regarding punishment for exploit

[Neoforcer]

And again, I'll point out that if the number of people in this thread alone who claim to not have used the exploit nor associate with anyone who has, is a proper sampling of the game population as a whole

 

Ya i watched all the top end pve guilds on my server doing it so it a little more wide spread then the pitch fork punisher's want to think. The market has been flooded with items alone so pretty much every one has touched some thing in game that was used by people exploiting this.

[LordArtemis]

Ya i watched all the top end pve guilds on my server doing it so it a little more wide spread then the pitch fork punisher's want to think. The market has been flooded with items alone so pretty much every one has touched some thing in game that was used by people exploiting this.

 

How cheap are these exploited items?

 

I can tell you that if they are not dirt cheap (relatively speaking) my guess is the vast majority of players haven't bothered.

[Blaezinn]

So I just want to say, even with this exploit, do you people realize there are A LOT OF GUILDS that still can't clear the content?

 

GEAR DOESN'T EQUAL SKILL

 

Just because a player has the gear to do HM, doesn't mean they have the skill.

 

I feel as if it were a Christmas present, and a slap in the face at the same time.

 

"Here's lots of free gear, but you're still not gonna be able to clear the bosses." -Bioware

[Andryah]

PSA: Well, it's officially the weekend in Austin now. Time for the real forum nonsense to begin.

 

Hopefully Eric and staff are keeping a close eye on the forum from home because it is the weekends when serious negative trolling gets into full swing.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Andryah

[Theeko]

How cheap are these exploited items?

 

I can tell you that if they are not dirt cheap (relatively speaking) my guess is the vast majority of players haven't bothered.

 

About 1m per hilt/barrel on Shadowlands, and back when 186 was top end, they were 4-5m per

Edited January 10, 2015 by Theeko

[Surtain]

So I just want to say, even with this exploit, do you people realize there are A LOT OF GUILDS that still can't clear the content?

 

GEAR DOESN'T EQUAL SKILL

 

Just because a player has the gear to do HM, doesn't mean they have the skill.

 

I feel as if it were a Christmas present, and a slap in the face at the same time.

 

"Here's lots of free gear, but you're still not gonna be able to clear the bosses." -Bioware

 

Wait...wait..WAIT!

 

You mean to tell me people in full 198's cant clear content

Oh wait that's like damn near 75% of the player base.

Circles are hard.

[Surtain]

Hopefully Eric and staff are keeping a close eye on the forum from home because it is the weekends when serious negative trolling gets into full swing.

 

HAHAHAHAHA Yea right. If they can't come back to work to hot fix a massive exploit , what on god's green earth makes you think they are gonna watch this while at home?

Edited January 10, 2015 by Surtain

[Khevar]

PSA: Well, it's officially the weekend in Austin now. Time for the real forum nonsense to begin.

 

Hopefully Eric and staff are keeping a close eye on the forum from home because it is the weekends when serious negative trolling gets into full swing.

My guess is that this thread is being allowed to run it's course so people vent their frustrations. Taking a few of the bullets out of the gun, as it were. (Otherwise, it would have been deleted already)

 

Tuesday will happen, and no matter the action or inaction -- there will be some more threads complaining about how too strong or too weak the response was, etc.

 

People will continue to post angrily about it until something else happens for everyone to argue about.

 

By way of example: how many hot threads are there about Disciplines these days?

Edited January 10, 2015 by Khevar

[Max_Killjoy]

About 1m per hilt/barrel on Shadowlands, and back when 186 was top end, they were 4-5m per

 

As I noted earlier, on my server, when I check earlier, there were about 10 total 198 item mods available on GTN, ranging in price form 3 million to 10 million credits.

 

Also, chat didn't have a peep about this issue.

 

So, going out on a limb here, I'm going to say it wasn't happening on my server.

[Theeko]

As I noted earlier, on my server, when I check earlier, there were about 10 total 198 item mods available on GTN, ranging in price form 3 million to 10 million credits.

 

Also, chat didn't have a peep about this issue.

 

So, going out on a limb here, I'm going to say it wasn't happening on my server.

