Ravagers Exploit Action Update

[Max_Killjoy]

I'll save my moral outrage for things that actually involve one person causing some form of harm to another person.

 

I see that others are still in the stage of moral development that leaves them outraged over actions that cause no harm, but are mysteriously "wrong".

 

Cheating involves a victim -- who is the victim here? Who was on the losing end of nefarious actions? Who had gear taken, or lost playing time, or had their own accomplishments taken away? No one, that we've been told about.

 

We're about one step away from the people I've seen on forums for single-players games who rage about "cheaters" in those games, and express moral outrage that someone else might have used a savegame editor or command codes to make their own experience of the game more enjoyable for them.

 

In some games, there are those who look with disdain and contempt even on the practice saving every so often and reloading if something goes wrong, calling it "save-scumming" and asking the publisher/devs to take actions against it.

 

The very notion that there's even such a thing as "cheating" in a single-player game is laughable, and and so is the notion of this "exploit" being "morally outrageous" until someone shows real harm occurring (and no, vague notions about hypothetical raids you couldn't hypothetically get into, or price fluctuations on GTN for items people used to gouge, don't count as real harm).

Edited January 15, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[mad_freeman]

Dear Eric. is that how you fixing game bugs? did run on ravagers and Coratanni bugged in escape pod. she was attacking it and enraged, then after all died she and pearl was doing it. reset didn't helped either. gg keep it up. it realy suck that your dev team can't do they product properly:mad:

[ZETA_SCORPII]

The pitchfork crowd should quit playing video games that contain violence and stick to games like Tetris. It's immoral to kill and if you kill in video games then you must be a killer in real life, right?

[lightSaberAddiCt]

If it is even possible, identifying and then removing all the ill-gotten gains would require substantial effort by the SWTOR team. Plus it risks removing legitimately-acquired items from completely innocent players, especially if not performed very carefully. And it is not something that BW's CS call center employees can do. It will take coding by people with in-depth knowledge of the games internals.

 

So how much should BW be willing to push back the patches for the bugs that make the game unplayable to achieve your goal? And push back the next release of new content as well. Would those push-backs be good for the game, the players, or BioWare? I think not.

 

You're basically asking BioWare to punish itself . In fact, you're asking BioWare to inflict a self-punishment on itself that is far more severe, in its real life impact, than the punishment you want imposed on the exploiters.

 

nice try, but it isnt as much work as you think it is. It is a case of querying a database, or logs, it maybe be a days worth of work. Personally, I think a large number of people wouldnt mind maybe a week delay in content to make sure the game remains exploit free.

[JetSetter]

This is without a doubt my favorite SWTOR thread of all time.

[Pagy]

The pitchfork crowd should quit playing video games that contain violence and stick to games like Tetris. It's immoral to kill and if you kill in video games then you must be a killer in real life, right?

wont someone think of the children!

[Max_Killjoy]

If it is even possible, identifying and then removing all the ill-gotten gains would require substantial effort by the SWTOR team. Plus it risks removing legitimately-acquired items from completely innocent players, especially if not performed very carefully. And it is not something that BW's CS call center employees can do. It will take coding by people with in-depth knowledge of the games internals.

 

So how much should BW be willing to push back the patches for the bugs that make the game unplayable to achieve your goal? And push back the next release of new content as well. Would those push-backs be good for the game, the players, or BioWare? I think not.

 

You're basically asking BioWare to punish itself . In fact, you're asking BioWare to inflict a self-punishment on itself that is far more severe, in its real life impact, than the punishment you want imposed on the exploiters.

 

There are more than a few in the torches and pitchforks crowd who've made it quite clear that they'd be perfectly willing to see people who did nothing wrong punished, so long as "the cheaters get what's coming to them".

 

 

nice try, but it isnt as much work as you think it is. It is a case of querying a database, or logs, it maybe be a days worth of work. Personally, I think a large number of people wouldnt mind maybe a week delay in content to make sure the game remains exploit free.

 

And I think an even larger number of people would rather the game just move on from this nonsense once the fix is in place, and not waste time on pettiness.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[BuriDogshin]

nice try, but it isnt as much work as you think it is. It is a case of querying a database, or logs, it maybe be a days worth of work.

And how did you arrive at that conclusion? Just because you can summarize an action in one sentence, that does not make it easy to do.

 

Do you simplisticly think that the loot is just sitting around in backpacks in its original shells waiting to be clawed back? Or have you considered that people can exchange tokens for gear, move mods via Legacy gear, sell mats, RE items to get schematics, use the exploit mats to make items, and sell those items by private trade and over the GTN? And that the ill-gotten gains and the derived gains thereof that are not bound can be traded, and re-traded, and put in Guild vaults, and exchanged for legit items via private trade or mail?

