GTN pricing and undercutters

[JourrnoRush]

I'm not a crafter for profit, I only craft for my characters.

 

Whenever I loot something I ALWAYS undercut depending on the item.

 

If I know its something that sells like hotcakes, I'll undercut by a few hundred or even just one credit.

 

If its something that just sits there aka Starship Upgrades, i'll undercut 100k or something of the sort.

 

The majority of those who undercut are just selling loot or leftovers IMO

[Khevar]

I totally agree. Thing is i put my things at a price not overly high. On my server purple augments can sell now even as high as 230k. Listing them for 200k was kinda high price, but close to medicore. If I sell at 160k I consider it still a good price. Just sigh on people who post way too low and hurt the market for sellers., while being one. That's all

 

/thread?

See, here's the funny thing. If you get your own materials through running missions, the costs are:

 

4 white mats - 3,200cr

8 green mats - 4,800cr

4 blue mats - 2,400cr

2 purple mats - 8,000cr

Total cost: 18,400cr

 

Selling them for 160,000cr is 770% profit. If someone undercuts you by 40% (96,000cr) they're still making a 420% profit.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Khevar

[Aussircaex]

I totally agree. Thing is i put my things at a price not overly high. On my server purple augments can sell now even as high as 230k. Listing them for 200k was kinda high price, but close to medicore. If I sell at 160k I consider it still a good price. Just sigh on people who post way too low and hurt the market for sellers., while being one. That's all

 

/thread?

 

Have you never seen a supply/demand curve? There is no way one seller can "hurt" the market for sellers. If they post their wares below equilibrium, they will get snatched up quickly. There's no reason your wares won't sell after they're gone, unless yours were overpriced.

 

Sellers make the most money overall if they sell at equilibrium, not if they inflate the price. If you actually care about the health of the seller's market, you'd know that. You don't though, because what you want is to continue to sell YOUR wares at a high price. Because you can't possibly keep up with demand on your own, you get a smaller share of the profits if the price comes down, and you don't like that.

 

There's always a range of prices to be found on the GTN due to people undercutting then being bought out - that's an economy. But if sales are fast enough, the "lowest" price will naturally rise, and the "undercut" prices will also rise. This is tempered by how quickly people can restock the GTN, undercut each other, and lower the price. If your goods don't get sold somewhere in that shuffle, then sorry, but your prices were too high. Doesn't matter what it was last week.

[jstankaroslo]

Have you never seen a supply/demand curve? There is no way one seller can "hurt" the market for sellers. If they post their wares below equilibrium, they will get snatched up quickly. There's no reason your wares won't sell after they're gone, unless yours were overpriced.

 

Sellers make the most money overall if they sell at equilibrium, not if they inflate the price. If you actually care about the health of the seller's market, you'd know that. You don't though, because what you want is to continue to sell YOUR wares at a high price. Because you can't possibly keep up with demand on your own, you get a smaller share of the profits if the price comes down, and you don't like that.

 

There's always a range of prices to be found on the GTN due to people undercutting then being bought out - that's an economy. But if sales are fast enough, the "lowest" price will naturally rise, and the "undercut" prices will also rise. This is tempered by how quickly people can restock the GTN, undercut each other, and lower the price. If your goods don't get sold somewhere in that shuffle, then sorry, but your prices were too high. Doesn't matter what it was last week.

 

that is very fine school book economy, thank you.

 

If you tried to read the thread (I know it is long, so I don't blame you, but don't try to look smart if you don't know the facts) you would know that the market isn't "at equilibrium".

Since 3.0 we're at the time where the prices are initially too high. They will set eventually at their equilibrium but now they are way higher.

Every crafter/seller with a bit of brains will try to take advantage of that. Current augment price at 150k-200k is a lot of profit. It will not stay at that level.But while it does speeding up the price decline is not wise. That is all.

 

Really, don't need to try to be smug here. I've been playing the GTN for over 2 years now and I made millions of credits on this. To buy things I cant/won't acquire the other way. The expansion is a special time. Hell I remember selling (and buying) crafting schematics for 100k at the beginning of 3.0.

