Heat-Wave Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I don't honestly care, but would just like to point out that the Ultimate comm gear is horrible for most specs/roles when compared to the token drops. Yes, I'm sure it is... That was the case with lvl 55 as well... But for MOST people, the ultimate comm gear is plenty... Just as the basic comm gear is plenty for most purposes... The VAST majority of people do not min/max their gear to Best in Slot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegoUniverseBC Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 No, it wasn't... It was changed back on June 10th, 2014 in Patch 2.8. http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/6102014/game-update-2.8-spoils-war An update before. It doesn't change the fact why they did it. It was only to get people geared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transcendent Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 They aren't. You still had to do the ops to get them. As it is now, getting Ultimate's is going to be about 15% possible compared to what it once was. They pretty much just cut out 90% of all ops with this nerf. All there is for Ultimate's now is ToS and Ravagers.....or NiM DP and DF (which not many will ever do, nor can). That's it. I'm trying to think of content that I can run to actually collect ultimate commendations at any fair rate. Ravagers SM? Nope, not worth it for the end reward. ToS, good luck there. Again equally not worth it for the reward. So.... Guess I won't bother playing endgame then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosevV Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) Still at 55 Lvl that wasn't problem at all to complete EV HM or KP HM (And even NiM), for 12 Ultimate Comms. But now you will get 10 Ultimate for Hard mode TFB (3rd boss can't be done with PUG) S&V (7 boss for 10 comms? That seems like joke), DF HM (Last boss can't be done with PUG, maybe in 8 ppl mode you have some small chance to complete her), DP HM (Same thing). So we have 3 from 4 ops that nowhere nearly EV or KP in means of difficult. Also, doing Hard mode of new Operation just for hit weekly cap?... No funny at all. Edited January 12, 2015 by LosevV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 An update before. It doesn't change the fact why they did it. It was only to get people geared. Um, I was playing back then, it isn't why it was done. They didn't change it 6 months before 3.0 came out, much less even announced, to get people geared. It was done (and it was stated at the time) to get people doing HM 55 FP at ALL. I wasn't doing them prior, it wasn't worth it, neither were my guildies. It was the only way to movidate people to do them, they weren't worth the work. Now we're back to the same boat, HM 60 FP aren't worth doing for elites. Elite gear was only ever used, by me anyway, for companions. I went with 162 basic gear, then moved to 180 ultimate gear as I had the comms. The 168 stuff wasn't worth the trouble. Now we're at 186/192/198... At 186 with basics, I'm fine.. Upgrading to 192 isn't enough of a jump to bother with, so it is ultimates or bust. When 60HM GF moves back to ultimates, I'll do them again. Until then, I won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I'm trying to think of content that I can run to actually collect ultimate commendations at any fair rate. Ravagers SM? Nope, not worth it for the end reward. ToS, good luck there. Again equally not worth it for the reward. So.... Guess I won't bother playing endgame then. Yep, this is exactly what I posted, but the TLDR version, in my other thread about having nothing to do at lvl 60. Or nothing worth doing anyway... Once you're in full 186, which I am on multiple toons, there is nothing else to work for. Elites aren't worth the grind, ultimates are now too hard to get. So... those toons are parked... I have a few more to hit 60 with, if nothing is changed once they are at 60, I'll take a break and go find something else fun for awhile I guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsillah Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Yes, I'm sure it is... That was the case with lvl 55 as well... But for MOST people, the ultimate comm gear is plenty... Just as the basic comm gear is plenty for most purposes... The VAST majority of people do not min/max their gear to Best in Slot. Well the current commendation gear is worse than pre-3.0 Right now the commendation gear has an armoring/hilt/barrel that is as it should be but both the mod and enhancement are crap. Also something else changed. Within each tier the enhancements now have 2 variations instead of 3. The old commendation gear had good mods. That is already a step better than we have now. Enhancements is also very different. We used to have 3 degrees: bad, decent, good. The bad one had the most endurance and the good one the least endurance but the most secondary stats. Tanks only had access to decent and bad. So decent was actually good for tanks as they didn't have the good