Sorcs are BROKEN!!!

[DrWeebs]

I have said in several posts that hatred is broken. I have never once denied that. Hatred is more broken than pt or any sorc spec. This thread is about sorcs though. Feel free to make a hatred is op thread and I will gladly post in it.

 

Here you go: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=792245

[Saikochoro]

Here you go: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=792245

 

Posted in it as promised.

[MusicRider]

That is because I have already argued the other points several times. Don't care to keep on repeating myself. So I commented on the part we can both agree on. I will not convince you on my stance with sorcs and you will not convince me on yours. It's best to agree to disagree at this point.

 

You haven't argued really anything... I mean saying that ccing a sorc over bastion is not the point, among others, then well, your arguments are invalid. Did you also leave maras uncced during ur cause that's not the point?

[Saikochoro]

You haven't argued really anything... I mean saying that ccing a sorc over bastion is not the point, among others, then well, your arguments are invalid. Did you also leave maras uncced during ur cause that's not the point?

 

I have argued my pont several times. You do not agree. That is fine.

[MusicRider]

I have argued my pont several times. You do not agree. That is fine.

 

And you have retracted them several times cause they are invalid. In a nutshell you want to see sorcs being brought back to the era that were not suitable. Still people were playing against the odds and have learnt to play the class to high levels, now that things are even of course you are gonna lose cause they higher skill cap than you. So no, your arguments are invalid cause they want to bring back to that state, and this won't happen just because you are whining.

Edited January 23, 2015 by MusicRider

[SithEater]

And you have retracted them several times cause they are invalid. In a nutshell you want to see sorcs being brought back to the era that were not suitable. Still people were playing against the odds and have learnt to play the class to high levels, now that things are even of course you are gonna lose cause they higher skill cap than you. So no, your arguments are invalid cause they want to bring back to that state, and this won't happen just because you are whining.

THIS

 

I have played a Sage/Sorc since day one early access and slogged thru 3 years of being sub par in PVP simply cause I love the class. Now that we are actually viable, and not insta targets for kills, its a giant whine fest. I don't give a rat's *** what they do to Forcequake/Storm cause I don't spec into it anyway, I'm of the opinion that for most its about pumping up epeen numbers and not about burning people down. But to do just about any of the other things people are suggesting in this thread would cripple us to the back of the line again in PVP just to stop the whiners from whining. Especially when most of the whiners don't really grasp the ins and outs of PVP anyway, they just see big numbers at the end of a reg match, even tho they don't understand the story the numbers really tell. The Sage/Sorc with 20% more damage but 50% as many kills. Hell I was in a reg match and saw people complaining about a Sage who had 840k damage to the next highest 600k... and the guy had 3 *********** kills.

Edited January 23, 2015 by SithEater

[Zadtro]

Let's keep this thread about sorcs, i am following it because I want to see what people have to say about them, yes sin & PT are worse but here is about sorcs =]

 

Anyway, I had a warzone the other day with 5 sorcs in it, they also had 2 snipers and a pt. With that much ranged is was literally pointless but on the plus side there were no sins

 

But seriously premades with 4 sorcs are happening and they can easily carry a team which is getting really frustrating, in my personal opinion i think dps shouldnt be able to dot heal, shield + dot heal can really make a difference when 5 sorcs are on 1 team.

[Icykill_]

THIS

 

I have played a Sage/Sorc since day one early access and slogged thru 3 years of being sub par in PVP simply cause I love the class. Now that we are actually viable, and not insta targets for kills, its a giant whine fest. I don't give a rat's *** what they do to Forcequake/Storm cause I don't spec into it anyway, I'm of the opinion that for most its about pumping up epeen numbers and not about burning people down. But to do just about any of the other things people are suggesting in this thread would cripple us to the back of the line again in PVP just to stop the whiners from whining. Especially when most of the whiners don't really grasp the ins and outs of PVP anyway, they just see big numbers at the end of a reg match, even tho they don't understand the story the numbers really tell. The Sage/Sorc with 20% more damage but 50% as many kills. Hell I was in a reg match and saw people complaining about a Sage who had 840k damage to the next highest 600k... and the guy had 3 *********** kills.