 

All those profits will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

 

But for now, lets enjoy it while we can.

[captpickles]

just make me wonder. Why undercut fair market price by 25% if you are just a second seller?

Why not 1,2 or even 5%?

Inflation of prices

 

Because it sells faster. Because fools then buy that crap up uber cheap than try to repost it at the 5% cut... then I post MORE at the -25% cut... they buy it again... I keep posting until they stop... but that takes a number of reposts since there will be 4-5 bidders trying to make a buck by scooping up my cheap crap. but they don't get that I have 3-4 cargo bays full of ONE or TWO specific mats... so I can keep posting until I hit my 50% profit limit and stop.

 

Then I pick a new mat to go after that and do the same. All I do to make credits is this over and over. 2-million is not a lot to some... but that's what I make per day selling just mats. not even the special purp ones.

Edited December 29, 2014 by captpickles

[TravelersWay]

stopped reading after this.

 

Of course, every thread has to have someone smartly pointing out that this is just a game, pixels, artificial world etc.

Surprise! we're all investing our free time into this game.

 

How much free time do you have? How much is it worth to you for it to be satisfying?

Do you realize you just wasted your free time to post on the thread on some 'problem' created with a bunch of pixels?

 

Sorry my friend, but I wasted no free time at all, let alone on a thread that tries to make an "issue" where none exists. I reiterate, what you or anyone else playing this game thinks any item should be listed for on the GTN is completely irrelevant, because ultimately, no one else cares what any one of us thinks. Therefore for any of us to try to "price fix" items on the GTN or to come to the forums to complain that they are being undercut, or something is way overpriced, is quite foolish IMHO.

[Aussircaex]

that is very fine school book economy, thank you.

 

If you tried to read the thread (I know it is long, so I don't blame you, but don't try to look smart if you don't know the facts) you would know that the market isn't "at equilibrium".

Since 3.0 we're at the time where the prices are initially too high. They will set eventually at their equilibrium but now they are way higher.

Every crafter/seller with a bit of brains will try to take advantage of that. Current augment price at 150k-200k is a lot of profit. It will not stay at that level.But while it does speeding up the price decline is not wise. That is all.

 

Really, don't need to try to be smug here. I've been playing the GTN for over 2 years now and I made millions of credits on this. To buy things I cant/won't acquire the other way. The expansion is a special time. Hell I remember selling (and buying) crafting schematics for 100k at the beginning of 3.0.

 

All those profits will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

 

But for now, lets enjoy it while we can.

 

I have years of experience playing MMO markets as well. An anti-intellectual dismissal of my reasoning as "school book economy" doesn't change that, nor does a massively hypocritical accusal of smugness on my part. I simply choose not to claim that experience automatically makes me right.

 

Equilibriums change. Posting lower prices does not accelerate that. The only things that can accelerate the lowering of a price are an increase in supply or a decrease in demand. As people continue to level their Slicing, there will be more purple mats available to make augments. That'll lower the price. After the initial rush of the expansion, people's mains will have their augments and demand will drop to a more steady pace. That'll lower the price. A single seller cannot lower the price unless there is a drought of supply on the AH, where they are one of the only sellers.

 

Your fear seems to be that "once one person lists for cheap, then the next person will and then the price will be permanently lowered!" That's called a slippery slope fallacy for a reason; it's not how things actually work, and yes, we know that from school book learning. I you're seeing the price drop, it's not because of a few errant sellers offering 35% off the going rate.

[enigmacypher]

The issue though is with the item I'm talking about, they were selling as fast as I (and others) could craft them for 75k. They still do whenever the price rises back to that point. PLUS, since they are high demand, when someone cuts the price in half people undercut anyway. 35k becomes 34k, 33.9k, 28k, 25k, 24.7k in a few hours. The price slasher is only hurting themselves in the end.

 

Meanwhile I sit on top of my pile of crafted items and move onto something more profitable til the price raises again. It doesn't hurt my profits so much as just confuse me why someone would think that was a good idea. But then, this is the game where everyone complains about being broke yet passes on all loot and doesn't loot mobs for credits.

