regarding punishment for exploit

[Pagy]

Actually you very clearly did, not only in your posts on the matter but in opposition to mine. The burden of proof actually resides with no one. Everyone is entitled to their view, and anyone can reject that view for any reason they wish.

sure, you're entitled to an unsupported opinion. and when you make a claim, sorry, the burden of proof, or support, is on you. otherwise your opinion, again, is arbitrary.

I would ask if you could provide the same information to "back up" your viewpoint, so to speak. Or perhaps it is....arbitrary?

maybe you can tell me which viewpoint i should "back up" because i dont think i made one. questioning your claim isnt making a claim. critical thinking 101.

My guess is it is not. My assumption would be you base your opinions on personal experience. And that would be entirely acceptable IMO.

i asked you for evidence, i didn't provide an opinion.

[Pagy]

Bottom line, the data LA has shared about the MMO market is reasonable and well supported by it's sources. He is simply being a messenger into discussions. ALSO... there is no reason to suspect or even imply that SWTOR is somehow unique and that MMO market data does not apply.

the bottom line is he linked market research homepages and no actual data.

[Edzew]

Did you miss the word "subset"? I even italicized it in the post you're responding to, so that you couldn't miss it.

 

How is it that you fail to comprehend that this means "not all, only some, this is not a blanket statement"?

 

Is our education system failing our kids that badly, that words like "some", "many", "subset", "certain", "a few", and so on simply fail to register in their brains when reading? Are you so angry that you're only seeing the trigger words in my posts? Is English your second language? Or does the hyper-paced all-in no-middle-ground public "discourse" that we've sunken to condition people to ignore conditionals and limiters and so on?

 

(Notice that all those statements end in question marks -- if none of them are true for you, then you need not take them as statements about you. They are QUESTIONS, not DECLARATIONS.)

 

umm you are still lumping a group of people up together and making accusations. it matters not what word you use it is still lumping a group of people up. maybe you did not understand my post?? you get upset when people make accusations about you but its ok for you to do the same to other people??

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Almost 150 pages of posts in around 5 days. Not that I know the history of these forums but that is quite a big effort heh.

 

Certainly tends to support this issue isn't as minor as some have claimed throughout this thread.

[ptwonline]

Almost 150 pages of posts in around 5 days. Not that I know the history of these forums but that is quite a big effort heh.

 

Certainly tends to support this issue isn't as minor as some have claimed throughout this thread.

 

Or it just means there's a few people more self-righteous and willing to keep arguing about it

[ZiggyTank]

Almost 150 pages of posts in around 5 days. Not that I know the history of these forums but that is quite a big effort heh.

 

Certainly tends to support this issue isn't as minor as some have claimed throughout this thread.

 

I posted a cupcake recipe somewhere in there so no, this is mostly just people reposting what they've already said because this post makes people feel important.

[Drockter]

I posted a cupcake recipe somewhere in there so no, this is mostly just people reposting what they've already said because this post makes people feel important.

 

Have to agree... I don't think anything new has been said in 140 pages. I think its arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. People have their opinions on what should happen... not everyone agrees..

 

I highly doubt anyones opinion has changed from their very first post in the thread... then of course there are the late comers who post something previously posted, and the cycle starts all over.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Drockter

[BuriDogshin]

Have to agree... I don't think anything new has been said in 140 pages.

The report that some people had received "Hi, you have been sanctioned!" emails was something new. Might be true or might be false, but it was new.

 

And speaking of getting bad news:

Mr. Kim: You are fii-urd. Oh.

Korben Dallas: Well, at least I won lunch.

[HiltoftheDragon]

I think the devs got a bet going.............how many pages............

[ivanhedgehog]

Its a very sensible point, and you could be right certainly. In fact I would not be surprised if you are.

 

But I would still contend it is highly likely that casual subscribers spend far more than hardcore subscribers, and I would further speculate by a wide margin considering the general stance that hardcore players tend to reject a market and "pay to win" or "MTs" and usually only pay a sub.

 

is it the hardcore raiders or the casual raiders, or is it the hardcore casuals or the casual casuals?only bw knows. Has there been any peer review on those studies?

[g_land]

I think the devs got a bet going.............how many pages............

 

I am giving ten more pages before the website goes down for maintenance... any takers?

[ivanhedgehog]

I posted a cupcake recipe somewhere in there so no, this is mostly just people reposting what they've already said because this post makes people feel important.

 

thank you for that, im gonna make cupcakes

[LordArtemis]

sure, you're entitled to an unsupported opinion. and when you make a claim, sorry, the burden of proof, or support, is on you. otherwise your opinion, again, is arbitrary.

maybe you can tell me which viewpoint i should "back up" because i dont think i made one. questioning your claim isnt making a claim. critical thinking 101.

i asked you for evidence, i didn't provide an opinion.

 

the bottom line is he linked market research homepages and no actual data.

 

Ok, by your definition, and since you seem to have conveniently forgotten, for your perusal.....