one. DPS and Heal had all 3 available...but here's the thing. Commendation gear had bad enhancements for tanks but decent ones for DPS and heal. Since 3.0 there are are only two variations: good and bad and all commendation gear has bad enhancements. To sum it up, commendation gear went down two steps for most classes but only one step for tanks...still it both cases it's down. Taking the ultimate comms out of 55 ops and fp's I think is a good thing, however they do expect you to do a lot of work for really crappy gear now. So really doing ops is the only way to go now. Currently there is no other way to get good mods and enhancements for 192 and 198 gear except from unassembled tokens. Crafting is rough because the purple mats needed are quite rare. It's an interesting decision and it has some good sides to it, but I am sure this might create a *****torm tomorrow nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyinSpaghetti Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Simple statements of fact: 1.) This will kill ops and fp runs for the most part. I and my fellow level 60s have been running these ops like mad over the last few weeks. Tons of fun to get through ops that could take 2 hours or more with pugs in around an hour. As a person who knows the mechanics for HM and NiM, I was dragging the great unwashed through these wholesale. I have watched newer players get geared and educated on the runs. I have seen newer 55s get half a dozen gear pieces or more on a single run as the majority of 60s are there for the comms and chuckles only. I have recruited a half dozen runs or more a week and trained dozens on the mechanics. No ultimates = no interest in running. Good luck, have a nice day. Sorry to burst your bubble but most those players probably got through the old SM ops in particular by face rolling on a keyboard. That's the problem especially for level 60's these ops present little risk, so why should they reward the highest tier gear in the game? 2.) The average gamer has no clue how the HM ops/HM 60 FP run. I have tried multiple HM/NiM pug runs with zero success unless the ops lead screens all players for achievements. I don't support elitist gaming at all, we all have to learn sometime, but the vast majority haven't read Dulfy, went with a guild, or are sober enough to function in HM/NiM. Part of that problem is not due dumb players but is to do with the way people were rewarded super high tier gear for doing easier content, I mean we ended up having what we call "comms gear hero's" players far overgeared for the difficulty of content they actually run standing in AoE's and ignoring mechanics not actually learning anything and you try to recruit them to a HM raid and it's like a culture shock. The best way to give out endgame gear is in a progressive manner so players actually learn the fights in the gear they were designed for i.e. doing ops the easiest ops first to get gear so you can step into next tier of ops to get even better gear and to do even harder ops and so forth... not saying "welcome to endgame, here's the highest tier gear available go stand in as many AoE's as you wish". 3.) I'll run Ravagers/ToS with a guild, get my weekly lockout and go home. The guilds I run with can barely assemble an 8 person run of Ravagers or ToS. We have been pugging 1 or 2 slots with success. That is how I learned the runs; Dulfy, YouTube, and running with other guilds. Trying to pug 8 or more slots of uninformed/undergeared folks through, that much pain med is bad for my liver/stomach. Good Luck, have a nice day Ravagers is not a problem in pugs, only bulo 16m which is getting the nerf bat. As for ToS the underlurker might still be a pug stopper after tomorrows patch, but I'm guessing bioware want people to gear up to at least some 192's from ravagers before stepping in ToS. A lot of the people I see stepping into ops atm are not even 186 geared, once most peoples average gear level increases a little I feel the encounter won't be as tight as it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) Yep, this is exactly what I posted, but the TLDR version, in my other thread about having nothing to do at lvl 60. Or nothing worth doing anyway... Once you're in full 186, which I am on multiple toons, there is nothing else to work for. Elites aren't worth the grind, ultimates are now too hard to get. So... those toons are parked... I have a few more to hit 60 with, if nothing is changed once they are at 60, I'll take a break and go find something else fun for awhile I guess... So it's not that you have nothing to do.. it's that the investment is too great for your personal tastes. It sounds like you work only for carrots, and only if they are big carrots and not at all hard to pull out of the ground. They gave you easier then intended access to ultimate comms for a few weeks, then pulled them. It is hard to believe that had they left it as is.. you personally would be entertained or motivated by it for more then a few more weeks. I've been through this same set of complaint oriented talking