 

one of the major issues is that you get people who literally look in the GTN and find X item is selling for a lot so suddenly they decide to make this item for no other reason than because it was at that point selling for a lot which will drive prices down fast.. it is the same concept as assembly lines and making items cheaper for more money but unlike real life we don't have a government that is protecting their interests by forcing prices higher..

 

FYI real world economy IS not a free market anymore as there are WAY too many checks and balances involved THAT legally shouldn't even exist but do as governments cheat and lie their way into the green..

 

a true economy still is majorly affected by the rules of supply and demand.. an mmo has a small "caption/captive" market but also has few items so less inventiveness ..

 

If you could find a scheme for mods as cyber tech that offered defense/absorb that you could make and had a log drop rate you could make a killing .. as it is anyone who can craft said items at said level can make the same item..

 

You can't put controls on a system for lower rates without a control on the higher end too ..

 

item can only go down say 10% but can't increase in price by over 10% either..

 

also IF you really hate the undercutters you could always buy up the cheap items and resell them for your price though this can be expensive and can leave you left holding the bag WHEN the bottom drops out of the value of said item..

 

in the end in a closed system economy like an MMO the only items that really consistently sell for a reasonable amount are the materials used for making items as people level skills or make items for alts ..

 

SWTOR's GTN is still way better than say WoW's AH system that is incredibly over priced for stupid items as people buy up items just to resell for more..

[captpickles]

one of the major issues is that you get people who literally look in the GTN and find X item is selling for a lot so suddenly they decide to make this item for no other reason than because it was at that point selling for a lot which will drive prices down fast.. it is the same concept as assembly lines and making items cheaper for more money but unlike real life we don't have a government that is protecting their interests by forcing prices higher..

 

FYI real world economy IS not a free market anymore as there are WAY too many checks and balances involved THAT legally shouldn't even exist but do as governments cheat and lie their way into the green..

 

a true economy still is majorly affected by the rules of supply and demand.. an mmo has a small "caption/captive" market but also has few items so less inventiveness ..

 

If you could find a scheme for mods as cyber tech that offered defense/absorb that you could make and had a log drop rate you could make a killing .. as it is anyone who can craft said items at said level can make the same item..

 

You can't put controls on a system for lower rates without a control on the higher end too ..

 

item can only go down say 10% but can't increase in price by over 10% either..

 

also IF you really hate the undercutters you could always buy up the cheap items and resell them for your price though this can be expensive and can leave you left holding the bag WHEN the bottom drops out of the value of said item..

 

in the end in a closed system economy like an MMO the only items that really consistently sell for a reasonable amount are the materials used for making items as people level skills or make items for alts ..

 

SWTOR's GTN is still way better than say WoW's AH system that is incredibly over priced for stupid items as people buy up items just to resell for more..

 

Yup, juts keep buying my mats .. have a little price war while I sell to both sides

[Edzew]

that is very fine school book economy, thank you.

 

If you tried to read the thread (I know it is long, so I don't blame you, but don't try to look smart if you don't know the facts) you would know that the market isn't "at equilibrium".

Since 3.0 we're at the time where the prices are initially too high. They will set eventually at their equilibrium but now they are way higher.

Every crafter/seller with a bit of brains will try to take advantage of that. Current augment price at 150k-200k is a lot of profit. It will not stay at that level.But while it does speeding up the price decline is not wise. That is all.

 

Really, don't need to try to be smug here. I've been playing the GTN for over 2 years now and I made millions of credits on this. To buy things I cant/won't acquire the other way. The expansion is a special time. Hell I remember selling (and buying) crafting schematics for 100k at the beginning of 3.0.

 

All those profits will be lost in time, like tears in rain.

 

But for now, lets enjoy it while we can.

all i keep seeing you post is boo hoo hoo people keep lowering the price sooner than i think they should!!! boo hoo hoo!!! why dont they keep the price high longer and price gouge the buyers for even longer????

 

dude get over it! the prices didn't stay high like you thought for as long as you thought they should. your question got answered a long time ago... if you price higher than normal (and yes you even stated you did that) then you should expect others to post the same items for its normal lower price that is a lot less than your price!

