Max_Killjoy Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 well... since all the new bioware games now require origin in order to be played legally? some of us are kinda stuck if they want to play them, so... yeah. That's not providing something of use, that's them betting that you'll want to play their game more than you'll want to stand up for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeweledleah Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 That's not providing something of use, that's them betting that you'll want to play their game more than you'll want to stand up for yourself. uhuh. becasue surely its better to cut your nose off to spite your face, right? it has nothing to do with me standing up for myself. over a damn videogame. not to mention. steam does the same thing if you think about it. as for your allegations? citation WITH proof needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eartharioch Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) I'm in no way defending EA practices, whatever they may actually be, but you are speaking in absolutes here and absolutes to not apply in any legal context once you have agreed to the terms and conditions of the EULA. So you are simply presenting personal opinion. Their EULA stipulates certain permissions to them as part of your acceptance. You accepted them. Now... IF you don't like the terms, don't accept the EULA and forgo EA games via origin. IF you genuinely feel you have some legal claim of impropriety on their part.. then press legal action. Anything else is simply puffing chest for the sake of prosecuting a personal ideology. I'm glad that you were able to determine that what I wrote was my personal opinion based solely off the facts that I wrote it and didn't cite any other authority. If I had wanted to say that it was wrong in any system other than my personal code, such as a particular legal system, I would have used words to that effect. The person to whom I was replying was asking about blaming Origin for allegedly forcing people to submit to groundless searches of their private property. I was indicating how/why I could do exactly that. I also indicated that I didn't know enough about the situation to determine whether or not I believed that the allegations were true. I fail to see how answering somebody's question about how somebody could blame somebody for doing something by giving them an example is "simply puffing chest for the sake of prosecuting a personal ideology". If you are are interested only in the legal issues of the subject, you can simply ignore parts of the discussion that focus on other issues. However, you should probably be aware that there are a lot of people who don't share the religious fervor you have for ToS agreements (a personal ideology about which you frequently puff up your chest). Also, there are also a lot of people who don't believe that ethics and legality are equivalent. While you may not be one of them, you shouldn't act like those of us who do shouldn't be able to discuss them. Edited January 3, 2015 by eartharioch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) uhuh. becasue surely its better to cut your nose off to spite your face, right? it has nothing to do with me standing up for myself. over a damn videogame. not to mention. steam does the same thing if you think about it. I don't use Steam for the same reasons -- invasive, unneeded, useless. If gamers refused to be use crap like Steam and Origin, the publishers wouldn't make it mandatory. But most gamers can't be arsed to resist when there's a new shiney they want. There are multiple ways to get around Origin, but unless one is willing to pirate the games (which I'm not), one is still sending EA the message that people will buy games with invasive DRM bloatware. Edited January 3, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries_cz Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 1) I don't know enough about the specifics of Origin's program to argue details, but an inappropriate search is an inappropriate search regardless of the extent or method. So whether they "just" search the Registry as opposed to scanning every byte on the drive is irrelevant. 2). My comment was a reply to somebody who asked if a company should be blamed for making an inappropriate search. My answer is yes. I'm not saying that Origin *did* make one, just that it's appropriate to blame them if they did. That said, all of the evidence does point to them making one. It is not an inappropriate search. It is a search so that the program can even work (generate your game library and check what DLCs you have). Every program that generates a list of software installed on your computer does roughly the same thing. If you are interested, this is what the output looks like - http://i.imgur.com/aHmI2xm.jpg (this process repeats itself roughly every 30 minutes, IIRC, been a while since I took the picture) However, I will agree that if a software does inappropriate search, its creators should be blamed. But looking through registry for stuff related to games installed and maintained through Origin is not an inappropriate search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries_cz Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 I don't use Steam for the same reasons -- invasive, unneeded, useless. If gamers refused to be use crap like Steam and Origin, the publishers wouldn't make it mandatory. But most gamers can't be arsed to resist when there's a new shiney they want. There are multiple ways to get around Origin, but unless one is willing to pirate the games (which I'm not), one is still sending EA the message that people will buy games with invasive DRM bloatware. Steam and Origin are some of the least invasive and problematic DRM methods in existence. Yes, DRM is fighting a unwinnable battle, but it will take time for corporate fatcats to realize that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eartharioch Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 It is not an inappropriate search. It is a search so that the program can even work (generate your game library and check what DLCs you have). Every program that generates a list of software installed on your computer does roughly the same thing. If you are interested, this is what the output looks like - http://i.imgur.com/aHmI2xm.jpg (this process repeats itself roughly every 30 minutes, IIRC, been a while since I took the picture) However, I will agree that if a software does inappropriate search, its creators should be blamed. But looking through registry for stuff related to games installed and maintained through Origin is not an inappropriate search. Context matters. I didn't say that Origin made an inappropriate search. The person to whom I replied said "Can you blame a company for checking that you don't own a hacked copy of their games?" That was the entirety of his post, not just a snippet. While the majority of this discussion is focused on Origin, people have mentioned similar systems such as Steam. The poster to whom replied I posed a general question, and my answer was equally general. I don't think that if I buy and install Program A that it is appropriate for Program A to check to see if I have other programs installed *for the purpose of attempting to determine whether or not those programs are hacked*. I'm not talking about searches performed for other purposes, such as checking to see if *it* is hacked, enhancing the user experience, or its own proper operation. There may be other reasons why specific searches may be inappropriate, but it wouldn't be because the purpose of the search was (imo) malum in se. In less abstract terms, there is a difference between DRM that attempts to prohibit a user from using the program with which the DRM shipped and DRM that would interfere with [technically] unrelated programs. And I would also say that If a publisher sells several games with the same DRM scheme, it's ok for the publisher to have a common