 

Can't craft the 198s I thought, just the 192s?

[Andryah]

HAHAHAHAHA Yea right. If they can't come back to work to hot fix a massive exploit , what on god's green earth makes you think they are gonna watch this while at home?

 

Silly comment, and exactly what I am talking about with regard to negative weekend trolling. Thank you for proving my point so early into the weekend cycle.

 

Learning Opportunity For You: Eric and staff are ... wait for it ------> Community Relations. They DON'T actually fix things.. they communicate with us about the game, bugs, etc.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Andryah

[Andryah]

My guess is that this thread is being allowed to run it's course so people vent their frustrations. Taking a few of the bullets out of the gun, as it were. (Otherwise, it would have been deleted already)

 

Tuesday will happen, and no matter the action or inaction -- there will be some more threads complaining about how too strong or too weak the response was, etc.

 

People will continue to post angrily about it until something else happens for everyone to argue about.

 

By way of example: how many hot threads are there about Disciplines these days?

 

Absolutely correct.

 

But the thread is going to get heavily trolled by negative nellies over the weekend... and probably some mindless disclosing of the exploit too.

[Draqsko]

As I noted earlier, on my server, when I check earlier, there were about 10 total 198 item mods available on GTN, ranging in price form 3 million to 10 million credits.

 

Also, chat didn't have a peep about this issue.

 

So, going out on a limb here, I'm going to say it wasn't happening on my server.

 

http://rs2img.memecdn.com/see-no-evil-hear-no-evil-speak-no-evil_o_62417.jpg

 

I'm on Jung Ma, it's happened alot on my server and most the stuff on the GTN came from mats exploited either on Jung Ma directly or exploited on Harbie and transferred over. Price range is not indicative of whether or not it's on your server, it is extremely widespread.

 

One of my guildies did it, told me about it, I told the rest of my guild not to do it because it's an actionable offense (and I'm a responsible guild leader and like to warn people). That guildie said they wouldn't do anything because of Nefra bug, but said he wouldn't do it again. I found out last night he did it 3 times (and who knows, maybe more).

 

I hate to lose him from the game, however this has to be punished in some way or other. To do nothing would mean that the next exploit will be abused 10 times worse. It's a bad position to be in for BW, but no one in their right mind can defend the actions of the exploiters, or especially those that spread and sold access to the lockout.

[Andryah]

One of my guildies did it, told me about it, I told the rest of my guild not to do it because it's an actionable offense (and I'm a responsible guild leader and like to warn people). That guildie said they wouldn't do anything because of Nefra bug, but said he wouldn't do it again. I found out last night he did it 3 times (and who knows, maybe more).

 

I hate to lose him from the game, however this has to be punished in some way or other. To do nothing would mean that the next exploit will be abused 10 times worse. It's a bad position to be in for BW, but no one in their right mind can defend the actions of the exploiters, or especially those that spread and sold access to the lockout.

 

Question: why did you not kick him from your guild?

 

You warned him, he promised not to do it again, he did it again.. you let it slide? He lied to you and put the rep of your guild in jeopardy. The message you send to your guild, IMO, is that this is acceptable.

 

You cannot enforce what Bioware does/does-not do.. but you as the GM have complete control over the ethics management of your guild.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Andryah

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I respectfully disagree, on a few things, though. Your own personal experience may or may not be indicative of the overall situation. Just as what I THINK occurs, you THINK (based on your own experience alone, and maybe Khevar's) that it's a rampant issue. Granting you that for a moment, let's go a little deeper. The affect you point out would only really happen if many many people were taking advantage of the exploit. Which likely would have only been the case relatively recently, as knowledge and use of the exploit has gone viral. And then possibly only on certain servers, as many folks claim to still have no knowledge of the exploit and how it works. If that is the case, then your problems are solved on Tuesday when everything resets again, no worse for wear.

 

I guess first it pays to state which server you may use. On Harbinger it's be rampant for weeks now to the point it's hard to look at a level 60 on fleet not running around in 198's.

