Why Are Dye Modules Destroyed Upon Removal?

[TheSeventhJedi]

Easy answer - CM sales and credit sinks.

[OddballEasyEight]

Easy answer - CM sales and credit sinks.

 

I agree on the first part, but how is it a credit sink?

The credits go from one player to another. They don't dissapear (except for the sales tax, which is nominal)

[wilsonstone]

LOL.. this again.

 

/sits down with popcorn and watches the hyperbolic rinse and repeat of the flogging of the horse.

 

The answer to the question ------> because Bioware chose to do it that way.

 

I know.. I know.. not the answer the entitled are looking for, but it is the relevant fact of the matter.

 

I don't even get why it matters. If you remove a dye from an item its destroyed. So what? Even if you want to use the dye pack on another set of armor or something you can just buy one from the GTN (because its not real money. If you think the color is too expensive and don't want to spend the credits it wasn't worth that much to you in the first place....in pretend currency)....or you can roll the dice and buy a color pack from the cartel market...or you can get the crafting skills to make it.

 

But in the end it doesn't affect gameplay at all. There is no good reason to be upset about it....and "I want it just 'cuz" isn't a good reason.

[Darth_Wicked]

You are certainly not the one to go into what kind of reputation people have.

Yours is hardly untarnished around here.

 

I am not one to try and rationalize every bad decision BW does, unlike some people.

 

Not quite. But nice try.

 

Hardly an argument. Plus, history speaks for itself.

 

Easy example: What happened to the crafting of colour crystal after the cartel market crystal were introduced with the legacy option?

It pretty much died, that's what.

 

Which only reinforces what I said earlier: Crafters stopped being a priority for Bioware a long time ago. You're the one who implied otherwise.

 

Also, last I checked, I never suggested that dyes should become legacy bound or unlocked via-Collections.

 

Will say it again: Reading helps.

 

And some people take issue with same sex romance.

Doesn't mean they are automatically right.

 

Try not to deflect the issue.

 

Yeah, crafting something else or only letting dyes from the cartel market be infinate.

 

"Infinite" seems a stretch to say the least.

 

As I alluded to earlier, being used a fair number of times would be a significant improvement. We're talking about a one-time use 2000 CC color dye.

 

But do you really think people would be fine with getting legacy on cartel dyes and not crafted dyes?

Because people tend to whine about stuff around here, in case you didn't notice.

 

Real argument there. As if I expected otherwise.

 

Maximising profits is hardly the term to use.

 

It is the term to use.

 

I wouldn't expect you to see it though.

 

the black and white dye combos are so expensive that they can't possibly sell enough to be profitable.

They are doing it for profit, of course.

But they're a company.

Companies are kinda known for doing things for profit.

 

Again, deflecting the issue. Stating the obvious is unnecessary.

 

Making the cartel dyes reusable would practically dry up that revenue stream for them.

 

So you claim.

 

14 in the new SOR expansion. (+4 from the two new reputation vendors)

 

I was talking about color crystals, not dyes.

How many new color crystal schematics have you seen lately again? For crafters I mean.

Try to remove the eye patch for a bit.

[Anzel]

Well that would kill my economy since I craft Black/Red dyes.

 

But I'm sure you don't care about my ways of making money in the game as long as you get stuff for free, amirite?

 

FREE? Did you say FREE? Woah there brother. Pump the brakes a little bit. I paid $150 for the CE, I purchased two expansions and have been paying my sub since day 1. Let's calm down with all of the FREE talk. My bank account feels otherwise. And I'm talking about actual real life money. No fairy gold or whatever else you may be referring to.

 

I'm a SUBSCRIBER. Removing little pretend color dyes should cost 0 credits and they should NOT be destroyed.

[Max_Killjoy]

My opinion is that dyes should be like all other mods -- removable, but bound once installed the first time.

 

This shouldn't kill the dye market any more than it kills the mod market.

[Tsillah]

You were the condescending one, surely not me.

 

The one does not exclude the other. I can see how he might have seen your comment as condescending, although I will admit I had to laugh about it.

 

Plus, what I said is logical, namely that your behavior by now is well known. I'll leave it at that.

 

Saying that his behaviour is well known is not a matter of logic, but perhaps you were referring to your original statement on the topic, in which case I would suggest looking up the word "namely". I'll leave that to your own discretion naturally.

 

Your original statement is a conclusion based on an opinion or assumption at best. I would like to submit that that's a poor premise to base your logic on. I do not contest that BW want to make money but your description was just a tad too colourful to be factual from my point of view.

 

Other than that carry on.

[OddballEasyEight]

I am not one to try and rationalize every bad decision BW does, unlike some people.