DRM manager, as long as that manager doesn't [negatively] interfere with programs not sold as part of that scheme. Again, I don't know the specifics of what Origin collects and sends home, so I'm not making any claim that I think its searches are inappropriate due to their purpose. I probably shouldn't have said that it looks likely that they are inappropriate, as I meant that to mean that I think it's highly likely I'd think the searches were inappropriate *for other reasons* (such as privacy and security). But again, I haven't actually seen (or care to see) enough data, so I'm not actually claiming that Origin is doing anything inappropriate. Annoying, yes, but that's a whole different subject Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 It is not an inappropriate search. It is a search so that the program can even work (generate your game library and check what DLCs you have). Every program that generates a list of software installed on your computer does roughly the same thing. And if someone has absolutely no interest in having a "library", or a "games manager", or a "download manager", or automatic updates, or... ? Why should someone waste a single byte, or single cycle, on tack-on software that does nothing for them? Paradox used to sell their games as full downloads, on a different service. I was a regular customer. When they switched to Steam-only, I quit buying their products, because I WILL NOT install Steam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eartharioch Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Steam and Origin are some of the least invasive and problematic DRM methods in existence. Yes, DRM is fighting a unwinnable battle, but it will take time for corporate fatcats to realize that. I agree. It's pretty telling when an industry doesn't have a "Best in Class" but has "Least Bad in Class" instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries_cz Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) And if someone has absolutely no interest in having a "library", or a "games manager", or a "download manager", or automatic updates, or... ? Why should someone waste a single byte, or single cycle, on tack-on software that does nothing for them? Paradox used to sell their games as full downloads, on a different service. I was a regular customer. When they switched to Steam-only, I quit buying their products, because I WILL NOT install Steam. It doesn't do anything for you (assuming you not want to share your achievements, or talk with friends while playing), but it helps ensure the creators get paid for their work (oversimplification for large developers, but true for indie devs) and significantly helps with the distribution (we are starting to live in the "Cloud Age" after all), ensuring that the game is patched, etc. As long as there is a need for DRM software (not saying I am fan of it), that software should be as lightweight, non-invasive and unproblematic as possible. Steam and Origin both achieve that. If you look at other DRM systems, you will see they are much more invasive and problematic. If you have absolutely not interest in it, fine, that is up to you, but the whole world does not revolve around what you want. Personally, I am curious as to what will become of GOG Galaxy client, it looks like a pretty cool idea Edited January 3, 2015 by Aries_cz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 It doesn't do anything for you (assuming you not want to share your achievements, or talk with friends while playing), but it helps ensure the creators get paid for their work (oversimplification for large developers, but true for indie devs) and significantly helps with the distribution. As long as there is a need for DRM software (not saying I am fan of it), that software should be as lightweight, non-invasive and unproblematic as possible. Steam and Origin both achieve that. If you look at other DRM systems, you will see they are much more invasive and problematic. If you have absolutely not interest in it, fine, that is up to you, but the whole world does not revolve around what you want. DRM does nothing but put an extra burden on paying customers, it does NOTHING to stop piracy. It treats the honest like criminals and serves as a good joke for anyone who wants to get around it. Achievements? Sorry, I don't care about getting gold stars, that's laughable console crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries_cz Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 DRM does nothing but put an extra burden on paying customers, it does NOTHING to stop piracy. It treats the honest like criminals and serves as a good joke for anyone who wants to get around it. Achievements? Sorry, I don't care about getting gold stars, that's laughable console crap. If you read my other posts, you will realize that I agree with the statement that DRM is pretty much useless. However, as long as it is used, it should be as noninvasive and unproblematic as possible. Origin and Steam fill these criteria pretty well. And if you do not care about social aspects of gaming, that is your thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexx_T Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 You can get a refund for pretty much ANY EA game, bought on origin within specific period of time (i don't remember exactly for how long). Even better you don't have to explain why you want a refund. I received refund for FIFA 15 bought by someone, who gained access to my account about 2 weeks age. They did not change password probably because they did not have access to email. It took about 2 working days to approve my refund request and additional 3-5 working days to actually receive money on my bank account. I am russian and live in Russia btw. Regarding connection between Origin and SWTOR. They are connected via the same login/password combination, BUT AFAIK they have separate payment methods system, meaning you can have credit card linked to SWTOR account and by the same time have NO payment methods linked to Origin account, thus making it impossible to buy anything in Origin. The flaw which made it possible for someone with access to Origin account to buy anything using previously linked CC is this: Origin does not ask for CVV2 (CVC) when you buy something nor does it use 3d secure system. Either of above mentioned precautions would make it impossible to buy anything in Origin for anyone except for card holder. So yes, hack or not hack, it is still EA's fault for allowing to make purchases with linked CC without additional verification. CVV2/CVC is an old but still sometimes usefull security check. P.S.: In US probably "business day" term is used instead of "working day" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries_cz Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 The flaw which made it possible for someone with access to Origin account to buy anything using previously linked CC is this: Origin does not ask for CVV2 (CVC) when you buy something nor does it use 3d secure system. Either of above mentioned precautions would make it impossible to buy anything in Origin for anyone except for card holder. So yes, hack or not hack, it is still EA's fault for allowing to make purchases with linked CC without additional verification. CVV2/CVC is an old but still sometimes usefull security check. P.S.: In US probably "business day" term is used instead of "working day" I noticed the same with Steam recently, and was surprised by it. I am pretty sure that both systems used to ask me to CVV2/CVC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I noticed the same with Steam recently, and was surprised by it. I am pretty sure that both systems used to ask me to CVV2/CVC. Steam does some of the time... I find that my first purchase of the day/week whatever doesn't seem to want it, double that if it is a cheap item. If I do another one, it usually asks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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