points many times with guild mates over the years. People who get bored in MMOs, generally have very narrow tastes, OR are generally bored in real life too... in my experience. And it's interesting that I encouraged you to branch out and diversify across more then one MMO.. and your response was.. nope.. don't want to go through the effort. So... what I am seeing here is --> I want easy access to top tier stuff because I don't really want to work hard for it. Edited January 13, 2015 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsillah Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Ravagers is not a problem in pugs, only bulo 16m which is getting the nerf bat. As for ToS the underlurker might still be a pug stopper after tomorrows patch, but I'm guessing bioware want people to gear up to at least some 192's from ravagers before stepping in ToS. A lot of the people I see stepping into ops atm are not even 186 geared, once most peoples average gear level increases a little I feel the encounter won't be as tight as it is now. I think you have been lucky or something. I still run into pugs that can't manage bulo in 8 man and also the 2nd boss in ToS is a total pug killer still, let alone the underlurker. I agree with the gear issue and that's part of it but to be honest I am getting a bit fed up with lazy dps. Everytime you ask in a group which dps will run barrels or click a console or whatever task it's dead silence. They expect tanks to hold aggro, they expect healers to keep them alive when they stand in circles like a bunch of baboons but ask them to do one extra job and it's dead silent. Sorry had to rant on that, nothing to do with your post. But yeh I certainly think bosses like bulo are fine in 8 man as far as difficulty but pugs are still pugs and the level of fail can still surprise me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preston_Violent Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Just add "of what's available for comms" to my reply then, my point still stands. Old outdated content shouldn't give the best "of what's available for comms". I can hardly see how not handing out the best comm gear is going to make a sensible player avoid ops altogether. God forbid they're actually encouraged to do more challenging content instead of earning it all from simple content. We can't have people striving for things, just give it to them for showing up. Old story modes gave useless tokens and ultimates. New story modes give useful tokens and ultimates, but new ops also are too hard to pug in most cases. Just like before 3.0 ppl would still run EV/KP needing nothing there gear-wise but just for the weekly rewards. If somebody agrees to spend their time running easier ops that drop outdated gear tokens, just for comms, it's their choice how they wanna spend theie raiding time. Now those options are gone. Hardcore raiders won't feel any difference while casual raiders' motivation to run ops at all is damaged. But surely you have the right to be glad about the fact that a large number of players who only bother with story modes or are only capable of handling story modes will now have much less things to do in swtor. Is that good? And what makes you think that this will inspire and motivate them to try harder stuff i.e. story modes of the new ops, instead of simply giving up on raiding for now at all? Swtor has been getting less and less casual player-friendly and that's most surprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Well the current commendation gear is worse than pre-3.0 Right now the commendation gear has an armoring/hilt/barrel that is as it should be but both the mod and enhancement are crap. I have not looked at the 198 stuff in great detail yet, since I don't have enough ultimates to worry yet. Are you saying that the 198 gear bought with ultimate comms today is worse at lvl 60 than the 180 gear bought with ultimates is if left in at lvl 60? In other words, if I have a tank that was fully geared in 180 comms gear when 3.0 hit, would I be better off leaving that tank with some of the 180 gear and not replacing it with 198 gear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Old story modes gave useless tokens and ultimates. New story modes give useful tokens and ultimates, but new ops also are too hard to pug in most cases. Just like before 3.0 ppl would still run EV/KP needing nothing there gear-wise but just for the weekly rewards. If somebody agrees to spend their time running easier ops that drop outdated gear tokens, just for comms, it's their choice how they wanna spend theie raiding time. Now those options are gone. Hardcore raiders won't feel any difference while casual raiders' motivation to run ops at all is damaged. But surely you have the right to be glad about the fact that a large number of players who only bother with story modes or are only capable of handling story modes will now have much less things to do in swtor. Is that good? And what makes you think that this will inspire and motivate them to try harder stuff i.e. story modes of the new ops, instead of simply giving up on raiding for now at all? Swtor has been getting less and less casual player-friendly and that's most surprising.