regarding punishment for exploit

[LordArtemis]

These types of things always make me make a weird face at the screen... you ask for evidence, then provide anecdotal evidence of your own.

 

Its all conjecture... your opinion, and his opinion. Especially on this topic.

 

Absolutely. In my case I can say, and want to make it clear that my view is completely conjectural. There is no proof that this game IN ANY WAY follows any of the industry norms, so any that are privy to that sort of information (more folks here than you might think) are STILL guessing when it comes to this game, myself included.

 

The only hard information with respect to revenue portions released by Bioware is a statement that subs spend more money on the market than freeps. That much can NOT be disputed.

 

As to the particulars it is anyone's guess.

[Drockter]

Did it not occur to you that some people may have been punished, the term used in the original post claiming that emails on the matter have been received, but not banned? Obviously, any that were banned won't be heard from in-game, or here either I'd think.

 

But the original post you quoted does not contain the word "ban." You illogically leapt from "punished" to "banned" with no evidence that anyone ever claimed to have been banned.

 

You are correct, it did not occur to me that "punishment" =/= "banned" (be that temporary or permanent). We don't know what the action will be.

 

I stand corrected.

[LordArtemis]

Utter nonsense.

 

Shenanigans.

 

I get you hate group content

 

If that is the conclusion you reach you don't get it at all.

 

and seem to think most people never touch it,

 

I think that is a very fair observation. You can certainly disagree if you like, nothing wrong with that.

 

but in my experience, even people who deem themselves 'casual' and who play this game more for the story and Star Wars experience do participate in operations and other group content - albeit in a more casual nature than players focused on hard progression content.

 

Fair enough.

 

On my server, the larger social guilds (not smaller niche progression guilds) tend to be filled with players who subscribe, who buy lots of cartel packs, and participate in all aspects of the game, including operations.

 

Fair enough, but again, I would speculate that most players do not belong to guilds......

 

I've yet to run into a reasonably sized guild that bills itself 'casual' that doesn't at least run SM operations and participate in unranked PVP.

 

Again, fair enough.

 

So please show us some real facts and figures from EA supporting your argument

 

I can no more do that than anyone else can, since it is reasonable to assume that no such information publicly exists.

 

or just drop this nonsense that F2P players who don't participate in Operations spend more money on this game than subscribers who do, or that the 'vast majority' of people who spend money never participate in any Operations or other group content.

 

I don't think I am going to allow you to dictate what I can or can not contend, nor set the qualifying criteria to do so. You are more than welcome to do so for yourself, however.

 

I will continue on as I do, you are free to do the same.

Edited January 12, 2015 by LordArtemis

[Drockter]

are you going to provide data considering swtor or just continue to use irrelevant video game market data? not only is swtor sub-based but also dependant on micro-transactions.

 

furthermore, you're using terms like "casual" and "hardcore" and attempting to correlate time spent in game with their micro-transaction behaviour.

 

you have zero data and zero facts within the swtor context. and you persisting with these arbitrary and unsupported claims time and time again is laughable.

 

I wouldn't, necessarily, say that the LA's posts are unsupported. While the analytics provided may not be specific to SWTOR (only BW has this information, and they prefer to keep it close to the chest), it is reasonable to assume that the industry norms apply.

 

If you have better, more specific data, then please share.

[ZiggyTank]

These types of things always make me make a weird face at the screen... you ask for evidence, then provide anecdotal evidence of your own.

 

Its all conjecture... your opinion, and his opinion. Especially on this topic.

 

I'm not asking for evidence because this whole thing is stupid.

 

I swear half of these posts are people assuming someone said something else and responding to comments that never existed.

[LordArtemis]

are you going to provide data considering swtor or just continue to use irrelevant video game market data? not only is swtor sub-based but also dependant on micro-transactions.

 

I am going to continue to answer questions as they are posed, as to the source of my speculations...which is CLEARLY indicated in my posts.

 

I can not provide data considering SWTOR...no one can to my knowledge as it is not publicly available.

 

Now, you can choose to see the market data as irrelevant, and I would certainly not deride you for doing so. Anyone is free to read the data and draw their own conclusions...which is the reason why I provide it.

