Ability delay and the wearing thin of patience

[Jandi]

Eric didnt specify what friday:D. Maybe next month, next year, maybe never.

 

The LAST friday.

[Djiini]

No matter how loudly the people crying scream, this game isn't going to die because of this.

 

Spheal with it.

[eartharioch]

Swtor stumbled after launch for a whole host of reasons. Some outside Bioware's control, others very much their fault.

 

I can name a few in which Bioware shoulders the blame. But there are many more of course....

 

1) Arrogance and stubbornness of old dev staff. Poor PR and poor treatment of players, especially at public events.

2) Poor quality of game at launch, specifically in game cinematic sequences and silly visual bugs.

3) Poor implementation of expected modern MMO features, while others were completely missing from the product.

4) Visual progression and the refusal to consider housing, appearance, minigames and a market as they were counter to the original design vision for the game.

5) Poor visual and mechanical performance of the game compared to other games on the market.

 

Had this game been designed and launched by the current dev team I feel it would fared much better in the market...but then again this dev team would have been more likely to actually listen to the playerbase.

 

Interesting points, but I'm not sure I'd agree with your conclusion:

 

First, TBH, I don't have any BW employee rosters, so I don't know how many of the old devs are still there -- we got to hear of some big names and we know that there were layoffs, but I never heard of a complete purge. Second, you didn't really define a time period for what makes the "old dev team" and the "new dev team". That said:

 

1) New devs are still arrogant and stubborn, have poor communication, and don't treat players well. See "Heal to full" and Scoundrel/Operative class changes for examples. I haven't attended any public events, so I can't comment on that specifically.

 

2) Having been present at launch, I'd rate SoR's launch quality as no less poor (lag / ability delay instead of login queues), I see no difference in the cinematic quality (main character still uses the wrong weapon in cut scenes, companions don't always wear the right gear), half the classes (Imperial) get the wrong intro cut scene (and Agents specifically had it worse), and there are still silly visual bugs (Concealment Operative loading into every scene in weapon unholstered position with no weapon).

 

3) UI improvements clearly implemented poorly (they are cited as the source of ability delay), no serious improvements to Group Finder, no cross server, dye system still clunky, housing present but lifeless, etc. There is still no practical gear management system, and while changing spec is now easier, that's more of a side-effect of the Discipline system than any focus on making switching roles convenient. A minor QoL improvement (mounting while moving) that was introduced with Rocket Boots back in 1.x took over two years to implement and is seen by the devs as such a breathtakingly new and valuable feature that it is classified with (and priced higher than) the Rocket Boots themselves (on a per-Legacy basis), portable repair and mail droids, and field respec.

 

4) There have been no substantial improvements to character appearance since the dye system, which still doesn't work for many items, and while there are many new looks introduced all the time, they are buggy, and bugs go unresolved for long periods of time when they are actually addressed. They added in an Appearance Station with a few upgrades around the same time as the dyes, but only added two new hairstyles since then. Housing feels largely like they were ticking off a check box on what an MMO should have, and is largely sterile and lifeless. The failure to include Fleet Chat (imo) makes GSH a net negative to the game. GSF is pretty much a failure -- instead of improving the PVE space game and improving the [ground] PVP experience, GSF is PVP but with essentially new characters -- I'll give them points for trying, not for delivery. GSF is essentially a classic example of what you called the arrogance of the original devs.

 

5) As far as I can tell, swtor still falls behind other contemporary games in terms of visual and mechanical performance -- while there have been some minor improvements, as the devs themselves say repeatedly, there is only so much that can be done with the engine.

 

I'm not trying to dis the current devs, but any substantial difference that you see between them and the original devs is pure fantasy. Also, many of the features that were added later were started by the original devs. I personally attribute the launch failure to management releasing the game early (before some of these features were finished) and failing to plan in advance for the inevitable bubble and burst cycle of the launch population.

[LordArtemis]

Interesting points, but I'm not sure I'd agree with your conclusion:

 

Fair enough, and though I will present my views on some of your comments, they are not meant as counters. I just want to chime in on some of your points if I may.