 

and while pointing the finger at bw might be a method of self-serving denial and justification, the fact remains that bw did nothing to stop this exploit when they found out about it and their inaction led to it going viral. i cant blame bw for missing this but i can certainly blame them for doing nothing about it in a prompt manner.

yeah this will be a great way to kill the game

again, i hope you dont mind playing a dead game. you'll be following the exploiters to the game across the street eventually.

no you said remove any hm drop item. in either case, people will quit en masse. game will die. and your righteous indignation can keep you warm as you wait for queues in a game no one plays.

if you think they have tools to perform mass investigations like this youre deluding yourself. bw cant even ban credit spammers within 48 hours nm investigate operations loot issues.

in this case, these people likely bought out the hilts and relisted to set the price higher.

 

but keep trying to burn those witches...lol

...yes...exactly...and?

 

youre jumping to assumptions, like all of the other witch-hunters. they could be resellers, or people that invested a lot in mats, or from guilds that earn the mats, or bought from guilds that did.

their reaction is pretty obvious...they are upset that if the exploiters arent banned, that there was no reason why they should not have exploited too.

it's petty and pathetic. they want people punished because of the righteous indignation payoff they are getting.

if the exploit is allowed to go on for 3 weeks unfixed, i think the best policy is to comment on it, and threaten people with action. its the only way they can deter people from doing it again if they dont fix it.

 

...and that is only back to page 30.

 

Sure seems like quite a few unsubstantiated, uninformed and arbitrary opinions to me.

 

Call me crazy, but I think it is likely you should not be throwing stones. Your posts in this thread alone stand in evidence.

 

I will await the links to substantiate any of these claims or contentions.

 

Critical thinking 101 indeed.

Edited January 12, 2015 by LordArtemis

[XiamaraSimi]

I posted a cupcake recipe somewhere in there so no, this is mostly just people reposting what they've already said because this post makes people feel important.

 

What? I missed cupcakes? Nooooooooooooooooooooo! /Vader

[Max_Killjoy]

I am giving ten more pages before the website goes down for maintenance... any takers?

 

As a coincidence, or as the cause?

[DawnAskham]

I wouldn't, necessarily, say that the LA's posts are unsupported. While the analytics provided may not be specific to SWTOR (only BW has this information, and they prefer to keep it close to the chest), it is reasonable to assume that the industry norms apply.

 

If you have better, more specific data, then please share.

 

Quoting industry sources which state only a small portion of players actively participate in progression end game content is one thing, its quite another to spout off made up numbers claiming F2P casuals spend more on the game than subscribers who are active in group content.

 

The big glaring problem I see with a lot of his posts is drawing the conclusion that very few players participate at all in end game content based on older data points from times and games where the vast majority of end game content was very exclusionary.

 

Look at what SWTOR has done in the past year or so to encourage more group participation.

 

From group finder to rewards systems to bolster to release of content such as tactical FPs, they have done a lot to encourage broader participation in all aspects of content. There are SM operations tuned for average player ability, then a harder difficulty for those wanting a bit more challenge, and an even harder difficulty for the hard core progression crowd.

 

WoW has done much the same and now has four difficulties for every raid, a group finder feature which auto forms groups across servers for the easiest content, another tool which assists players in finding and forming groups across servers with flexible raid size for the middle difficulties, and a very hard difficulty set to a fixed size with no cross server grouping for the hard core crowd.

 

So while the old 'very few ever participate in end game' content data points might still hold true with respect to the most difficult progression type content, I don't see anything which would support the conclusion that the vast majority do not participate in any way in end game content.

 

If that were true, I'd think we'd see less and less development spent on such content rather than what we see, which is more and more development spent on such content.

Edited January 12, 2015 by DawnAskham

[Kirazy]

I honestly question the contention that F2P would pay more than subscribers. I think one of the first things any F2P who is going to spend a lot of money on SWTOR is going to do is subscribe. And then proceed to spend a lot of money in the CM. Which, according to dev statements, is the case, as subscribers are the biggest consumer of the CM.

[Kryand]

What? I missed cupcakes? Nooooooooooooooooooooo! /Vader

 

Yeah, I think the post was deleted too.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Kryand

[Pagy]

Sure seems like quite a few unsubstantiated, uninformed and arbitrary opinions to me.

 

Call me crazy, but I think it is likely you should not be throwing stones. Your posts in this thread alone stand in evidence.

 

I will await the links to substantiate any of these claims or contentions.

 

Critical thinking 101 indeed.

if you cant understand the difference between stating personal opinions and making unsubstantiated claims and conclusions based on false premises, i think i've done about all the replying to you that i can do for one day.

[howieloader]

if you cant understand the difference between stating personal opinions and making unsubstantiated claims and conclusions based on false premises, i think i've done about all the replying to you that i can do for one day.

 

Don't waste your time...

[Andryah]

The big glaring problem I see with a lot of his posts is drawing the conclusion that very few players participate at all in end game content based on older data points from times and games where the vast majority of end game content was very exclusionary.

 

In most MMOs, historically speaking, even at the height of the hardcore raiding urges in the player base..... there is little evidence that more then 5-10% of the player base ever set foot in any kind of progression raiding. There is ample evidence over the years of internet reporting, blogging, comments directly from devs, etc. to support that 5-10% discussion point. You can argue if it is 5 or 10, or maybe a bit less or more.. but that is the end of it.