 

I am also aware of SWTORs status in the current market, and the current model it uses. There is no need to remind me of the obvious.

 

furthermore, you're using terms like "casual" and "hardcore";

 

Correct....

 

and attempting to correlate time spent in game with their micro-transaction behaviour.

 

Incorrect. There is no such correlation. I am simply stating portions of the community, set by my own casual and hardcore definition and their likely contributions to the bottom line. I have not stated my definitions for both in this thread, so any contention to the contrary is absurd.

 

you have zero data and zero facts within the swtor context.

 

Incorrect. I have one piece of data which is non-conclusive, the same piece that everyone else has. Again, to claim otherwise is simply foolish.

 

and you persisting with these arbitrary and unsupported claims time and time again is laughable.

 

They are not arbitrary, as has already been explained to you, but you can find them entertaining and dismiss them if you wish. For the opinion to be arbitrary I would have to base it on absolutely nothing but my own conclusions, and I have clearly pointed out that my opinion is based on market norms.

 

You can say that is speculative and inconclusive, and that would be entirely correct. But to call the opinion arbitrary is to lack understanding as to the meaning of the word.

 

I do not present them as facts. The obsession you seem to have with finding some way to insinuate that that is the intent is what I find amusing. If the information I present is so inconclusive, and the opinions I post so arbitrary, why are you trying so hard to try and belittle my opinions?

 

It seems to me you are giving my opinion far more credence than it deserves. IT IS ALREADY WEAK AS PRESENTED. Clearly so, as indicated by my post.

 

it can't possibly be any weaker or speculative if I tried....unless I had no market data on which to form an opinion. At least that is something.

 

But that does NOT mean my conclusions should be given any weight whatsoever. They are clearly speculative.

 

Once again, here is the clear and indisputable source for my information.....

 

Speculation

 

And that is that. Your trying too hard.

Edited January 12, 2015 by LordArtemis

[Pagy]

I wouldn't, necessarily, say that the LA's posts are unsupported. While the analytics provided may not be specific to SWTOR (only BW has this information, and they prefer to keep it close to the chest), it is reasonable to assume that the industry norms apply.

yes applying the playing habits of COD, LoL and Candycrush is a great way to make sweeping conclusions on swtor and it's playerbase.

If you have better, more specific data, then please share.

burden of proof isnt on me, i made no unsupported claims. that's not how logic works, friend.

[TUXs]

I can't wait until players start crying tomorrow that all their elite and ultimate comms were converted to more basic comms!!! Serves them right for exploiting the old Ops like that!

[ZiggyTank]

I hope come Tuesday people remove those gigantic sticks up their butts as evidenced by this whole thread.

[LordArtemis]

burden of proof isnt on me, i made no unsupported claims. that's not how logic works, friend.

 

Actually you very clearly did, not only in your posts on the matter but in opposition to mine. The burden of proof actually resides with no one. Everyone is entitled to their view, and anyone can reject that view for any reason they wish.

 

I would ask if you could provide the same information to "back up" your viewpoint, so to speak. Or perhaps it is....arbitrary?

 

My guess is it is not. My assumption would be you base your opinions on personal experience. And that would be entirely acceptable IMO.

Edited January 12, 2015 by LordArtemis

[TravelersWay]

are you going to provide data considering swtor or just continue to use irrelevant video game market data? not only is swtor sub-based but also dependant on micro-transactions.

 

furthermore, you're using terms like "casual" and "hardcore" and attempting to correlate time spent in game with their micro-transaction behaviour.

 

you have zero data and zero facts within the swtor context. and you persisting with these arbitrary and unsupported claims time and time again is laughable.

 

The data is hardly irrelevant.

 

The last few posts LA has made are speculative in regards to the precise numbers in SWTOR, but there is absolutely no reason to believe that SWTOR is the lone MMO out in the wild that does not support the hard facts as presented in multiple studies and reports over the years. There is nothing nonsensical about it. LA's speculations are a darn sight better supported than many other speculations I have seen tossed about these forums for years.