 

Now the problems do not get solved on Tuesday if they don't go about fixing it correctly, namely removing everyone's ill gotten gear that got it.

 

And again, I'll point out that if the number of people in this thread alone who claim to not have used the exploit nor associate with anyone who has, is a proper sampling of the game population as a whole, then there should be plenty of people available with whom you can run the raids.

 

Have you actually counted the number of people in this thread saying they've not used it? I've not but from my reading it's actually very few and that small sample as you say would be over all servers. Even if we assume those pro punishment vs those against are those that did not and did use the exploit it still becomes quite a small portion as in that case there are quite a few people here who DID use the exploit. Of course no one will admit to that, at least not here as it probably breaches ToS in and of itself.

 

And while we're really getting in depth, if the exploiters are really only after the gear, then they would only have the lockout on the HM OPs. Meaning they are still very much available to run the SM OPs. Not to mention TUXs point earlier that you actually get better comms by running the 55 Ops. Which, to my understanding, are not exploitable at this time. So, if your main issue is that you can't raid at all, then I'd beg to differ. You still have plenty of options to raid. And if it's specific to the two new OPs, then you still should have plenty of people with whom to run it, at least on story mode. Which, if you don't have the proper gear, is where you should be at this point anyway. Again, either way, your problems are all solved on Tuesday. So, at worst, you've been inconvenienced slightly for a few days.

 

The bug is done in both. Whilst the better gear is in HM noone seems willing to pass up the opportunity for the free SM gear either. Yes I am tlaking about the new ops, the old ops seem more popular than ever but I was wanting to become "game" active again ( I always play for marketing/crafting purposes - another aspect I enjoy ) for new content. Not content I have cleared so many times it's become boring.

 

I'm sure if I lived in a US timezone where I could game I would probably find pugs but in APAC they almost do not exist and my guild runs are also generally in the wrong timezone ( I joined for the conquest though ) and are full of a lot of people running in 198's now heh, go figure.

 

In the end I just wanted to run the new ops for the challenge ( working out new mechanics though I know this doesn't happen, people will have to explain them to me or they won't let me run - apparently MMO's aren't supposed to actually be challenging and about discovery etc. but that's a whole other gripe of mine ), the entertainment and any story etc. that may be in them. It's always fun meeting the new bosses for the first time. Since this exploit though I cannot get a group and I imagine if the gearing isn't fixed I'll still have issues as I'll be "under geared".

 

All in all though, none of this has anything to do with the fact people cheated and should lose the gear they gained.

 

I could be quite obtuse here infact. I don't care how it's done, how long it takes, the only FAIR action is for all ill gotten gained gear to be removed. I'm not going that far yet as I do understand the challenges and will wait and see what BW have in store.

 

And yes, Eric called it an exploit. But as has been pointed out above, he said that it CAN result in punishment at BW's discretion, not that it necessarily WILL.

 

This I agree with, earlier you were stating it may not be a breach of ToS when it clearly is. Any breach of ToS MAY result in punishment however. It is still clearly a breach of ToS. Further than that for me though, it's blatant cheating.

 

If it is really affecting players in a negative way, then BW should have shut it down as soon as they discovered how rampant it was. I'm not blaming BW for the actions of the players, but they could have put a stop to it much sooner, and have chosen not to. This, to me, indicates that it isn't affecting game play in any really measurable way. But that is an inference based on the information at hand.

 

I really don't know why BW didn't do something about this. I could also guess, like you, that they are tracking this easily and know exactly who are doing it so that as it continues over the weekend etc. and if they DO take action against all involved noone can act innocent and unknowing.

 

I would like to think if they COULDNT track this easily they would have put an emergency patch in to shut off the op or done the maintenance required much sooner *shrug*.

 

Otherwise as others have said they are condoning cheating. I've played games like the before and people would then start blatantly looking for any cheat/hack they could to get ahead all because often lazy admins would not take action against their paying community for cheating etc. - often it resulted in the decline/demise of these games. Granted these were smaller browser based games but the same concept still applies when it comes to company integrity.