 

First, TBH, I don't have any BW employee rosters, so I don't know how many of the old devs are still there -- we got to hear of some big names and we know that there were layoffs, but I never heard of a complete purge. Second, you didn't really define a time period for what makes the "old dev team" and the "new dev team". That said:

 

The "old" and "new" dev team time period is around the time that the market and F2P launched, though i do not have specifics. That is the time that most of the well known names left the company. There are still some folks that remain, but most of the folks working on the game now were not in the positions they are now, or were in lower positions before the staff purge.

 

Hence my characterization of the "old" and "new" teams. I don't like to name names because I feel that lacks tact, so instead I just use general terms. I of course wish the old team the best of luck in their future endeavors, but frankly I am glad they are gone and I feel the game is better off for it.

 

That does NOT mean the game is perfect....there is still plenty of room for improvement, and the current dev team has stumbled with a few things. But their performance and willingness to improve the game QoL wise is head and shoulders above the old team IMO.

 

1) New devs are still arrogant and stubborn, have poor communication, and don't treat players well. See "Heal to full" and Scoundrel/Operative class changes for examples. I haven't attended any public events, so I can't comment on that specifically.

 

I would generally disagree with this, but will concede that the one place they still perform poorly is communication. But I can state a few specific improvements

 

1) Though communication is still poor, it is better than it was under the old team.

 

2) At public events they are MUCH more polite and respectful of the playerbase, and more engaging with the audience. Instead of hyping the game and how "awesome" it is, they constantly thank the players for their loyalty and passion for the game. They also are much more approachable, and seem to be actual fans of the game.

 

3) I disagree with arrogant and stubborn, though I will admit that, at first, they were a bit resistant to making certain changes....quite a few nos early on turned to "yes", and then they stopped saying no (which was a wise move IMO).

 

2) Having been present at launch, I'd rate SoR's launch quality as no less poor (lag / ability delay instead of login queues), I see no difference in the cinematic quality (main character still uses the wrong weapon in cut scenes, companions don't always wear the right gear), half the classes (Imperial) get the wrong intro cut scene (and Agents specifically had it worse), and there are still silly visual bugs (Concealment Operative loading into every scene in weapon unholstered position with no weapon).

 

The quality has not improved as much as it should have by now, I will concede that. But it has improved in the areas that they have made efforts, including the landing sequences and the quality of the intros to Makeb and FA/Revan.

 

Many of the poor elements that exist in the game currently are holdovers from the poor development job that was done by the original dev team IMO.

 

That does not mean they have not made mistakes of their own, but many of them I believe are based on poor design aspects from the original team that created situations where almost any change was going to cause a bug.

 

3) UI improvements clearly implemented poorly (they are cited as the source of ability delay), no serious improvements to Group Finder, no cross server, dye system still clunky, housing present but lifeless, etc. There is still no practical gear management system, and while changing spec is now easier, that's more of a side-effect of the Discipline system than any focus on making switching roles convenient. A minor QoL improvement (mounting while moving) that was introduced with Rocket Boots back in 1.x took over two years to implement and is seen by the devs as such a breathtakingly new and valuable feature that it is classified with (and priced higher than) the Rocket Boots themselves (on a per-Legacy basis), portable repair and mail droids, and field respec.

 

I would argue that the introduction of Strongholds, as a QoL improvement was one of the best improvements ever made for the game. It would have been impossible under the old dev team, that flat out refused to even consider adding housing to the game, were dead set against QoL features and did not feel any of this was possible based on the design constraints of the old build.

 

This dev team proved that most of the old excuses were just that. Not only were most of these changes possible, they were actually beneficial to the game (one could argue).

4) There have been no substantial improvements to character appearance since the dye system, which still doesn't work for many items, and while there are many new looks introduced all the time, they are buggy, and bugs go unresolved for long periods of time when they are actually addressed. They added in an Appearance Station with a few upgrades around the same time as the dyes, but only added two new hairstyles since then. Housing feels largely like they were ticking off a check box on what an MMO should have, and is largely sterile and lifeless. The failure to include Fleet Chat (imo) makes GSH a net negative to the game. GSF is pretty much a failure -- instead of improving the PVE space game and improving the [ground] PVP experience, GSF is PVP but with essentially new characters -- I'll give them points for trying, not for delivery. GSF is essentially a classic example of what you called the arrogance of the original devs.