 

Like LA, the main point of contention in much of the data is how one defines casual and hardcore, and as he pointed out, some studies appear to contradict each other when using those terms. Regardless, if one was to throw out the terms themselves and just focus on the data, you will find that the hard facts support what he is saying.

[leihn]

Speculate

 

There you go.

 

I can source you on the general report information that this information is gleaned from over time however.

 

SuperData Research - Digital games market intelligence

 

Newzoo - market behavior and analytics with a focus on esport gaming

 

Nick Yee - Research scientist at Ubisoft

 

NPD group - Market analytics

NPD group - Video game market analysis

 

You are welcome to peruse the various reports and studies yourself and come to your own conclusions. Naturally, we are all guessing when it comes to this game, as Bioware has released very little information on the subject.

 

You have to consider that SWTOR is a game with a sub and micro trans, while proportionally, casuals are more likely to outspend hardcores by overall volume (rather than per customer spend, which is much more likely to go towards whales) it's very unlikely for f2p/preferred to outspend hardcores on both metrics. The reason being is the most bang for your buck in this game is the sub, so by definition, as soon as they begin to want to spend money they should be buying the sub.

[LordArtemis]

The data is hardly irrelevant.

 

The last few posts LA has made are speculative in regards to the precise numbers in SWTOR, but there is absolutely no reason to believe that SWTOR is the lone MMO out in the wild that does not support the hard facts as presented in multiple studies and reports over the years. There is nothing nonsensical about it. LA's speculations are a darn sight better supported than many other speculations I have seen tossed about these forums for years.

 

Like LA, the main point of contention in much of the data is how one defines casual and hardcore, and as he pointed out, some studies appear to contradict each other when using those terms. Regardless, if one was to throw out the terms themselves and just focus on the data, you will find that the hard facts support what he is saying.

 

Well, thank you, but I would disagree on one point if you dont mind.

 

My opinion is no more or less informed than anyone else here, even if their opinion is based on personal experience IMO. Because it can not be denied that we do not have the information for SWTOR, and though one could argue that it is unlikely that SWTOR is different, it is different in one way....

In almost every market analysis F2P players spend the vast majority of money on a game. In this game that is not the case.

 

This is a very important point IMO, and could lend some credence to the argument that SWTOR may NOT fit market norms.

 

Just my slant.

Edited January 12, 2015 by LordArtemis

[ZETA_SCORPII]

The data is hardly irrelevant.

 

The last few posts LA has made are speculative in regards to the precise numbers in SWTOR, but there is absolutely no reason to believe that SWTOR is the lone MMO out in the wild that does not support the hard facts as presented in multiple studies and reports over the years. There is nothing nonsensical about it. LA's speculations are a darn sight better supported than many other speculations I have seen tossed about these forums for years.

 

Like LA, the main point of contention in much of the data is how one defines casual and hardcore, and as he pointed out, some studies appear to contradict each other when using those terms. Regardless, if one was to throw out the terms themselves and just focus on the data, you will find that the hard facts support what he is saying.

 

I don't have any proof, (other than my own experience), but I'm willing to bet that many who play SWTOR do so because it's Star Wars and weren't part of the typical MMO crowd before. How many play SWTOR because of KOTOR? How many people only play SWTOR and no other MMO?

[TUXs]

You have to consider that SWTOR is a game with a sub and micro trans, while proportionally, casuals are more likely to outspend hardcores by overall volume (rather than per customer spend, which is much more likely to go towards whales) it's very unlikely for f2p/preferred to outspend hardcores on both metrics. The reason being is the most bang for your buck in this game is the sub, so by definition, as soon as they begin to want to spend money they should be buying the sub.

Correct. They've even stated this in the past (subs spend more).

[LordArtemis]

You have to consider that SWTOR is a game with a sub and micro trans, while proportionally, casuals are more likely to outspend hardcores by overall volume (rather than per customer spend, which is much more likely to go towards whales) it's very unlikely for f2p/preferred to outspend hardcores on both metrics. The reason being is the most bang for your buck in this game is the sub, so by definition, as soon as they begin to want to spend money they should be buying the sub.