 

You can say that they have affected your game play all you want. If this exploit is really ruining your gameplay experience then, by all means, submit a ticket with the evidence of how you've been affected. I couldn't get a group for one specific Operation this week, because everyone is locked out, is a pretty minor complaint don't you think? You can still run any other operation, FP, or you can PVP, run dailies, or do any other content in the game.

 

The point is I shouldn't have to cater my play style because of cheaters? How is this so hard to understand? I shouldn't have to change a damn thing, they should be punished or the issue resolved so things can go back to normal ( what i pay for ) and that is all there is to it.

 

Or can we agree that as paying customers we are both entitled to feel however we want about the situation?

 

I have no issue what so ever with what you want to say on your own experience. It's when people try to globalize it for everyone else that it becomes bothersome. Especially when they seemingly are taking the side of cheaters or are cheaters themselves.

 

As for the crafting, I think that "advantage" has been greatly overstated as well. If these people are going in for gear, then they are going to use the gear. They aren't going to RE it to learn a schematic. And as has been noted multiple times, the prices on the materials have been lowered which actually helps the general population. If the hardcore raiders, who would normally be the ones to have the mats and sell them, are the only ones using the exploit, then wouldn't they be only hurting themselves by flooding the market? Since the top end gear (198) is not, to my knowledge, even craftable at all yet, that lends even less weight to your argument regarding crafting. As for hurting me as a 186 crafter, no, that hasn't hurt me at all. Why? Because the prices on the lower tier have never been competitive with the higher stuff. People who don't raid are generally more than happy to purchase the lower tier (186) gear. And if I do happen to learn a 192 schematic, the lower price on the mats I need to actually craft it is extremely helpful.

 

Don't forget extra toons, they can easily run and grab extra pieces for RE beyond what they themselves may need. 9 toons within a week would have all the gear needed for their main, weeks beyond this is all cream.

 

I think a previous poster ( rocketwoofus ) has done a good job of illustrating the issues this has had on the crafting market, in his/her eyes at least.

 

If it were only hardcore raiders sure, it's not though, it's entire guilds ( many of whom aren't even hardcore raiding guilds ) and I know this for fact first hand.

 

Except your 186 gear has less demand now because people that may have used it for toons or companions could easily now be using exploited 198 gear in place of what they may have paid you for.

 

I can't elaborate on the GTN issue personally as I don't find these markets the best money makers at the best of times, my issue in personaly experience is more the raiding. Others however have stressed issues with the GTN ( which I can see and understand ) so perhaps any formal discussion on such should be directed at them like rocketwoofus for example who seems to have a good understanding of that particular issue.

 

You have your opinion on how wrong this may be and I have mine, nothing is going to change either so it's not overly worth trying. I continue to do my marketing things and I am currently playing other games until I fleet I can get into the operation content comfortably but I will still happily stress my views here as I do enjoy a good debate/discussion.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I bought my pve set off the GTN now because people used said bug to craft that gear and my gear gets taken away. That i used hard earn credits to buy. I should be punished because others did wrong right this is what happens when you open the can of warms your asking BW to do. False positive happens back in the day when the game first came out people got banned over a ilum valor issue. BW banned a bunch of people that had nothing to do with the issue and later had to take back the bans because they realized there mistake. There logs cant even tell if you had a item if you deleted it and ask fora restore most of the time they tell you they cant find it. So you want them to randomly delete gear when they have issue even restoring gear that you accidentally deleted. great idea

 

Firstly if you refer to my full idea on the issue it first entertains the point that they may not be able to track cheated gear but they should be able to track anyone that actually cheated ( got a drop without doing the content ) I would hope.

 

If that's the case my concept applies to those people, that is anyone identified as having run the exploit. If you have never run the exploit you have nothing to fear as you wouldn't get flagged. If you did cheat, then well you get everything that's coming to you sorry.

 

Next though is the issue as AMulls pointed out that the BiS gear isnt even RE'ableand thus can't be bought from GTN? Perhaps someone can confirm as I also think this is the case. If so it means anything you bought from GTN is equivalent of ultimate comm gear and I left this out of my concept as it does open it up for more innocent people to get hurt.