[Retro_Chrome]

I know you said you don't care about your profits, but... that's the whole point. Drastically undercutting isn't about other people's profits, it's about yours! I don't refrain from intentionally tanking prices out of the goodness of my heart... I do it to squeeze every credit I can out of a sale.

 

 

This mindset is exactly why you will never ever have multi-millions of credits, just FYI. It isn't hard at all to make millions if you put in a minuscule amount of effort rather than picking random prices out of thin air.

 

the reason i will never make millions of credits is because i just dont care:P like i said previously.

 

i am sure i could easily do dailies from corellia/blackhole all the way to yavin 4 and make huge amounts of credits and never have to look at the GTN to make money...

 

i was just answering your question as to why people undercut so much..and while i am sure not everyone is like me, i am probably not the only one.

 

your question, my answer.

 

good luck finding what you are looking for

[Khevar]

i am sure i could easily do dailies from corellia/blackhole all the way to yavin 4 and make huge amounts of credits and never have to look at the GTN to make money...

I realize this wasn't really the point of your post, and may be slightly off topic, but ...

 

If you ever find that you want credits, but don't want to run dailies for them (or spend hours fiddling with the GTN), the simplest and easiest thing to do is keep your companions running mid-level crew missions while you do whatever it is want with your toon.

 

After a while, you'll have a stack of mats. List them on the GTN, log off, and collect credits later.

 

Some of these missions are ~10 minutes to run, only require a few seconds of your time (click-click-click), and due to Conquests, give you mats that are still in high demand.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Khevar

[ThirdDementor]

Some undercutting is senseless. Specifically, augments.

 

When it comes to augments, I know they'll always sell, and if someone's looking to buy them, he'll buy whether it's 80k a piece or a 100k a piece. And if not, there will be plenty of others to make up the difference. So when undercutting augments, I always undercut by one single credit. Anything more is a waste of profits. But then someone decides to cut by 5k, then another person does that, and it all goes downhill from there.

 

The sad part is, they aren't just denying profit from the rest of the sellers - they're actually denying profit from themselves. Because undercutting augments isn't about the actual price--it's about who's augments are the cheapest on the list when someone decides to buy. Like I said, if the cheapest on the list is 100k, people will buy it. There's simply no need to undercut it to 95k, then 90k and so on. It's much better to undercut to 99,999.

[Max_Killjoy]

Some undercutting is senseless. Specifically, augments.

 

When it comes to augments, I know they'll always sell, and if someone's looking to buy them, he'll buy whether it's 80k a piece or a 100k a piece. And if not, there will be plenty of others to make up the difference. So when undercutting augments, I always undercut by one single credit. Anything more is a waste of profits. But then someone decides to cut by 5k, then another person does that, and it all goes downhill from there.

 

The sad part is, they aren't just denying profit from the rest of the sellers - they're actually denying profit from themselves. Because undercutting augments isn't about the actual price--it's about who's augments are the cheapest on the list when someone decides to buy. Like I said, if the cheapest on the list is 100k, people will buy it. There's simply no need to undercut it to 95k, then 90k and so on. It's much better to undercut to 99,999.

 

They're undercutting by 5k for the same reason you're undercutting by 1 credit.

[ivanhedgehog]

Some undercutting is senseless. Specifically, augments.

 

When it comes to augments, I know they'll always sell, and if someone's looking to buy them, he'll buy whether it's 80k a piece or a 100k a piece. And if not, there will be plenty of others to make up the difference. So when undercutting augments, I always undercut by one single credit. Anything more is a waste of profits. But then someone decides to cut by 5k, then another person does that, and it all goes downhill from there.

 

The sad part is, they aren't just denying profit from the rest of the sellers - they're actually denying profit from themselves. Because undercutting augments isn't about the actual price--it's about who's augments are the cheapest on the list when someone decides to buy. Like I said, if the cheapest on the list is 100k, people will buy it. There's simply no need to undercut it to 95k, then 90k and so on. It's much better to undercut to 99,999.