 

So true... And really the only time you need to actually use force storm/quake in a proper combat situation and not a node guarding one is to pressure a healer whose tank and ranged dps are standing right next to him

People who spam force storm/quake all match make me laugh... Then they brag how big their numbers were and they really did nothing all match... Usually the ones that don't LOS either... Have died the most... And haven't healed themselves at all

Even funnier is when they use force storm/quake over and over, while missing out on Crit procs...

[Zadtro]

So true... And really the only time you need to actually use force storm/quake in a proper combat situation and not a node guarding one is to pressure a healer whose tank and ranged dps are standing right next to him

People who spam force storm/quake all match make me laugh... Then they brag how big their numbers were and they really did nothing all match... Usually the ones that don't LOS either... Have died the most... And haven't healed themselves at all

Even funnier is when they use force storm/quake over and over, while missing out on Crit procs...

 

True it is bad for them to spam it constantly and i have seen that not everyone does it, but when 2-3 use it at the same time it is crazy. I see someone starts channeling then the others normally join in and 3-5k ticks x3, constant 9-15k to all players getting hit, they have a 30m range on that, how is that not comparable to a smasher?

[Saikochoro]

I have not retracted my arguments. You can keep thinking they are invalid. You are free to have your opinion. There was a point when sorcs needed help, but they were given too much as I have explained. You saying my point is invalid doesn't make it invalid. It means you have a different opinion.

[Icykill_]

True it is bad for them to spam it constantly and i have seen that not everyone does it, but when 2-3 use it at the same time it is crazy. I see someone starts channeling then the others normally join in and 3-5k ticks x3, constant 9-15k to all players getting hit, they have a 30m range on that, how is that not comparable to a smasher?

 

Easy fix... Don't stand in it... Lol

[Saikochoro]

Easy fix... Don't stand in it... Lol

 

I agree with this to a point. You shouldn't just stand in force storm. The two problems that can occur is when multiple sorcs are casting force storm or when one sorc just likes to follow you by recasting storm over and over. I don't really care about the latter example as they most likely aren't very good sorcs.

 

The problem I have with storm is that it is much better than other class soammable aoes. That is the imbalance with force storm. If other classes spammable aoes were as powerful than people wouldn't have a right to complain about force storm, but would have to complain about aoe in general. Problem is force storm is quite a bit more powerful than the others are.

 

Though I do agree that you should run out of the red circle as soon as you see it.

[Master-Nala]

I agree with this to a point. You shouldn't just stand in force storm. The two problems that can occur is when multiple sorcs are casting force storm or when one sorc just likes to follow you by recasting storm over and over. I don't really care about the latter example as they most likely aren't very good sorcs.

 

The problem I have with storm is that it is much better than other class soammable aoes. That is the imbalance with force storm. If other classes spammable aoes were as powerful than people wouldn't have a right to complain about force storm, but would have to complain about aoe in general. Problem is force storm is quite a bit more powerful than the others are.

 

Though I do agree that you should run out of the red circle as soon as you see it.

 

It is not appreciably better than Suppresive Fire or Sweeping Blasters except when used by Lightning Sorcs.

 

Which suggests that giving the power a +crit/surge buff as well as a base damage buff in utilities was imprudent.

[Saikochoro]

It is not appreciably better than Suppresive Fire or Sweeping Blasters except when used by Lightning Sorcs.

 

Which suggests that giving the power a +crit/surge buff as well as a base damage buff in utilities was imprudent.

 

That I agree with. Don't care too much about madness and corruption using it. I think they over buffed it for lightning. The base damage buff in utilities might be a bit too much as well.

[DrWeebs]

Sorcs are not broken.

 

The only broken OP class is hatred sin.

 

Buff mercs/marauders etc. up to the same level as sorcs/pt/jugg

 

Nerf hatred sins.

 

You'll have a pretty good game if you do that.

[AdrianDmitruk]

Sorcs are not broken.

 

The only broken OP class is hatred sin.

 

Buff mercs/marauders etc. up to the same level as sorcs/pt/jugg

 

Nerf hatred sins.

 

You'll have a pretty good game if you do that.

 

Only if you trust Bioware to not nerf hatred sins like they nerfed the slot machines.