 

If however you were a flagged cheater and you lost ALL 198 gear regardless of how you got it, again no sympathy from me there.

[Max_Killjoy]

Can't craft the 198s I thought, just the 192s?

 

Yes, you're right, that should say 192. That's what I get for posting in a rush.

 

Point stands -- if GTN and chat are any indication, this isn't on at least one server.

 

 

I'm on Jung Ma, it's happened alot on my server and most the stuff on the GTN came from mats exploited either on Jung Ma directly or exploited on Harbie and transferred over. Price range is not indicative of whether or not it's on your server, it is extremely widespread.

 

Yes, thirteen 192 item mods on GTN at this moment on my server, very widespread...

Edited January 10, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Quraswren]

My guess: They'll fix the exploit, not say a word about what was done to exploiters (most likely nothing) and either this topic will 'die out' (except to be brought up for the next topic of the week) or the forums will turn into a poodoo storm. Either way, I'm going to make sure I have some popcorn on hand.

 

and you're probably right. It'll get fixed and nothing will be said but in just 2 days I'm been able to get a number of people to tell me they did it and how much. Many of them did it quite a lot.

 

I'll wait and see what happens to that group of people I've been able to put together. See if BW gives a damn about how the game is played and put that whole "In summary, we are aware of the exploit taking place and we will be taking appropriate action against those who have abused it. " to the test. See what BW thinks is "appropriate" for gamers who cheat and exploit a very easily recognized exploit and those that continued to spread and repeat it.

 

BW may not say a damn thing on the forums but I'll be able to know what they do.

[Simcity]

Yes, you're right, that should say 192. That's what I get for posting in a rush.

 

Point stands -- if GTN and chat are any indication, this isn't on at least one server.

 

 

 

 

Yes, thirteen 192 item mods on GTN at this moment on my server, very widespread...

 

There are well over 100 192 item mods (only looked at hilts, barrels and enhancements) off GTN

 

I guess Harbinger has no morality, lets ban the whole server right?

[Drockter]

There are well over 100 192 item mods (only looked at hilts, barrels and enhancements) off GTN

 

I guess Harbinger has no morality, lets ban the whole server right?

 

Guess it would depend on the number of names posted those 100 items... even still 100 is small potatoes as far as number of players.

 

To be honest however, as much as I despise cheating, exploiting, etc. And yes, I want bans for the heavy offenders, and people making credits off of selling access to the exploit

 

I don't think it would be fair to label anyone who posted a 192 item an exploiter. They may very well have received those items legitimately.

 

There ARE people who have legitimately completed these missions who may be crafting...

 

We can not tell from these forums who may or may not have exploited, nor can we reliably tell in game from looking at who posted something to the GTN. I'll leave the finding out who the exploiters are to BW.

[Draqsko]

Question: why did you not kick him from your guild?

 

You warned him, he promised not to do it again, he did it again.. you let it slide? He lied to you and put the rep of your guild in jeopardy. The message you send to your guild, IMO, is that this is acceptable.

 

You cannot enforce what Bioware does/does-not do.. but you as the GM have complete control over the ethics management of your guild.

 

He knows I am not happy with the situation, but kicking him isn't really a solution either. There are ways to punish someone without using the final resort. My guild knows where I stand on this or any exploit, and his case is an outlier and involved his friends outside the guild and himself. I've already taken him to task about it, he knows where I stand now without a doubt, and if there's a repeat then we'll look at the possibility of removal. Yes I do have control over the ethics of my guild, but part of those ethics is compassion and forgiveness. A ban from the guild is not the answer for him, just like a ban from the game is probably not the answer for alot of the offenders of this exploit.

 

I was illustrating my case to show how pervasive this became, and I generally do a good job isolating my guild from these things by being incredibly active and forcing them to use lockouts legitly. Killjoy seems to think it wasn't happening on his server, but I beg to differ. This had to happen at offpeak hours, and if people were doing it then on the smallest server in the game, it's pretty widespread.

[PublicWifi]

Give something fun and exclusive to players who have not used the exploit. .

 

Is this a joke?