 

 

 

Hardly an argument. Plus, history speaks for itself.

 

 

 

Which only reinforces what I said earlier: Crafters stopped being a priority for Bioware a long time ago. You're the one who implied otherwise.

 

Also, last I checked, I never suggested that dyes should become legacy bound or unlocked via-Collections.

 

Will say it again: Reading helps.

 

 

 

Try not to deflect the issue.

 

 

 

"Infinite" seems a stretch to say the least.

 

As I alluded to earlier, being used a fair number of times would be a significant improvement. We're talking about a one-time use 2000 CC color dye.

 

 

 

Real argument there. As if I expected otherwise.

 

 

 

It is the term to use.

 

I wouldn't expect you to see it though.

 

 

 

Again, deflecting the issue. Stating the obvious is unnecessary.

 

 

 

So you claim.

 

 

 

I was talking about color crystals, not dyes.

 

Try to remove the eye patch for a bit.

 

It's like talking to a brick wall with you.

 

I don't even get why it matters. If you remove a dye from an item its destroyed. So what? Even if you want to use the dye pack on another set of armor or something you can just buy one from the GTN (because its not real money. If you think the color is too expensive and don't want to spend the credits it wasn't worth that much to you in the first place....in pretend currency)....or you can roll the dice and buy a color pack from the cartel market...or you can get the crafting skills to make it.

 

But in the end it doesn't affect gameplay at all. There is no good reason to be upset about it....and "I want it just 'cuz" isn't a good reason.

 

You hit the nail on the head.

Edited January 7, 2015 by OddballEasyEight

[OddballEasyEight]

FREE? Did you say FREE? Woah there brother. Pump the brakes a little bit. I paid $150 for the CE, I purchased two expansions and have been paying my sub since day 1. Let's calm down with all of the FREE talk. My bank account feels otherwise. And I'm talking about actual real life money. No fairy gold or whatever else you may be referring to.

 

I'm a SUBSCRIBER. Removing little pretend color dyes should cost 0 credits and they should NOT be destroyed.

 

Costing 0 credits is FREE.

 

Doesn't matter if you are a subscriber or not, because if you use that argument then everything in the game should be 0 credits to you because you are a subscriber.

[Darth_Wicked]

My opinion is that dyes should be like all other mods -- removable, but bound once installed the first time.

 

This shouldn't kill the dye market any more than it kills the mod market.

 

The main issue is the running rampant hypocrisy.

 

It's like talking to a brick wall with you.

 

Whatever floats your boat or aids you to deflect the issue.

[Tolunart]

This is a science fantasy universe (heavy on the "fantasy"). They could have made dyes reusable, they simply chose not to. But the more reasonable assumption is that they would not be reusable so it always baffles me when threads like this crop up.

 

Because the mods in other slots *are* reusable. If you can remove the armoring, crystal, barrel, hilt etc. from customizable gear and put them into another piece of gear, it's reasonable to assume you can remove the dye module as well.

 

There is no "real world logic" reason for this, the only explanation is this is what the devs wanted to do. Other games handle it differently. Guild Wars 2 started out with dyes as consumables too, but consuming one dye unlocked that color for a toon and could be applied as many times as you wanted. I guess when you drink a bottle of dye you can spit out that color whenever you want, right?

 

Later they changed to unlocking the color account-wide, so that even toons that didn't drink that dye could still spit it out.

 

When I played Rift the dyes were consumables, too, but each bottle was only good for one application to a single item. A lot of dyes were craftable, though, including black and white which also sold for a pretty good amount once you learned the recipe. And they added a wardrobe feature that meant once you had a look you liked you could keep that look no matter what armor you used.

 

The devs can set up any system they want. Account-wide unlocks would be great from a player's perspective, especially if they release a new chest piece you like better than your current outfit. Even paying a small fee per use, but having access to every available color combination would be good. But 1-2k cc for black or white mods, and the hunt for other rare combos via lottery box sells more cartel coins, so unless the market for them dries up we're stuck with what we have now.

[Tolunart]

LOL.. this again.

 

/sits down with popcorn and watches the hyperbolic rinse and repeat of the flogging of the horse.

 

The answer to the question ------> because Bioware chose to do it that way.

 

I know.. I know.. not the answer the entitled are looking for, but it is the relevant fact of the matter.

 

The thing is, they're not actually asking a question. They already know the answer, so there is no question. They want to complain about how unfair it is, but without being honest enough to come out and say "This dye system sucks! Do something better!"

 

Those who "answer" a question about a video game by explaining how dyes work in the real world... now that I just don't get. Next, explain how hyperspace works and post schematics for a working hyperspace engine.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Tolunart

[Brewski]

Because the mods in other slots *are* reusable. If you can remove the armoring, crystal, barrel, hilt etc. from customizable gear and put them into another piece of gear, it's reasonable to assume you can remove the dye module as well.