 

no, I look at the mats. if there is a reasonable markup over mat cost, ill buy one it. if you are looking at 200k+, i can just buy the mats and make one. I have plenty of 55's with maxed skills, buying one is just convenience.

 

and if I see you undercut buy 1 credit..i will waste the 1 and NOT buy yours

Edited December 30, 2014 by ivanhedgehog

[Theeko]

Some of the mats you can buy really cheap too when people don't even bother checking the lowest price at all, bought about 20 of those Adaptive Circuitries for like 1k each

[TYBERzan]

I've actually had a few econ classes, and honestly it's probably why I make good profits overall. Like most I understand how markets typically work, but once I spend time in them I really get a feel for the nuances. Many people don't take into consideration peoples motivations when buying, emotions, and thought processes for buying an item, it gives me more of an advantage than a pure numbers game.

 

A good seller will try and think like a buyer from various angles. For example, you have a rare item and there none currently listed? List yours high priced, but with a 6 hour time window. The buyer will believe that they were lucky enough to find said item before anyone else, and the time is about to run out. They know the price is high, but if they don't act now they may lose out, because in their mind there is no guarantee that the seller will re-list it. Thank God there is no search by seller option, lol.

 

 

Now to address your two points. Cartel pricing is exactly why I haven't moved forward with contacting my rival sellers. I know it could work for short term price fixing, but I understand how greed causes cartels to fall, so I realize that letting them in on my methods would not be advantageous to me in the long run. I was just posting "/thoughts?" to hopefully get people fired up more and discuss gtn pricing schemes. Now, decision theory does play a role in my methodologies, and since this is a continuous game it means that I can use a strategy that's from a continuous strategy set that will create optimal gain for me.

 

You correctly reached an optimal strategy - impressive. And you also note that in the short term the predictive models become less usful - also impressive. I would like to point out that the solution is to trade in the long term. What I mean is that you buy items when they are cheap and common (when a pack is added to game) and wait for the LONG (think a year or more) to sell for astronomical profit.

 

That is my strat. Anyway, and it has made me lots of money, plus it requires less activeness in playing the market. One caveat is that the risk is very high that you overpay for duds, so make sure to plot prices for similar goods/models from past to get a buy-sell rating.

[well]

I see this is still going on. Here is the bottom line. You have no control over what someone else sells a item for. Plain and simple. I guess some are taking a break from the game. Because none of this will change things. Since forums are for throwing out opinions continue on. Have fun:eek:

[ThirdDementor]

They're undercutting by 5k for the same reason you're undercutting by 1 credit.

 

Perhaps, but there's no reason for it. They'll get the same chance for a sale if they undercut by 1 credit or 5000. So why pick the latter and deny themselves profit?

 

and if I see you undercut buy 1 credit..i will waste the 1 and NOT buy yours

 

So from here on out, you'll take the time to check every item you want to buy on the GTN for a piece that's 1 credit more expensive, all because of me? I'm flattered. But even if you do, it's immaterial, because someone else will always buy mine - so long as it's the cheapest on the list.

 

And so the question remains: why should I possibly undercut by more than that one credit? Why should any augment seller for that matter? There's nothing to lose (the augments will sell regardless), and everything to gain (more credits).

Edited December 30, 2014 by ThirdDementor

[Holocron]

You correctly reached an optimal strategy - impressive. And you also note that in the short term the predictive models become less usful - also impressive. I would like to point out that the solution is to trade in the long term. What I mean is that you buy items when they are cheap and common (when a pack is added to game) and wait for the LONG (think a year or more) to sell for astronomical profit.

 

That is my strat. Anyway, and it has made me lots of money, plus it requires less activeness in playing the market. One caveat is that the risk is very high that you overpay for duds, so make sure to plot prices for similar goods/models from past to get a buy-sell rating.

 

Thank you for the kudos, and you do have a great solid strategy. In fact it's one I use myself with cartel packs/items, but it takes incredible patience. Patience very few sellers really have these days, but if you are doing it, thank you for sticking it out. I would even go so far as saying that this very principle creates the availability of rare items at time when packs are embargoed, which is good for buyers.

