW chooses to be magnanimous and not sanction some/all of the exploiters, that's their right to do so, but I don't understand the stance some are taking that it would be wrong for BW to issue sanctions. So I'm just wondering: are those drawing attention to the 'pitchfork crowd' and/or BW's own mistakes are simply saying "hey, there are other issues that should be addressed in addition to sanctioning the exploiters" or are you saying "these other issues mean exploiters should be completely off the hook"?

Edited January 15, 2015 by DarthDymond

[Spamfritter]

Guess that depends on if you used the exploit or not, and how many times you did it. Just because you spend alot in CM doesnt give you a pass.

 

That shouldn't entitle anyone to a complete pass but BioWare would be foolish to ban people who are supporting the game financially. People seem to be hung up on the number of times the exploit was used and that's really dependent on how many level 60's people had to do the exploit. If you only had one or two 60's then you obviously couldn't have done it very much. A person with 16 level 60's on the other hand could have gone absolutely nuts.

 

How much they spread the exploit is probably a bigger point of concern than how many times they used it themselves.

[TUXs]

You know what actually upsets me the most about this issue? About all of the discussion, about all the people involved?

 

It's not the exploit in itself. Not even the people who used the exploit. It is the sheer amount of people who believe, going as far as to demand, the moral high ground in this. Who actually think that they can claim that banning everyone, no matter how much they used the "exploit", is the best way to go.

 

It annoys me, maybe even pisses me off, how many people claim to be the instance of judgement in this series of events, disregarding the player behind the screen. There have been some examples in this post, given by people who actually admitted that they were caught up in this exploiting mess. I was "fortunate" enough to know that there was something wrong with the Ravager. Because of that, I was able to deny any part in this before I was pulled into this. I was able to decline any offer made for a "quick way towards gear." or "a free purple crafting material".

 

What also really annoys me is the constant flock of people who demand that, no matter how ridiculous it sounds, they are actually rewarded for not participating in this exploit. Heck, you don't do the right thing because you want a reward for it. I certainly didn't say "no" to everyone who wanted me to participate because I thought I would get some CC. I did it because I, being completely honest, was too lazy to do it.

 

This has become a witch hunt all across the forum and reddit, with people claiming the high ground in terms of moral and character. It's time people calm down again and stop pointing fingers at people for something as this. My gaming experience was in no way altered by the people who participated in this exploit, nor was it made worse by them.

 

Could this mess have been avoided? Yes. Do I think it was a bit unreasonable to leave the exploit within the game for this extended period of time? Certainly. But I think that it's time we forget about this whole incident, let Bioware decide what is best to do, and stop complaining in 10 different threads about this. The exploit is out, Bioware knows who did it. I don't get why people 'still' have to shout for bans over this. Yes, make an example of the worst abusers of this. But don't ban everyone who did it once or twice. Don't roll back all their credits, don't take away all their gear. It shows how much some members of this community would abuse power, if they were given some.

 

It's time we calm down and move on. This witch hunt isn't productive or entertaining, it's simply annoying.

Wow...great post!!!! We need more from you!

[Drockter]

Honestly, DarthDymond... there are those on all sides here..

 

There are many more opinions than "Ban"/"Don't Ban". There are many variations..

 

There are those that believe even a single instance of the exploit should be banned for life.

Others call for a varied action, depending on the degree the player exploited (could be no action)

Others want absolutely no action, but a warning and accounts flagged to be watched in the future

Others want absolutely no action whatsoever

Others believe BW is just blowing smoke and will do nothing

Others blame BW and believe that due to the bug, no hot fix, they are absolved of wrong doing

Others believe that they are a subscriber/buy CC so they should be absolved of wrong doing

Others believe that because they are top end/end game users that provide guides, fansites, or help less privileged players through content they could never do on their own... that they should be absolved of wrong doing

 

Then within each of those groups, you have those threatening either legal action, or to unsub should even a single thing be taken away (as much as 1 credit would make them unsub)... or the ones that wlll unsub if nothing at all is done, or if the action taken is too light.

 

We have the full spectrum of opinion... the ones that draw the most comments are those on either end of the spectrum.

[Alssaran]

So I'm just wondering: are those drawing attention to the 'pitchfork crowd' and/or BW's own mistakes are simply saying "hey, there are other issues that should be addressed in addition to sanctioning the exploiters" or are you saying "these other issues mean exploiters should be completely off the hook"?

 

What I am saying is this: There is a bunch of choices to be made here. Each case, every single one, has to be investigated and dealt with in a case by case fashion. It takes a lot of time and effort, I'm aware of that. But, there are many factors to be considered:

 

1. Did the person in question participate in the exploit more than once?

2. Did the person in question actively work to spread the exploit across the server?

3. Did the person in question actively advertise it on the fleet and sell the lockout?

4. Did the person in question promote the use of this exploit, i.g telling people it was "Alright. Bioware doesn't act on it.".

 

All those questions have to be answered before someone is banned/punished. I'm not saying Bioware shoudn't take action. What I'm saying is that, given the circumstances, it is more than unreasonable to call for one and the same action (ban) against every person. That would be a witch hunt, as was demonstrated here. "Just burn them all, no questions asked. If she is guilty, she will rot in the depths of hell. If she is innocent, she will go to heaven!".

 

I'm trying to say that Bioware has the say in this. Bioware shouldn't listen to people who shout for one and the same punishment for all cases, no matter how extreme. Not only is it injust, it is severely crushing the financial income of this game. I'm not trying to say people who buy CC get a free ticket. But I'd love to see this game survive the year, as does Bioware. Things must be considered.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Alssaran