 

Now.. in the modern era, some MMOs see higher participations in end game raiding... WHEN those raids are throttled back from the really hardcore raid model (which even WoW has abandoned) ... you might see higher numbers to some degree... but.. there is little evidence of it being much more then 10%.

 

Does he have hard/fast data from inside the dev teams? No. Does one need it in order to understand the magnitude, though not the specific %? No. As human beings, most of us.. when willing to be objective, can see a table of data and from that data draw objective conclusions as to the relative magnitude of just about anything.

 

Stop pretending it is rocket science here. It's not.. unless you are looking for exact population data and demographics of play. Which is not the point of the discussion at all, you are simply using it as a faux-shield.

 

There is plenty of data in the public domain over the years in the industry to substantiate that only a small miniority of players actually bother with end game raid progression content. And in fact.. given how many people I know who burned out on raiding over the years, coupled with observing discussions inside gaming forums for years now.. .. it's a feature of MMOs that is actually in decline.

 

And then we have Wildstar.. the poster child of the resurgence of end game hardcore progression raiding. Except.. that game is unable to retain anyone in the game except for a small percentage of old school raiders. Seriously.. every MMO suffers serious post launch attrition now days... but Wildstar proved to not only suffer the usual attrition, it also lacks any real draw to keep fresh players coming into the game precisely because they went the hardcore raider route as their showcase focus. A focus by the way... they are now backpedaling on. My point in commenting about Wildstar is that it is a modern and current "test canary" over the question of MMO players being focused on progression raiding. The canary died.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Andryah

[Andryah]

if you cant understand the difference between stating personal opinions and making unsubstantiated claims and conclusions based on false premises, i think i've done about all the replying to you that i can do for one day.

 

You should debate/discuss the points in question, rather then turning ad hominem on LA.

 

Seriously.. as soon as you turn your words on to the poster.....rather then the topic.... you have lost foundation and are on quicksand.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Andryah

[Pagy]

You should debate/discuss the points in question, rather then turning ad hominem on LA.

 

Seriously.. as soon as you turn your words on to the poster.....rather then the topic.... you have lost foundation and are on quicksand.

please reacquaint yourself with the def'n of "ad hominem fallacies" people sure love throwing that one around.

 

pointing out his lack of understanding or unwillingness to accept the differences between personal opinions and making claims is merely what it is; pointing out a mistake.

 

claiming he's not worth my time is again, merely a way of me stating i'd rather do something else.

[Andryah]

please reacquaint yourself with the def'n of "ad hominem fallacies" people sure love throwing that one around.

 

pointing out his lack of understanding or unwillingness to accept the differences between personal opinions and making claims is merely what it is; pointing out a mistake.

 

claiming he's not worth my time is again, merely a way of me stating i'd rather do something else.

 

More ad hominem. Stop using your opinion about him or the information he has shared as grounds to attack him. Pick apart the talking points, by all means, if you like.. but do so without making it personal.

 

Here's a novel concept.... agree to disagree.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Andryah

[eartharioch]

And then we have Wildstar.. the poster child of the resurgence of end game hardcore progression raiding. Except.. that game is unable to retain anyone in the game except for a small percentage of old school raiders. Seriously.. every MMO suffers serious post launch attrition now days... but Wildstar proved to not only suffer the usual attrition, it also lacks any real draw to keep fresh players coming into the game precisely because they went the hardcore raider route as their showcase focus. A focus by the way... they are now backpedaling on. My point in commenting about Wildstar is that it is a modern and current "test canary" over the question of MMO players being focused on progression raiding. The canary died.

 

You've brought up Wildstar several times now, and you've focused exclusively on it's attempt to attract the hardcore crowd when discussing it's failure. I'll agree that by focusing on that segment, its devs clearly narrowed its market appeal. But I would argue that there are two other factors that weighed against its success significantly enough that attributing its failure solely to the focus on hardcore players is misleading.

 

First, the devs chose to create new IP rather than build off of an existing one. While I personally appreciate new worlds, the (IMO) unfortunate reality is that an appropriately chosen existing IP generates more initial interest. Initial interest directly influences the number of initial subscribers, and thus (regardless of the % lost after launch) the number of "long term" subscribers.

 

Second (and IMO, the most important of the three), the devs chose to go with a "love-it-or-leave-it" visual style that was (for most reviews I read) extremely off putting to the target audience. Namely, the choice to attempt to appeal to the old-school crowd with a graphic style more suited to children's programming than the demographics of the paying customers.

 

Basically, they targeted a niche group (hardcore players) and offered them a world that would visually appeal to a different niche (children's games) with no possible connections to anything that might bridge the gap (such as an existing IP). Not a recipe for success.

 

Edit: FYI, I was initially interested when I heard about it [being targeted to a harder core audience than swtor], but the look and feel made it a complete nonstarter for me. Sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'll never know because I won't eat the filthy ...

Edited January 13, 2015 by eartharioch