 

There is no "real world logic" reason for this, the only explanation is this is what the devs wanted to do.

...

 

If I sew a new button onto my jacket, I can remove it with a pair of scissors and use it on another jacket.

 

If, however, I take that jacket and dye it purple, I don't have the option to wring the jacket out three months later and retrieve the dye I used so that I can dye another jacket purple instead.

 

Real world enough for you?

 

Seriously, though, dyes are a cosmetic money sink. No reason to change the behavior, as every game needs money sink, and at least this one is cosmetic only.

[Andryah]

The thing is, they're not actually asking a question. They already know the answer, so there is no question. They want to complain about how unfair it is, but without being honest enough to come out and say "This dye system sucks! Do something better!"

 

Absolutely agree with you.

 

I really do not understand the dishonesty with this approach by some people. Why crab walk into a complaint? Why not own it and be honest about it? Probably because the approach taken by the OP here gives room for back-pedaling when people disagree or pushback.

 

Or maybe the entire thread topic and original post is simply a badly played rhetorical exercise. OR.. could be just another random /tossing of red meat into the forum to watch people chomp chomp and get into food fights over trivial things.

[Khevar]

Next, explain how hyperspace works and post schematics for a working hyperspace engine.

If I still had my Vox Communicator I could ask Justin Long to explain it to you.

[Grayseven]

The Dye system along with the Appearance system are prime examples of what I believe is wrong with SWTOR.

 

If you charge 20 USD for high demand dyes you are shooting yourself in the foot. After all what is better, selling one player out of a hundred a dye for 20 USD or selling a hundred players a dye for 1 USD?

 

I don't have an issue with dyes being single use items, but I do have an issue with pricing (as well as with the system as a whole). The idea of "random dye packs"...just an obvious money grab in a game filled with them.

 

Character customization is one of the ways a MMO should use to make players invested in their characters as well as the game as a whole. Give players the ability to have the look they want and you create a psychological draw to the game.

 

In my opinion, the dye system should be changed first by reducing the cash cost of dyes to an amount that will get more players to use it (more customers paying a lower price can earn more than a few players paying a higher price) and creating separate primary, secondary and tertiary dye slots that will allow true customization of color combinations instead of flooding the market with color combination dyes that...well, lets be honest here. I swear some of these color combinations are chosen by throwing darts at a color chart.

 

Of course, then we run into the problem of crafted dyes but all is not lost. If Primary color dyes were CM only and the Secondary and Tertiary dyes were crafted, there would still be a market for both CM and crafted dyes. Lower prices for CM dyes would make it easier for players to change up their look without feeling locked into a choice because they dropped 20 bucks on that White/White or Black/Black dye. More sales at a lower price can be more profitable than fewer sales at a high price...

 

With the appearance system, changing a characters appearance should be a credit sink while new appearance options could remain a CM item.

 

Just my opinion, mind you. I don't know the metrics and maybe the CM is selling those 20 USD dyes at a rate far beyond what my anecdotal observations show (how many players have you actually seen with an all white or all black look?).

[Tolunart]

I

Real world enough for you?

.

 

The item in the game is a piece of code, a string of numbers that can be manipulated by changing some of the numbers. It is not a jacket and the color does not come from dye. So no, not real world enough. Or can you make a medium jacket transform into an extra-large jacket by changing the 2 to a 4?

Edited January 7, 2015 by Tolunart

[Brewski]

The item in the game is a piece of code, a string of numbers that can be manipulated by changing some of the numbers. It is not a jacket and the color does not come from dye. So no, not real world enough. Or can you make a medium jacket transform into an extra-large jacket by changing the 2 to a 4?

 

You didn't ask if there was a "real world logic" reason for interchangeable clothing sizes. You said there was no "Real World Logic" for dyes being non-removable, and I was simply pointing out that there is, in fact, a real world argument for it.

 

As for the real question, which does not in any way pertain to the real world, the second part of my post addressed that. Dyes are a cosmetic money sink in the game. Since it's entirely optional, and has no impact on game play, I'm fine with it remaining so. I mean, if there are people willing to pay $20 to dye their outfit black, I'm okay with them subsidizing my game play by doing so.

 

That said, I think Bioware would have been better off if they didn't show the dye slot in the gear view. If it operated like GW1 did, where applying the dye changed the appearance but didn't show as a "mod", people wouldn't think of it as something they can extract, and would think of it as a consumable. (Which is what it is.) They just would have had to add some sort of "reset" dye that reverted the gear to it's original color and we'd be good to go.