 

Its a very sensible point, and you could be right certainly. In fact I would not be surprised if you are.

 

But I would still contend it is highly likely that casual subscribers spend far more than hardcore subscribers, and I would further speculate by a wide margin considering the general stance that hardcore players tend to reject a market and "pay to win" or "MTs" and usually only pay a sub.

Edited January 12, 2015 by LordArtemis

[Drockter]

yes applying the playing habits of COD, LoL and Candycrush is a great way to make sweeping conclusions on swtor and it's playerbase.

 

Again, its all speculation... but... yes. Business, gaming companies, use industry norms and analytics when planning for new features (if they want a larger marketshare, they use these things to attract new customers (to determine what people want). The sites provided are used by the gaming industry for market research data... not necessarily consumers.

 

Is it always perfect... no... do allowances need to be made for each company/genre/etc... yes.

 

But, they shouldn't be dismissed out of hand since its not on EA/BW letterhead... no

[Andryah]

I wouldn't, necessarily, say that the LA's posts are unsupported. While the analytics provided may not be specific to SWTOR (only BW has this information, and they prefer to keep it close to the chest), it is reasonable to assume that the industry norms apply.

 

If you have better, more specific data, then please share.

 

/Agreed.

 

While I don't always agree with LA.. I have never seen him mis-represent what he is presenting. He's extremely fair when he presents data (and is clear to make distinctions from facts he is sharing from sources, and conjecture on his part).

 

People tend to only read what they want to read and apply lots of confirmation bias when they see a post they don't like.

 

Bottom line, the data LA has shared about the MMO market is reasonable and well supported by it's sources. He is simply being a messenger into discussions. ALSO... there is no reason to suspect or even imply that SWTOR is somehow unique and that MMO market data does not apply.

 

Now.. clearly.. some feathers got ruffled by LA's position that hardcore endgamers =/= majority representation in MMOs (either in terms of population or economic contribution to the game). But I think it should be obvious from the general direction that MMOs have taken to smaller, simpler, more casual raiding... this is where players minds are for the most part. And, we have a recent real market test of this with Wildstar. Wildstar put hard core old style raiding on their product pedestal as why it would be awesome sauce and shift the market back toward raiding. Nope.. did not happen.. and even the hardcore Wildstar players that stuck around will admit that they blew it as far as long term growth and awareness of the game is concerned. Wildstar cannot attract new players... because as soon as new player logs in.. they find nobody to play with and when they query about it in the official forums they are told there is only one server with any decent population.. and it's almost all capped level players... doing endgame. Wildstar did not take a holistic approach to player base.. they went hardcore. Players voted with their subscriptions... it failed.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Andryah

[Frybert]

The hardcore raiding community is made up entirely of kittens, where as the hardcore PvP community is made up of ferrets wearing underpants. This is entirely speculation on my part. Edited January 12, 2015 by Frybert

[leihn]

Its a very sensible point, and you could be right certainly. In fact I would not be surprised if you are.

 

But I would still contend it is highly likely that casual subscribers spend far more than hardcore subscribers, and I would further speculate by a wide margin considering the general stance that hardcore players tend to reject a market and "pay to win" or "MTs" and usually only pay a sub.

 

This is a much harder distinction to make because you have to define clearly what casual and hardcore are.

 

You can easily alter the definitions to make that statement true or false, as well as change that statement based on overall total revenue or per person spend to alter the outcome as well.

 

Opposed to the subs/non subs which is easy to define.

[Andryah]

This is a much harder distinction to make because you have to define clearly what casual and hardcore are.

 

You can easily alter the definitions to make that statement true or false, as well as change that statement based on overall total revenue or per person spend to alter the outcome as well.

 

Opposed to the subs/non subs which is easy to define.

 

Well... for PvE..... hardcore is classically defined by the history of the genre. Ie.. it became the model for MMOs years ago with the Everquest model, followed in kind initially by WoW (for end game). Harken back to 20-40 man raids that took hours, attunements to even access them, yada yada. Wildstar copied this model and they failed to hold players with it after launch.