 

Hatred needs a nerf but when I compare my definition of "nerf" to Bioware's I'm not entirely sure we should give them those ideas. Or hatred will end up losing death field, losing all access to utilities, losing crushing darkness (or whatever spec specific ability replaced it)...

 

...but hey they get to keep the creeping terror root!

 

(Full disclosure: I main a healer sorc and have since 1.1, though I also operative healed between 1.2 and 1.7. I do not have a hatred sin, but I do have a midbie deception sin whose only purpose is crafting.)

[Prototypemind]

Sorcs are not broken.

 

The only broken OP class is hatred sin.

 

Buff mercs/marauders etc. up to the same level as sorcs/pt/jugg

 

Nerf hatred sins.

 

You'll have a pretty good game if you do that.

 

I think that the damage reduction after hard bubble is a bit much for sorcs considering the roots and stuns already in place and their output and healing abilities. One thing, though, is that there's a huge difference between sorcs who manage what they have well and those who don't. Bad sorcs are still easy to pop and overall they really aren't in an unfair spot.

[DrWeebs]

I think that the damage reduction after hard bubble is a bit much for sorcs considering the roots and stuns already in place and their output and healing abilities. One thing, though, is that there's a huge difference between sorcs who manage what they have well and those who don't. Bad sorcs are still easy to pop and overall they really aren't in an unfair spot.

 

Even good ones are in a fair spot. Tunnel a sorc to force a barrier (pun intended), hard switch to someone else, then hard switch back and they're pretty much guaranteed dead. The light armor and lack of true DCD's other than small self-heals makes them by far the easiest class to burst down. In regular wz's they are a bit op because of the space, but in ranked they are fair.

[jenlen]

So, here's what we need to do about Sorcs, Bioware!

 

1. HP needs to be hard set to a maximum of 10,000 HP
   
2. Make Barrier only last 2 seconds, and Bubble only last 1 second
   
3. Make Force Storm do 5 points of damage to a maximum of 2 targets
   
4. Remove Force Speed
   
5. Set maximum range of all abilities to 5 meters
   

 

There, now Sorcs are "fair and balanced" as per all the whining from the "but I cannot kill them in 2 seconds now!" crowd!

[JadenYugari]

So, here's what we need to do about Sorcs, Bioware!

 

1. HP needs to be hard set to a maximum of 10,000 HP
   
2. Make Barrier only last 2 seconds, and Bubble only last 1 second
   
3. Make Force Storm do 5 points of damage to a maximum of 2 targets
   
4. Remove Force Speed
   
5. Set maximum range of all abilities to 5 meters
   

 

There, now Sorcs are "fair and balanced" as per all the whining from the "but I cannot kill them in 2 seconds now!" crowd!

Ok, Im not so overzealous in rebalancing some of Sorc/sage abilities like people saying the stuff you just posted, but......

Sorcs/Sages are supposed to be glass cannons/glass healers. They should have (and already have) high damage, but their team should also defend them. In an instant a sorcs/sage drops behind or his team stops babysitting him, he should pretty much be dead in a few seconds even if he pops all of his DCDs. You cannot have a class thats capable of going DPS spec, having access to heals for increased survivability, spammable bubles with CC included, god-mode and also one of the highest sustain + burst dps in the game.

Edited January 25, 2015 by JadenYugari

[Saikochoro]

Ok, Im not so overzealous in rebalancing some of Sorc/sage abilities like people saying the stuff you just posted, but......

Sorcs/Sages are supposed to be glass cannons/glass healers. They should have (and already have) high damage, but their team should also defend them. In an instant a sorcs/sage drops behind or his team stops babysitting him, he should pretty much be dead in a few seconds even if he pops all of his DCDs. You cannot have a class thats capable of going DPS spec, having access to heals for increased survivability, spammable bubles with CC included, god-mode and also one of the highest sustain + burst dps in the game.

 

I have been advocating some sorc nerfs, but I think one of your ststements is a bit overkill. Without their team the sorc still wont have much of a problem versus most classes if they are good at kiting. If they are being focus they should go down quick sure, but they shouldn't die in a couple seconds to 1 DPS when they have all their defenses up.