[/QUOte] They still give elites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 So it's not that you have nothing to do.. it's that the investment is too great for your personal tastes. It sounds like you work only for carrots, and only if they are big carrots and not at all hard to pull out of the ground. There is ALWAYS something to do in a MMO, but much of it isn't worth the trouble. I finished the macrobionics and seeker droid missions once per faction, I'm not doing it on every toon. Just as an example. And it's interesting that I encouraged you to branch out and diversify across more then one MMO.. and your response was.. nope.. don't want to go through the effort. So... what I am seeing here is --> I want easy access to top tier stuff because I don't really want to work hard for it. Not at all, but I need something in the middle... Frankly, I would never have ended up with several toons in 180 gear pre-3.0 if GF had not started offering 10 ultimate comms for HM 55 FP back in June. I tried a few times doing the 60 HM FP, but they aren't that interesting and the reward means that the only reason to do them is if they are really fun, and they aren't. Pay me 10 ultimate comms for doing one per day and I'll start doing them at least some. That would give me a lvl 60 way to earn some 198 gear. Once I have 2 or 3 pieces of 198, and bought a nicer barrel or hilt off the GTN crafted higher than 186, and I'll be good to go on 60 ops. As it stands now, the progression is to do taticals and HM 60 for elites, then gear up that way and move to ops. That path is too long, I won't do it and I don't think a lot of other people will either. Time will tell. --- Regarding branching out, starting a new game has a learning curve, if I move to another MMO, it would likely be permanent, keeping up with two of them would require more time and energy than I care to give. I'd rather pay Bioware more money to give me another Rishi each month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preston_Violent Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I'd have to disagree here... "most ppl" is a pretty blanket statement. Maybe most of the people you run with... sure, I'll give you that. Its a perspective thing... if you are a raider, you tend to congregate with... other raiders... PvP'er... you hang out with PvP'ers, and so on. I think we all, me included, have tunnel vision when it comes to "most players/people". We can only rely on our circle of cohorts to reach a conclusion... obviously none of us know most people in the game. It is still a change for the worse and I think at this point BW overestimates swtor attractiveness as a way of spending time to treat a huge part of its main player base (pve casuals) like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 They still give elites. Which are largely useless... going from 186 to 192 isn't enough of an improvement to care about... double that when you consider you just have to do it AGAIN to 198. Most of the players that I know and play with don't put elites on anything but companions. I will use them sometimes for new alts leveled up, or I did in the past when I had fewer alts. Today? I just don't care, they might as well not exist quite frankly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsillah Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I have not looked at the 198 stuff in great detail yet, since I don't have enough ultimates to worry yet. Are you saying that the 198 gear bought with ultimate comms today is worse at lvl 60 than the 180 gear bought with ultimates is if left in at lvl 60? In other words, if I have a tank that was fully geared in 180 comms gear when 3.0 hit, would I be better off leaving that tank with some of the 180 gear and not replacing it with 198 gear? No that's not what I am saying. I am saying that the commendation gear before 3.0 was of better quality with regards to endgame then than current commendation gear is now in 3.0 So pre 3.0 you got better gear for ultimate comms for that endgame than you do now for the current endgame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loc_n_lol Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) In other words, if I have a tank that was fully geared in 180 comms gear when 3.0 hit, would I be better off leaving that tank with some of the 180 gear and not replacing it with 198 gear? Definitely not, especially not for a tank (180 comm gear was horribad for tanks, but decent for dps/heals). But arguably, you'd be better off with some crafted 186 gear. Edited January 13, 2015 by Loc_n_lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preston_Violent Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 They still give elites. And I was talking about ultimates and people's choice to gear up in ultimate comms gear, willingly staying away from the benefits of the token gear in the ravagers/tos story modes. That could be achieved before, now hardly anymore. If you're happy about it, gz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preston_Violent Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Which are largely useless... going from 186 to 192 isn't enough of an improvement to care about... double that when you consider you just have to do it AGAIN to 198. Most of the players that I know and play with don't put elites on anything but companions. I will use them sometimes for new alts leveled up, or I did in the past when I had fewer alts. Today? I just don't care, they might as well not exist quite frankly... Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_land Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) So you want to ban 99% of the playerbase lol your comment is laughable. You are hereby renamed Drax Edited January 13, 2015 by g_land Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lpope Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I have not looked at the 198 stuff in great detail yet, since I don't have enough ultimates to worry yet. Are you saying that the 198 gear bought with ultimate comms today is worse at lvl 60 than the 180 gear bought with ultimates is if left in at lvl 60? In other words, if I have a tank that was fully geared in 180 comms gear when 3.0 hit, would I be better off leaving that tank with some of the 180 gear and not replacing it with 198 gear? In 2.X, the comms gear for dps/heals had Unlettered mods which had the most mainstat & power/crit. In 3.0, the comms gear has A mods, more main stat, less secondary, more endurance. For the most part, an Unlettered mod == a Tier + 1 A mod ( 186 Deft == 192A Deft). So in this case, a move from 180 unlettered to a 192A is probably and upgrade especially if your AC can utilize crit because more mainstat == more crit. In 2.X, the enhancements for dps / heals where all the endurance heavy stuff with the exception of the low endurance / high power / alacrity Quick Savant on the warrior pants. Healers loved those pants. For tanks, it's a different story. In 2.X, tanks had access to Bastion / Bulwark (which from a stat budget was shield, end, absorb / defense) from token gear or Vigilant / Steadfast (stats go end, shield, absorb / defense) from comms. So you really only could get the medium mitigation enhancements from drops. Same goes for mods, only the B mods were on the comm gear, while unlettered was on token gear. Now in 3.0, you can get the really high mitigation enhancement (Immunity / Sturdiness). You can also get the high mitigation mods from tokens. But if you go high mitigation for everything, you lose HP. Some of the ops are really spikey, so survivability wise you might want some more HP. From a stat trade perspective, the B mods are the best trade of mitigation stats for HP. So, I would craft myself 186 Sturdiness / Immunity Enhancements and then use the B mods from the comms belts and bracers. If you don't have the old set bonus, I'd probably just buy a full set of comm gear and replace the enhancements with crafted 186 Immunity / Sturdiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Which are largely useless... going from 186 to 192 isn't enough of an improvement to care about... double that when you consider you just have to do it AGAIN to 198. Most of the players that I know and play with don't put elites on anything but companions. I will use them sometimes for new alts leveled up, or I did in the past when I had fewer alts. Today? I just don't care, they might as well not exist quite frankly... Useless in what way, because there exists something better? If Elites are useless then so are Ultimates. They are both an arbitrary amount better than the 186 you get from basic comms. If they introduced Super Ultimate comms which you can only get from HM+ ops which granted 204s would that immediately make Ultimates useless because they're no longer the best? If Elites are highest comms you can get from the content you do then they're not useless, because that's the best gear you can get. It's better than anything below it. If you want better gear then do content which rewards better gear. Don't ask for better gear from easier content just because you're too lazy to do the content which grants it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirorx Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 well it was nice while it lasted TBH though ita all about set bonus drops and not comms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nGAGE Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I think the nerfs went a little too far. Should've exempted S&V/TfB NMs and DF/DP HMs as well. But farming S&V SM for ultimates was getting ridiculous and tedious. Fully agree here! Don't quite get why they didn't simply remove ultimates from SM and perhaps add ultimate to lvl 60 ops bosses, but that would have probably pushed it a bit. Removal from SM was definitely a must though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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