 

There is nothing wrong with hardcore old school raiding, or raiders. It's just that they tend to have a disproportionate view of their importance to MMOs as a profit contributor.

 

That said... there really is no hardcore PvE game play in this MMO, not by older standards that the old timers cling to. It is in fact a dying feature in the MMO space... precisely because the ROI simply is no longer there.

 

PvP... completely different onion to peel in terms of business model, game mechanics, player sentiments, etc. SWTOR is not a PvP game... even though it has some PvP in it. If it were a PvP game.. then PvP play would dominate both the player base and the game development efforts. Thing is.. there are other MMOs for the PvPers who want their play style to be primary focus. Yes.. I know.. NOT with light sabers and jedi robes... but that is kind of beside the point for most of the avid PvPers.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Andryah

[Rafkin]

There isn't, and has never been, a punishment harsh enough to keep people from using an exploit.

[LordArtemis]

Thank you for your comments Andryah.

 

Now.. clearly.. some feathers got ruffled by LA's position that hardcore endgamers =/= majority representation in MMOs (either in terms of population or economic contribution to the game). But I think it should be obvious from the general direction that MMOs have taken to smaller, simpler, more casual raiding... this is where players minds are for the most part. And, we have a recent real market test of this with Wildstar. Wildstar put hard core old style raiding on their product pedestal as why it would be awesome sauce and shift the market back toward raiding. Nope.. did not happen.. and even the hardcore Wildstar players that stuck around will admit that they blew it as far as long term growth and awareness of the game is concerned.

 

I would like to comment on this point if I may.

 

First, if I did in fact insult anyone with my contentions I offer my apologies. That was not my intention.

 

Second, I want to make it clear that the same studies that make certain conclusions about hardcore gamers also tend to mention how LOYAL those gamers are. Casuals tend to be VERY transient in nature, so even if it is a larger revenue stream it is not a very reliable one.

 

So hardcore gamers should generally be recognized for the fact that they support the game and remain loyal players.

 

Also, there has been a long standing rivalry between casual and hardcore players. This much should be obvious. The definitions of each group has and will change over time, and the lines have become blurred somewhat...but general conclusions can be had from the majority of studies on the matter, previously linked for anyone to peruse.

 

These are MY conclusions. Anyone is free to come to their own.

 

Players are defined by what drives them to play, and what they pursue in a game. The amount of time played no longer applies in the modern market IMO.

 

Casual players tend to be driven by story content, the leveling process, appearance, minigames, alternate gameplay elements and the social aspects of gaming.

 

They like to involve themselves in exploring, crafting, decorating and appearance modification. Casuals tend to make up the vast majority of most MMO playerbases, but tend to be more transient in nature.

 

Casuals tend to desire QoL improvements and welcome things like a market to a game.

 

Hardcore players tend to be driven by achievement, difficulty of content and accomplishment, both in stats and appearance.

 

Performance is the most important factor, and most Hardcores pursue character and stat improvement to maximize performance in the most difficult content the game provides. Hardcores tend to make up a minority of the playerbase in most modern MMOs, but tend to be more loyal, less transient in nature.

 

They tend to desire new top tier content that is difficult in nature and do not care for QoL improvements. They usually oppose things like a market addition, and also generally oppose any effort to make a game or it's content more friendly to casual players.

 

I just wanted to clearly post my definitions of each player type.

[howieloader]

Speculate

 

There you go.

 

I can source you on the general report information that this information is gleaned from over time however.

 

SuperData Research - Digital games market intelligence

 

Newzoo - market behavior and analytics with a focus on esport gaming

 

Nick Yee - Research scientist at Ubisoft

 

NPD group - Market analytics

NPD group - Video game market analysis

 

You are welcome to peruse the various reports and studies yourself and come to your own conclusions. Naturally, we are all guessing when it comes to this game, as Bioware has released very little information on the subject.

 

Right, so you were just pulling numbers out of your ***...

[LordArtemis]

Right, so you were just pulling numbers out of your ***...

 

Shenanigans.

Edited January 13, 2015 by LordArtemis