 

That doesn't happen now if the sorc has a half a brain. It didn't happen in the latter part of 2.x either. They only need a couple tweaks to the sum of all their tools and they will be okay. Mostly mobility needs to be brought down for lightning. Not completely, but they have too much mobility. And with everything else they have bastion is too powerful. Barrier should be an anti focus tool that gives the team long enough to come to their aid. It shouldn't also proc damage absorption and interrupt immunity. The healing utility for it is a bit much with bastion involved as well.

[Master-Nala]

Ok, Im not so overzealous in rebalancing some of Sorc/sage abilities like people saying the stuff you just posted, but......

Sorcs/Sages are supposed to be glass cannons/glass healers. They should have (and already have) high damage, but their team should also defend them. In an instant a sorcs/sage drops behind or his team stops babysitting him, he should pretty much be dead in a few seconds even if he pops all of his DCDs. You cannot have a class thats capable of going DPS spec, having access to heals for increased survivability, spammable bubles with CC included, god-mode and also one of the highest sustain + burst dps in the game.

 

That's ridiculous. Do you really understand what that would mean re: Sorcerer damage? Turbulence would have to do 20K damage. That is why games moved away from 'glass cannons.' You either have to give them obnoxious damage to compensate or no one would play them.

 

All DPS specs need to be around the same damage/survivability. Doesn't have to be identical, and certainly not mechanically the same, but it should be close enough so that no spec is a clear right or wrong answer.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Master-Nala

[AlrikFassbauer]

Without their team the sorc still wont have much of a problem versus most classes if they are good at kiting.

 

Personally - and I do emphasize this : it's my personal problem - I have always been against the Sage having to kite. It's just awful to me.

 

Remember that infamous Benny Hill video ? That'Äs not what I'd think of a Jedi to be : Constantly running away from their foes.

 

I just cannot imagine at all any "runner class" as a viable combat class. as a healer, maybe, but then the healer class is ONLY attractive to players who LIKE to play them - and that means : In PvE as well !

 

However, the Sage class also has combat trees / Disciples.

 

The "kiting class" acts like some weird sort of nimal :

Running away - stop & spit - running awyy - stop & spit - running awy - stop & spit - running away ...

This is "hit & run" in perfection, but as a "cannon" I'd expect something else than glass as the main cannon's material.

 

If ranged classes should be like that = "glass cannons", then, tell me, why do not exist "glass melee" classes ?

Oh, wait, we already have "glass melee" ... It's the Shadow ...

 

The opposite of that is, by the way, the Bounty Hunter and the Trooper : They are "heavy metal cannons", opposed to "glass cannons". They should be impossible to bring down. But, for balance's sake, they also should have an real disadvantage. Like, for example, not being able to give out too much damage. For being able to survive so much longer than glass canons (heavy metal cannons just don't need to kite).

 

But right now, balancing is so much borked right now ...

[Saikochoro]

Kiting is a necessity for ranged classes. Sorcs have awesome kiting tools and a lot of damage of the move. The damage on the move is my main issue. They should have some, but not as much as what lightning currently has. Shadow is definitely not the glass cannon melee class. Maras, ops, and pts are easier to kill. If the sin uses no defenses then yes they will go down fast. The trade off of ranged and melee traditionally has been less mobility and less tanking type defenses. That has been skewed. A couple examples: Lightning has too much mobility. AP and hatred have too much range.

[SithEater]

Ok, Im not so overzealous in rebalancing some of Sorc/sage abilities like people saying the stuff you just posted, but......

Sorcs/Sages are supposed to be glass cannons/glass healers. They should have (and already have) high damage, but their team should also defend them. In an instant a sorcs/sage drops behind or his team stops babysitting him, he should pretty much be dead in a few seconds even if he pops all of his DCDs. You cannot have a class thats capable of going DPS spec, having access to heals for increased survivability, spammable bubles with CC included, god-mode and also one of the highest sustain + burst dps in the game.

Bubbles are not spammable and are in fact on a 15 second cooldown, they are not the highest sustained nor are they the highest burst dps spec, the heals that can be done on the run are laughably small and if you are relying on them during burst then you are simply dead. The idea that if not being actively guarded and healed they should be able to be killed in seconds regardless of what they do is the sum total of 75% of peoples ideas on how Sage/Sorcs should be, ie WAAAHHH I WANT EASY KILLS /sniffle /pout.