 

GSF is there one big failure IMO. Though certainly better than the PVE space combat feature I feel it has appeal with a tiny fraction of the current playerbase...which is a waste IMO. It was one of the most anticipated features for the game and one of the worst improvements....I clear blunder for the current team IMO.

 

In this particular case they ignored the current playerbase, either out of necessity or arrogance, and payed the price for that. It might be too late to give GSF the appeal it deserves. I agree this was a mistake on the new devs watch.

 

I also agree the housing part of Strongholds is a major disappointment, for many reasons, but foremost the silly choice to go with hooks, the bane of housing fans everywhere, arguably of course. But for Strongholds I feel the QoL improvement soundly trounces any other shortcomings with the system. IMO it is NOT housing, but a QoL mechanic instead. And a rather brilliant one at that.

 

5) As far as I can tell, swtor still falls behind other contemporary games in terms of visual and mechanical performance -- while there have been some minor improvements, as the devs themselves say repeatedly, there is only so much that can be done with the engine.

 

Fair enough.

 

I'm not trying to dis the current devs, but any substantial difference that you see between them and the original devs is pure fantasy.

 

I would contend it is fantasy to actually claim there is no substantial difference. The changes to the game since they took over are VERY substantial, and completely opposite to what the original dev team was willing to do.

 

Market

Housing

F2P

Access teirs

Double XP events

Bounty hunter event

Rakghoul event

Nar Shadaa Nightlife event

12XP event

Animal mounts

Treek

Removal of visual progression

Reduction of cooldowns for travel

Expansion of Legacy to include QoL improvements

Solo flashpoints

Tacticals

GSI buff for Makeb

Reduction of mob difficulty across the leveling game

Unification of planetary comms

Simplification of planetary comms

Addition of new customizable armor, weapons and new speeders to the game

New emotes, including healing animations

Reduction or removal of certain nuisance costs

Improvements to the GTN

Improvements to Groupfinder

Improvements to the UI and Mission interfaces

 

And almost ALL of these were ones designed by the new dev team, not the old team. And this is not even close to a complete list.

 

Remember, they refused to even consider many of these changes...and indicated they were not working on any of them, nor would they EVER do so. Not all of them, but most of them.

 

Also, many of the features that were added later were started by the original devs. I personally attribute the launch failure to management releasing the game early (before some of these features were finished) and failing to plan in advance for the inevitable bubble and burst cycle of the launch population.

 

I do not agree with this view. Most of the changes made since the old dev team left are brand new designs or directions that the old dev team refused to consider, much less work on.

 

One can certainly claim some of the content was from the old team....Makeb comes to mind certainly.

 

At any rate, I agree that there is quite a bit of work left to be done, and we simply do not agree on the differences between the new and old teams.

 

And that is fair enough IMO.

Edited January 9, 2015 by LordArtemis

[Joesixxpack]

Still got a ways to go if we're going to beat this one.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=159300

[Andryah]

The "old" and "new" dev team time period is around the time that the market and F2P launched, though i do not have specifics. That is the time that most of the well known names left the company. There are still some folks that remain, but most of the folks working on the game now were not in the positions they are now, or were in lower positions before the staff purge.

 

Hence my characterization of the "old" and "new" teams. I don't like to name names because I feel that lacks tact, so instead I just use general terms. I of course wish the old team the best of luck in their future endeavors, but frankly I am glad they are gone and I feel the game is better off for it.

 

It would be more accurate to say "old approach" vs "new approach". [Which by the way... is the norm for MMOs these days... because with very few exceptions, they attrit above 60% within months and shift their business models and dev approach to correct the causes. ]

 

Why? Because none of us actually know the roster of the original dev team (ie: at release) and the updated team (ie: F2P onward). People come and go from MMO dev teams all the time, particularly after product launch. There is no way to tell who did what, who influenced what, etc...... so there is no objective way to lay blame or salvation credit.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Andryah

[Zorvan]

I just wanted to chime in that I was getting the ability delay real bad yesterday on Taris. I've previously tried messing around with every setting combo possible with no result. However yesterday, I decided to change one setting I've always overlooked: ability qeueing ( or however you spell that ). It's always been set to the shortest interval, but I changed it to 1 just for giggles. It's not a fix by any means, but it does seem to be related in some way, as the ability responsiveness did indeed noticeably improve with far less "misfires" than before. Edited January 9, 2015 by Zorvan

[Grayseven]

It's Friday and I'm patiently waiting for the response to this issue. I'd hoped that maybe we'd see it sooner, but now I'm just hoping we see anything at all.