 

Just tracking the "ill gotten gains" is a nightmare. Removing them is even worse. Say an innocent player buys, in a private trade, a 37 hilt crafted using exploit mats based on a schematic obtained by REing exploit drops. Does that player lose the hilt? Does he get his creds back? What if he did it via a COD email from the crafter - did you catch that in your tracking? What if the innocent player bought the mats and traded them for the exploit-derived hilt? What if the innocent player got the mats as a legit drop and traded them for an exploit-derived hilt? What gets clawed back? And I'm just starting to figure out all the ways the exploit wealth can flow. Buy a Hypercrate from the GTN with exploit-dervided creds and resell it: how do we track and then clawback that? The list goes on and on. You could spend more than a day just deciding, for each situation an innocent player might be in, whether they lose anything or are refunded anything.

 

The game has too many ways to move stuff around. It's not just a days work to figure out how to reliably track exploit-derived gains, if the data is even still around to do it with. And then doing the clawback, a very risky thing to do, will take even more work.

[fushnchips]

Due to the attitude of Bioware and how they have handled this exploit in the eye of the public I won't be logging in or supporting the cartel market till they close this issue forever. This should have never made it to the forums it's spreading worse than the exploit did. only people that should be banned were the ones who got the lockout that were not part of the original team that downed the boss and then decided to spread it worse than ebola.

 

The person who got the lockout that wasn't part of Zorz had the choice to use the cure or spread the virus and infect the entire player base that already had a low morel due to horrible bugs and so on and when people are desperate they make bad decisions and this is a clear case of it.

 

But welcome to 2015 even though it's 16 days in for me

[lightSaberAddiCt]

And I think an even larger number of people would rather the game just move on from this nonsense once the fix is in place, and not waste time on pettiness.

 

Its not petty to enforce proper gameplay, it is the responsibility of the developer to do so. What is petty is people that troll forums, trying to chastise people for wanting the rules enforced to even a minimum extent. You really havent had much to add to the conversation this whole time, other then to climb on your soapbox, and talk crap about everyone else, while all you are doing is pushing your own agenda. But that has been your schtick through a number of topics.

[EzraFett]

If it is even possible, identifying and then removing all the ill-gotten gains would require substantial effort by the SWTOR team. Plus it risks removing legitimately-acquired items from completely innocent players, especially if not performed very carefully. And it is not something that BW's CS call center employees can do. It will take coding by people with in-depth knowledge of the games internals.

 

So how much should BW be willing to push back the patches for the bugs that make the game unplayable to achieve your goal? And push back the next release of new content as well. Would those push-backs be good for the game, the players, or BioWare? I think not.

 

You're basically asking BioWare to punish itself . In fact, you're asking BioWare to inflict a self-punishment on itself that is far more severe, in its real life impact, than the punishment you want imposed on the exploiters.

 

It is probably not nearly as hard as you think. There is probably loads of data for every item in game, along with every time you pick up a credit. If it is really that hard to do then oh well, I am just saying that is what I would like to see happen. If it doesn't I am still going to play, if it does I am still going to play. I do not think my posts here have any impact on BW's choice to punish or not and what that entails. I am not delusional. I am not going to say "I have dozens of people that play because I play, and I spend hundreds of $ every month on cartel coins, If BW doesn't do what I want I am leaving and taking my dozens of friends with me"

 

So no, I am not asking BW to punish itself. I have written datalogging software, albeit much smaller scale, but it is too easy to collect more data than you will probably ever need. In fact it is a good idea if you have the memory to do it. Then if you ever run into a problem, you write a little code, set parameters and waalaa.... data. Then you can even run another script on that data to see if it grabbed instances it shouldn't have. But hey I haven't written any MMOs so I do not know. I assume the people who code the game are very familiar with the variables they would have to set. This is their job. Many people here make it sound like someone has to physically go through thousands of pages line by line in order to make sure they don't accidentally grab the wrong persons gear or credits. I really don't think so. But hey, I could be wrong, and I can accept that.

 

Collecting data will not push back any patches and damage the game. If the game can't handle a guy coding for an hour or two then I don't know what to say. Do you think that the software team is working all out every minute of every day? Just to keep the schedule they have? Do you know ANY desk job where everyone is working non stop all out every minute of every day? It was probably all done before the servers even came online Tuesday.

[brandonsorr]

http://www.fbcommentpictures.com/media/images/2014/10/09/tmpQzHoRV.jpg

[Alssaran]

Its not petty to enforce proper gameplay, it is the responsibility of the developer to do so. What is petty is people that troll forums, trying to chastise people for wanting the rules enforced to even a minimum extent. You really havent had much to add to the conversation this whole time, other then to climb on your soapbox, and talk crap about everyone else, while all you are doing is pushing your own agenda. But that has been your schtick through a number of topics.