 

So... You want something for nothing by simply playing the game according to the intended mechanics and TOS? Oh please, let's roll out the red carpet and demand freebies for not taking advantage of an exploit.

 

Yes devs, please shower me with items simply because I didn't take advantage of an exploit.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm glad you didn't take advantage of the exploit. I'm glad you didn't fold and follow. My hat is off to you. But really? You want something, for nothing, simply by playing the game as expected?

[LordTea]

There are a lot of different names for the same thing. Bugs, Exploits, etc. I am a programmer well versed in not only Proper design paths but also Why they need to be used.

Instead of BW testing its software it forces paying non employees to do it. any rewards gleened from that testing can easily be taken as payment for services rendered (Testing). I try to play the game to the best of my ability. I can't get the gear everyone gets. let alone get it as fast as I see them get it. It takes me months to gear up. And when I finally get that gear, they make it obsolete again. I have a suggestion if anyone with any pull in the developers camp can see this. Don't release it if it isnt done. if it can't be tested then it isnt done. If you make players test it and they find something good then let that be their compensation for doing your jobs. If you do not like it, hotfix it by shutting down the content until it is fixed. if it takes more than a week to fix it, then Try structured programming instead of what is being done now. All these people that don't like this on one side or the other have a very large number of games out there they can pay to play Other than this one. Banning paying players? what makes u think they will come back?

 

I agree. this thread of almost a thousand posts seems to be a theraputic one. But. if history is a good teacher then we can definitely count on BW not making a sound call.

[Andryah]

There are well over 100 192 item mods (only looked at hilts, barrels and enhancements) off GTN

 

I guess Harbinger has no morality, lets ban the whole server right?

 

For a server the size and activity level of The Harbinger.... these numbers are small potatoes.

 

I'm not condoning exploiters.. just stating that these numbers for listings on The Harbinger are nothing extraordinary. compared to listings for level 36 purple mods... it's a nit.

 

[i just personally checked The Harbinger myself and frankly I don't see much real distortion on the GTN.. other then some people selling them for under market value (which of course is suspicious). So I can see some of the early access crafters feeling buthurt about not being able to own the market and charge predatory prices for the first few months.. but I'm sure they will get over it. I do not agree with predatory pricing practices such as deployed on top tier mods by crafters.. so I have no sympathy for them.]

 

Besides.. there is no way to know legit from illegit as far as these GTN listings are concerned. It would be improper to assume they are illegitimate, just like it would be improper for us to make believe there is no exploit at play right now.

 

As for how many people exploited and exploited actively, and continue to do so... nobody knows but Bioware.. who also happens to be the only party who can take any actions.

 

I DO think that Bioware will likely put illegitimate crafters at the top of their action lists. They are low hanging fruit. It's not that hard to parse the log data for crafting results and then comparing the results with a data parse of who legitimately obtained the items via proper game mechanics. So people selling mods right now are quite gutsy IMO.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Andryah

[Andryah]

He knows I am not happy with the situation, but kicking him isn't really a solution either. There are ways to punish someone without using the final resort. My guild knows where I stand on this or any exploit, and his case is an outlier and involved his friends outside the guild and himself. I've already taken him to task about it, he knows where I stand now without a doubt, and if there's a repeat then we'll look at the possibility of removal. Yes I do have control over the ethics of my guild, but part of those ethics is compassion and forgiveness. A ban from the guild is not the answer for him, just like a ban from the game is probably not the answer for alot of the offenders of this exploit.

 

I was illustrating my case to show how pervasive this became, and I generally do a good job isolating my guild from these things by being incredibly active and forcing them to use lockouts legitly. Killjoy seems to think it wasn't happening on his server, but I beg to differ. This had to happen at offpeak hours, and if people were doing it then on the smallest server in the game, it's pretty widespread.

 

Fair enough.

 

We have an unconditional zero tolerance for exploits in both guilds I am in... so he would be gone... and gone fast. Because if we don't hold fast on unconditional zero tolerance.. then the guild rep suffers in the long term. Years of MMO experience has validated that for us as the leadership team.