 

The lag is still present, but at least we are seeing some movement on bugs in the next patch and some balance related moves for the next "big one"...

 

Not sure how I feel about the "meat tree" deco, but I guess if you can't take a joke you shouldn't be playing.

[LordArtemis]

It would be more accurate to say "old approach" vs "new approach". [Which by the way... is the norm for MMOs these days... because with very few exceptions, they attrit above 60% within months and shift their business models and dev approach to correct the causes. ]

 

Why? Because none of us actually know the roster of the original dev team (ie: at release) and the updated team (ie: F2P onward). People come and go from MMO dev teams all the time, particularly after product launch. There is no way to tell who did what, who influenced what, etc...... so there is no objective way to lay blame or salvation credit.

 

Actually, Andryah, I am familiar with some of the folks names that worked on development of this title, continued work for a period after launch and then left the company, and some that have remained as well as a few of the new folks.

 

To be entirely honest, I am not privy, but my boss is. He is friends with quite a few devs across the industry. He generally knows who is working on what and where they land if they leave.

 

There is one person in particular that had quite a large influence on the design of the title, though he was involved in a part of the game that was not direct design during development. That one person is now gone from the company entirely, and I think the game is MUCH better off for it.

 

At any rate, it is a generalization of course. As I said earlier, I avoid naming names. Not only would it demonstrate a lack of tact, my boss would likely not appreciate it.

 

He is tolerant of us being active forum members and playing this game in the office, I wouldn't want to jeopardize that.

[StefanInter]

First off, Happy New Years everyone! I apologize if you feel a lack of communication around this issue. Unfortunately, I haven't provided much since I do not have a status update as of yet.

 

Here is what I can tell you. We definitely have not forgotten about this and the team is still assessing what the cause is, and how we can begin to address it. What I am going to do is to work with the team to get a status update with as much detail as I can, by next Friday (although hopefully before then!).

 

Thank you again for your continued patience. We know that dealing with these issues isn't the best experience and we will get them addressed as soon as we can!

 

-eric

 

Where is our detailed update Eric....

[Pagy]

there isnt an update

 

they still have no idea what the problem is

 

even though they should have been working on this as of dec 2

[Costello]

I'm sure its coming today, it has to be their number one priority.

[asbalana]

I'm sure its coming today, it has to be their number one priority.

 

Clearly you have not seen that new legacy perk that is available for 2M credits or CCs.

[Heat-Wave]

First off, Happy New Years everyone! I apologize if you feel a lack of communication around this issue. Unfortunately, I haven't provided much since I do not have a status update as of yet.

 

Here is what I can tell you. We definitely have not forgotten about this and the team is still assessing what the cause is, and how we can begin to address it. What I am going to do is to work with the team to get a status update with as much detail as I can, by next Friday (although hopefully before then!).

 

Thank you again for your continued patience. We know that dealing with these issues isn't the best experience and we will get them addressed as soon as we can!

 

-eric

 

Of course it is now a week later, and nothing...

 

Eric, walk down the hall, knock on the door of your boss, and tell them that they have a business problem.

[timthegem]

Of course it is now a week later, and nothing...

 

Eric, walk down the hall, knock on the door of your boss, and tell them that they have a business problem.

 

Something: http://dulfy.net/2015/01/09/swtor-performance-status-update/

[Grayseven]

So there is now a nice post by Eric concerning the ability lag and the UI frame rate issue which both seem to be related...delivered on Friday, just as promised.

 

We'll see how things go after Tuesday and I'll keep my fingers crossed that it works.

 

No comments on why it took a month and whether or not they'll schedule expansion launches for a time that they don't get ignored during the holidays but if I see another expansion released in late November or early December I'll know I can stay away from the game until mid January without missing anything.

[sakica]

I dont know but he doesnt sound reassuring. It seems like game is broken as ****.

[Koji_Ippiki]

Lag continues.