 

Now here's the thing. It does not matter in any way that you want the rules enforced. Bioware makes the rules here. If Bioware says that "a slap on the wrist" is enforcing them enough, it is. If Bioware says that nothing should be done, it is as good a solution as any. You don't make the rules here, you don't have any claim to enforce them. In the end, you can play the game and enjoy it. You can say your opinion, and Bioware will act on it if it is appropriate.

 

You can want to have the rules enforced. But if Bioware decides that a slap on the wrist is their enforcement of aforementioned rules, then they are enforced. You are a paying guest here. When you walk into a cinema and encounter a disturbing element, you can't force them to change it. It's within their own discretion how and when they deal with it. If you're not contend with the way it was handled, you can move away. Bioware will make the decision how the rules are enforced. But I can see a thousand people shouting that it won't be enough, implying that they have more to say on the matter than Bioware.

[TUXs]

This is why I feel dragging this out even more was a mistake on BW's part. It's only serving to make the forums unpleasant and sow discord amongst the community.

EA/Bioware should sell quilts with all the sowing they do...

[Drockter]

only people that should be banned were the ones who got the lockout that were not part of the original team that downed the boss and then decided to spread it worse than ebola.

 

Wait.. what? Punish the 2nd level of people, not the first? Sorry, but (to me) that makes no sense... it is the first person (regardless of guild association) that invited anyone else to their lockout. Using your ebola reference... that would be like letting patient 0 run wild around the neighborhood, while only quarantining those they infected?

 

The person who got the lockout that wasn't part of Zorz had the choice to use the cure or spread the virus and infect the entire player base

 

So the members of Zorz didn't have the choice on whether or not to spread it?

 

EDIT FTR: I have no idea, and really dont't care, who Zorz is...

Edited January 15, 2015 by Drockter

[Thoronmir]

EA/Bioware should sell quilts with all the sowing they do...

 

How about: "EA/Bioware do so much sowing, they deserve a federal farm subsidy!"

 

Or: "EA/Bioware do so much sowing, the next in-game vehicle is going to be a Caterpillar Combine."

 

Or: "EA/Bioware spend so much time sowing, they've added "Farmer's Tan" to the list of requirements to work there."

 

[ivanhedgehog]

You either do not understand morality or simply lack any morals whatsoever.

 

The moral high ground is simple: Cheating is wrong. It doesn't matter if it is in a game or real life. And to be honest, I personally feel that "once a cheater, always a cheater". In other words, what you do in a game mirrors what you do in real life.

 

massive snip

.

 

murder is wrong. in real life and in a game...does that make you a monster?

[Khevar]

EA/Bioware should sell quilts with all the sowing they do...

Yissss! I'm glad there's still funny posts on the forum -- there's been too much grumpygrumps of late.

 

P.S. I really miss ikinai's humor. Hope she comes back soon.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Now here's the thing. It does not matter in any way that you want the rules enforced. Bioware makes the rules here. If Bioware says that "a slap on the wrist" is enforcing them enough, it is. If Bioware says that nothing should be done, it is as good a solution as any. You don't make the rules here, you don't have any claim to enforce them. In the end, you can play the game and enjoy it. You can say your opinion, and Bioware will act on it if it is appropriate.

 

You can want to have the rules enforced. But if Bioware decides that a slap on the wrist is their enforcement of aforementioned rules, then they are enforced. You are a paying guest here. When you walk into a cinema and encounter a disturbing element, you can't force them to change it. It's within their own discretion how and when they deal with it. If you're not contend with the way it was handled, you can move away. Bioware will make the decision how the rules are enforced. But I can see a thousand people shouting that it won't be enough, implying that they have more to say on the matter than Bioware.

 

 

Your absolutely right, as i have said previously, BW is going to make the call. Just getting tired of people trying to act as though this was a no harm, nomfoul moment and we should all just live and let live. The fact remains that these people KNOWINGLY exploited, and some to a massive degree. So dont then come on the forum and try to justify it, rationalize it or try to transfer blame. If BW decides to sanction you, or ban you, man up for once and take your punishment.

 

What annoys me more are these trolls trying to say nothing was done wrong, blah blah blah.

[sentientomega]

I wouldn't ban people who used an exploit JUST once, as a general rule, that could easily be interpreted as discovering it, nor if they tell other people of it BUT warn against using it. It's no-one's fault if they stumble across an exploit, or if they warn others not to use it or face the consequences.

 

As for people who used it, and encouraged its use, I'd be at a loss as to what to do and what implication(s) such action would have for the wider community, again, as a general rule, any exploit.