[Tolunart]

You didn't ask if there was a "real world logic" reason for interchangeable clothing sizes. You said there was no "Real World Logic" for dyes being non-removable, and I was simply pointing out that there is, in fact, a real world argument for it.

 

I didn't ask any questions and I'm not interested in justifying a game object using real-world solutions, particularly when the game involves alien races who fly around in spaceships and use magical powers to throw rocks at enemies.

[CaptMurphy]

Maybe I'm just used to it, but the consumable part isn't so bad. In fact, if I kinda like the dye that's currently in a chest piece, particularly if a more expensive dye is in there, it may be cheaper just to buy the same piece of armor and dye that. Nowadays, it's pretty easy to get a fairly priced chest piece... especially now that most, if not all of the previous cartel crates were re-released during holidays.

 

My question is, why can't there be dedicated primary and secondary slots for gear? I know I'd buy a lot more dye packs to the point where I wouldn't even have to unify any piece to my chest. They could even keep the primary only and secondary only system they already have in place for single color dye packs. Just seems like a missed opportunity to me.

[Andryah]

My question is, why can't there be dedicated primary and secondary slots for gear? I know I'd buy a lot more dye packs to the point where I wouldn't even have to unify any piece to my chest. They could even keep the primary only and secondary only system they already have in place for single color dye packs. Just seems like a missed opportunity to me.

 

Yeah, I would prefer to see them put resources on multiple dye slots (primary, secondary, and tertiary). And, while they are at it.. make dyes single color dyes and let us put them into any of three dye slots. This would be a much better use of dev resources where dyes are concerned, IMO.

 

Separately... this continued nonsense in the forum about how much some rare dyes cost in CCs.... get over it. NOTHING forces you to purchase any dye with cartel coins.. ever. The GTN always has them listed for sale by other players (who generally use them as a clean way to convert CCs into credits). Same goes for anything sold on the CM. People act like they are forced to purchase cartel items for cartel coins.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Andryah

[Max_Killjoy]

Yeah, I would prefer to see them put resources on multiple dye slots (primary, secondary, and tertiary). And, while they are at it.. make dyes single color dyes and let us put them into any of three dye slots. This would be a much better use of dev resources where dyes are concerned, IMO.

 

Yes -- having two or three separate dye slots on the gear items, with each dye just being for a color that can go into any of the two / three slots, would be perfect.

 

Sadly, if they did this, all the good colors would become CM items, leaving crafters with Puke Brown and Bile Green and Urine Yellow.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Brewski]

I didn't ask any questions and I'm not interested in justifying a game object using real-world solutions, particularly when the game involves alien races who fly around in spaceships and use magical powers to throw rocks at enemies.

 

Then maybe stop listing the lack of "Real World Logic" as a reason to support your argument? (Although rereading your post now, I'm wondering if your own use of the phrase was being sarcastic as well? This may just be a case of misunderstanding the context.)

 

In any event, saying "I dislike this game mechanic because I don't think I should have to pay for a dye twice" is a valid opinion. If that's what you are saying, I understand, but respectfully disagree, as I think cosmetic money sinks are the best kind. (But I also don't care enough that I would object if Bioware decided it wasn't needed anymore.)

[Keypek]

A dye on the other hand has chemically bonded with the item it is coloring so is a one use item. Why should they change the laws of physics in this universe just because you are too much of a cheap-*** to buy a new dye module?

 

So why can dyes be used over and over again on your star fighter in this game once you get it? In GSF dyes are reuseable with no limit. Yet for your toon they are not? Couldn't be because no one would ever pay money for a GSF dye cause that part of the game is dead? Face it, they do it for the money and it has nothing to do with "the laws of physics". lmao

[Drockter]

Has nothing to do with RL dyes, and how they work in clothes... ... its really as simple as, people will buy the dyes from the CM for what they are charging... knowing already that they are consumable.

 

Edit: Why aren't the player crafted one permanent... because a dye is a dye... either a) they dont want to open that can of worms (Why can I remove the Black/Red dye, but not the black/black... or Oh look the crafters get shafted again) or b) the system is just programmmed that a dye (crafted or CM is still... a dye, and all dyes are consumable... and no real reason for them to change it (or it isnt a high enough priority to them to change it).

 

Its not a credit sink in anyway (in terms of credits... they would be removed from the game to qualify as a sink).

 

It is about the Cartel Market (whether you got you dye from the CM, or bought it off the GTN (in the case of the CM dyes) either way, someone bought it from the CM (you or the person selling it on the GTN).

 

My guess, no one would buy the dye for the GSF (admittedly a small % of players play this), if they were destructible.

 

Its a revenue stream... plain and simple.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Drockter