[Baalthir]

If anything the lag has gotten worse today - Tython is virtually unplayable (a right pain when I wanted to start a new Jedi Knight character) - every few steps the character gets stuck while waiting for server update, took 10 minutes just to get through the initial dialog

 

Really hope that the devs get something sorted soon, though reading Eric's response doesn't fill me with hope . . .

 

"This was an interim solution to this problem as lowering the number players in a specific area reduces the impact of server hitching to the player. We’ll continue to monitor and adjust this number as needed."

 

Really? There was 140 users on Tython 2 days ago, today there are 50 and today the lag much much worse! Before my own connection gets blamed I can log onto three of my other characters (same server) and they are all fine until they go to Tython then it's lag-central.

 

"First is our data tracking around performance. We are constantly monitoring the performance of the game to determine when things have gotten worse and to find ways to address it."

 

Yet it's taken a month and a lot of annoyed players before you've accepted there's an issue and looked into it?

 

"I know performance is far from perfect and that changes aren’t coming quite as fast as we wish they were. We apologize for the inconvenience this has caused many of you."

 

Haha, try the opposite end of the spectrum from perfect. Maybe you'd like to give all active accounts during this problem a token of how sorry you are for the inconvenience? Some cartel coins would be nice.

 

Guess we'll see on Tuesday whether they have managed to sort the issues out, not holding my breath at the moment.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Baalthir

[Heat-Wave]

Really hope that the devs get something sorted soon, though reading Eric's response doesn't fill me with hope . . .

 

"This was an interim solution to this problem as lowering the number players in a specific area reduces the impact of server hitching to the player. We’ll continue to monitor and adjust this number as needed."

 

Really? There was 140 users on Tython 2 days ago, today there are 50 and today the lag much much worse! Before my own connection gets blamed I can log onto three of my other characters (same server) and they are all fine until they go to Tython then it's lag-central.

 

Eric is probably just the messenger, and no disrespect meant to him...

 

But frankly, a lot of what he posts is complete crap and outright lies... Only those who drink the kool-aid actually believe him anymore, and maybe those who want to hold on to hope.

 

A good example is the recent post he made about Bioware having many advanced systems to stop gold spamers. Yea right, *name of gold selling site*.COM isn't even blocked and they post every 5 minutes all day long on fleet. I still get 2 to 3 in game mails with the exact same message for weeks on end.

 

A ten year old could block that.

 

Bioware doesn't have ANYTHING in place for gold sellers, if they aren't blocking obvious and known web site addresses, then they aren't doing anything at all.

 

Which makes Eric's post a complete lie.

 

Which means that frankly, I don't believe anything he posts anymore. I probably sound jaded, but how many times do you have to be lied to before you get tired of stink?

 

---

 

This recent comment about the patch reducing the number of people per instance. Um, no, it didn't... up to 150 people still in each instance, but even in those with only 5 people, even on backwater planets with nothing much going on, the lag is still there, many times just as bad as on the populated places.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Heat-Wave
Edited to remove name of gold selling site

[Lucyfer_Infinity]

While i agree with you, I think posting name/address of gold selling site might get you in trouble better edit it.

[LydMekk]

I will be FURIOUS if we are credited With something like a pet or Mount as recomp for all this serverlag shait.

[Zorvan]

Anyone who stays subscribed after Tuesday comes and goes with little to no improvement has no further room to complain. Speak with your wallet, or don't speak at all.

 

As long as they know they can collect your money regardless of the quality ( or lack thereof ) of their service, things will continue as always.

[Sala]

Playing on my DPS Sage I have a few issues.

 

1st off, there is no ability delay for me.

 

Turbulence is channeled, when it ends it should have fired off but the icon for turbulence does not grey out and the ability winds up never having fired off, you can recast turbulence again asap but the result is a wasted 3 second channel.. in other words.. doing nothing.

 

Quake is constantly doing 2 erroneous things. Sometimes Quake puts out either no damage at all, or the targeting icon for Quake disappears. Both results in no damage being done and time wasted channeling what looks like quake animation but again, no damage done.

 

I have over 110 accuracy and I see the 'misses' in the parses, so that is not the issue I see.

I see the ability channeled and no damage. it's as if I had spent 3 seconds doing absolutely nothing.

 

I see this 'no fire' issue every day.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Sala

[LordArtemis]

Yea, it seems like the ability delay has abated somewhat.