 

Frankly, I'm not even clear on the details of said exploit; I do know it's from an operation called the Ravagers, but since I've pretty much been ops-averse for almost all of my time playing, I know for certain that beyond speaking to the op's quest-giver (I thought it was some Rishi daily quest-giver) and then dumping the quest when I learned it was an op, I've not even gotten close to learning what the fuss is all about.

 

But from the posts concerning damage to the ingame economy, it sounds quite serious indeed.

 

There is an addage: If at all in doubt, don't.

 

Knowing how a particular mechanic works would also help, so that if something doesn't quite happen as it ought, a red flag can be popped; especially where ingame economics and the value of credits is concerned, personally, if I stumbled on an exploit I would send a CS report, and keep quite about it, to avoid putting temptation in anyone's path.

 

I do think the instant it was reported, BW should've greyed out that particular ops, and fixed the issue ASAP and only when they had done so, reactivated it for all to play as was intended.

Edited January 15, 2015 by sentientomega

[TUXs]

 

How about: "EA/Bioware do so much sowing, they deserve a federal farm subsidy!"

 

Or: "EA/Bioware do so much sowing, the next in-game vehicle is going to be a Caterpillar Combine."

 

Or: "EA/Bioware spend so much time sowing, they've added "Farmer's Tan" to the list of requirements to work there."

 

Oh well done lol!!! The last one is the best

[Max_Killjoy]

Your absolutely right, as i have said previously, BW is going to make the call. Just getting tired of people trying to act as though this was a no harm, nomfoul moment and we should all just live and let live. The fact remains that these people KNOWINGLY exploited, and some to a massive degree. So dont then come on the forum and try to justify it, rationalize it or try to transfer blame. If BW decides to sanction you, or ban you, man up for once and take your punishment.

 

What annoys me more are these trolls trying to say nothing was done wrong, blah blah blah.

 

OK -- what harm occurred, especially of the sort to justify the calls for permabans and mass deletion of all "tainted" gear and mats and credits? What harm occurred that would make accidentally banning even one innocent player "worth it"?

 

(Also, on what evidence do you base your accusation that the person you were responding to could be sanctioned, or banned? Or was that just sloppy use of "you" in the general sense?)

Edited January 15, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[ivanhedgehog]

The only group stirring the pot and creating a toxic mess are the posters on the forums, IME.

 

On both sides of the arguments occurring here, I see toxic comments and posts clearly trying to stir up trouble, none of which came from Bioware.

 

We simply have a ton of impatient, aggressive, spoiled gamer geeks that actually think they know better ways to do everything, that think a month is a long time and that their every desire should be fulfilled.

 

In other words, whole lot of people that need to get over themselves.

 

One the one hand, it's entertaining and fascinating to watch, while on the other hand it makes me hesitate to label myself as a gamer.

 

 

bioware could have put this issue to bed 2 weeks ago..or a month and a half to tell the truth. while the issue may not be all on them, the dragged out flame war is.

[Alssaran]

Your absolutely right, as i have said previously, BW is going to make the call. Just getting tired of people trying to act as though this was a no harm, nomfoul moment and we should all just live and let live. The fact remains that these people KNOWINGLY exploited, and some to a massive degree. So dont then come on the forum and try to justify it, rationalize it or try to transfer blame. If BW decides to sanction you, or ban you, man up for once and take your punishment.

 

What annoys me more are these trolls trying to say nothing was done wrong, blah blah blah.

 

Sanction me? Ban me? Well, tough luck. I wasn't involved with spreading the exploit, nor did I participate in the exploit. I'm not trying to avoid punishment here. I don't "rationalize" this because I'm afraid of the blame. Fact of the matter, I didn't do it.

 

What I'm doing isn't damage prevention, it's trying to apply reason to this whole thing. What people aren't saying is that "Nothing was done wrong.", what people are saying is this: "What was done did not negatively affect the playerbase.". If anything, people are rejoicing because purple augmentations, hilts and everything else are cheaper than ever. I've heard people in my guild rejoicing about the lowered price, without participating in the exploit.

 

What's done is done. And now, listen again: "Their actions did not, in any way I can think of, impact my gameplay in a negative manner.". So, why should I shout for any punishment? It doesn't concern me what punishment they receive, if any. What concerns me is the toxic and poisonous attitude of this community, which has become judgemental and condemning.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Alssaran

[ivanhedgehog]

Your absolutely right, as i have said previously, BW is going to make the call. Just getting tired of people trying to act as though this was a no harm, nomfoul moment and we should all just live and let live. The fact remains that these people KNOWINGLY exploited, and some to a massive degree. So dont then come on the forum and try to justify it, rationalize it or try to transfer blame. If BW decides to sanction you, or ban you, man up for once and take your punishment.

 

What annoys me more are these trolls trying to say nothing was done wrong, blah blah blah.

 

let he who is without sin cast the first stone

 

says it all