 

Here's what is tricky with our buying and holding strategy. It's hard to predict when Bioware will bring a pack back as part of some special promo, but they still seem to follow a pattern, in that, freshly delisted packs have the longest window of opportunity for profit before they will be brought back.

[ivanhedgehog]

Perhaps, but there's no reason for it. They'll get the same chance for a sale if they undercut by 1 credit or 5000. So why pick the latter and deny themselves profit?

 

 

 

So from here on out, you'll take the time to check every item you want to buy on the GTN for a piece that's 1 credit more expensive, all because of me? I'm flattered. But even if you do, it's immaterial, because someone else will always buy mine - so long as it's the cheapest on the list.

 

And so the question remains: why should I possibly undercut by more than that one credit? Why should any augment seller for that matter? There's nothing to lose (the augments will sell regardless), and everything to gain (more credits).

 

funny thing, the list is 10 items per page..its pretty obvious for anyone that looks.

[AlrikFassbauer]

They're undercutting by 5k for the same reason you're undercutting by 1 credit.

 

Me, I'm selling away what I don't need. Money doesn't mean much to me, hence I'm able to undercut ANYTHING.

 

And since money doesn't mean much to me, I also never have more than I really need - I often, too often, spend all I get again. Last time fore another Legacy Bank tab, so I could store more crafting material there. 750.000 is quite an hefty sum for me !

 

For you, it's peanuts, because you care about money. That's why you have so much of it.

 

It's an spiritual question : What do I dedicate my energy into : Into money, into material, into ... something else ?

 

"Energy is where the attention is", is an old spiritual saying.

 

My personal energy lies within the fun to play this game. To me, Fun is an higher good than in-game money. And that's why money isn't important to me - because my priorities lie elsewhere.

 

And that's why I just cannot understand why the same "undercutting prioces" pops up EVERY 2-3 months AGAIN.

Because in-game money isn't important to me I just cannot understand what's the fuzz about undercutting prices ???

 

To me, it becomes simply boring to see the same theme about undercutting proces appear again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again like an Necromancer was animating the same old, worn-out skleleton again. Or the proverbial "beating a dead horse".

 

Looking at the amount of discussions pop out from nowhere during the last 2 years I'd expect that everything had already been said and done about undercutting prices ? And then why are people still ranting about undercutting prices ?

[Edzew]

Some undercutting is senseless. Specifically, augments.

 

When it comes to augments, I know they'll always sell, and if someone's looking to buy them, he'll buy whether it's 80k a piece or a 100k a piece. And if not, there will be plenty of others to make up the difference. So when undercutting augments, I always undercut by one single credit. Anything more is a waste of profits. But then someone decides to cut by 5k, then another person does that, and it all goes downhill from there.

 

The sad part is, they aren't just denying profit from the rest of the sellers - they're actually denying profit from themselves. Because undercutting augments isn't about the actual price--it's about who's augments are the cheapest on the list when someone decides to buy. Like I said, if the cheapest on the list is 100k, people will buy it. There's simply no need to undercut it to 95k, then 90k and so on. It's much better to undercut to 99,999.

 

i go out of my way to not buy those that list just one credit lower than the top price! those guys i consider D bags. so that is one reason why some people dont do that!! its been said in the forums before by other people that feel the same way as me. so i gotta ask why would YOU continue to do that??

 

for me it depends on the item and what i think its worth. then i go look on the GTN and see what people are listing it at... if i think the other sellers are crazy for listing something so high then ill undercut them by 50% some times even more depending on their overblown prices. if yall want to be greedy bastards and list at super high prices and sit on your wares fine more power to you but dont come yelling at me when i choose to be fair and list at lower price and move my wares much faster.

[Max_Killjoy]

Me, I'm selling away what I don't need. Money doesn't mean much to me, hence I'm able to undercut ANYTHING.

 

And since money doesn't mean much to me,

 

So why not vendor it all?

[ItachiZaku]

I added an extra '0' to an auction once, and it sold. /shrug