Will raiding in MMOs one day be a thing of the past?

[Arkerus]

The constant march towards ezmode, spurred on by the 'everybody gets a medal' generation, has been the ruin of the MMO genre. That march will inevitably lead to free epics at log in at some point.

 

I miss a time when MMOs were actually difficult, and took cooperation and communication to get anything done. MMOs are nothing but massive single player games at this point.

 

Because they've made these games so easy, they have ruined the best thing about MMOs, and that is needing other people to get anything done.

 

Long live EQ at release, and before they ruined that game as well.

 

While I don't disagree today's generation has a habit of saying "hand it over to me because I am me", the idea that the OLD MMOs weren't grossly flawed is ignoring things staring you right in the face.

 

The reason you LIKE the older styles is because it was about you and the few handfuls of people that were basically God like on the server because you were the 20-40 people who could get organized enough to run end game. The harsh reality is that isn't a fun game for everyone else. Sure, raiding has gotten easier and more accessible but it doesn't stop you from getting a bunch of people together to tackle the hardest difficulty. The baseline is easier and more accessible to more people because that's how a business makes money. They need more accessibility to increase the bottom line.

 

Why did it work before? Well, partially it worked before because MMOs were largely experimental and the niche market they supported were quite literally, the only people interested. They didn't have the market to reach into. It wasn't until MMOs started to reach more gamers that companies realized there were large untapped markets.

 

Its cyclical. Do the games drive the market or does the market drive the games. Obviously its a little of both. The Wow developers realized about 1 year into Wow that 1000s of people weren't playing their game for the HARDCORE-OMG-THIS-IS-EPIC-EPEENOMETER end game. They were playing it because WoW was much easier to play and understand from the start. They stuck with it because the leveling process was much more engaging than other MMOs.

 

Back to my original point, early MMOs were fatally flawed because of several reasons (some being they crappy "games" in some aspects) but the biggest reason is that model was certainly not sustainable as development costs rose in the 2000s.

 

You can take off the rose colored glasses. If you feel so compelled, play games marketed to hardcore players and not mass appeal MMOs.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Arkerus

[Max_Killjoy]

How would the kids say it? "Such cybermacho, much epeen"? Edited December 25, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Andryah]

The constant march towards ezmode, spurred on by the 'everybody gets a medal' generation, has been the ruin of the MMO genre. That march will inevitably lead to free epics at log in at some point.

 

I miss a time when MMOs were actually difficult, and took cooperation and communication to get anything done. MMOs are nothing but massive single player games at this point.

 

Because they've made these games so easy, they have ruined the best thing about MMOs, and that is needing other people to get anything done.

 

Long live EQ at release, and before they ruined that game as well.

 

I think the recent release and plunge of Wildstar has pretty well validated that an MMO that put's it's main focus on end game raiding no longer thrives commercially in the MMO market space. Like it or not... it is what it is.

 

As an old time MMO player myself, I actually gave up raiding as a play style years ago after burning out on it in WoW, trying it again in Rift and realizing that it's done... it's a niche play and many avid raiders simply burned out on the raiding model years ago. Will there always be some who love the raiding aspect of an MMO? Yes. Will it matter commercially in the market? NO. The reasons (and there are many) really do not matter. The result is all that matters... a majority of players want less of it and more of other things more casual in their MMOs these days.

[LyraineAlei]

The constant march towards ezmode, spurred on by the 'everybody gets a medal' generation, has been the ruin of the MMO genre. That march will inevitably lead to free epics at log in at some point.

 

I miss a time when MMOs were actually difficult, and took cooperation and communication to get anything done. MMOs are nothing but massive single player games at this point.

 

Because they've made these games so easy, they have ruined the best thing about MMOs, and that is needing other people to get anything done.

 

Long live EQ at release, and before they ruined that game as well.

 

*cough* Not all of us in that generation you describe actually want those blasted medals because they devalue the medals of those who actually succeeded.

 

Anyway, I still see those hard raids that require team work and the like. In this game, they're Nightmare Modes. And I personally think every flashpoint should also have a nightmare mode as well to appease the challenge hunters.

 

Did they make "ezmodes"? Yes. To let more people try out raids. For every ten SM or [solo] player who goes into those, and just one goes on for HM, that's one more HM'er who might go on for NiM later.

 

I'm not saying that raids haven't gotten easier, they have. I'm just saying that the harder level of raids have gotten raised up higher, and the bar lowered to let more people in.

[Arkerus]

I think the recent release and plunge of Wildstar has pretty well validated that an MMO that put's it's main focus on end game raiding no longer thrives commercially in the MMO market space. Like it or not... it is what it is.

 

As an old time MMO player myself, I actually gave up raiding as a play style years ago after burning out on it in WoW, trying it again in Rift and realizing that it's done... it's a niche play and many avid raiders simply burned out on the raiding model years ago. Will there always be some who love the raiding aspect of an MMO? Yes. Will it matter commercially in the market? NO. The reasons (and there are many) really do not matter. The result is all that matters... a majority of players want less of it and more of other things more casual in their MMOs these days.

 

WoW raiding burned me out too. When it become more about the numbers instead of the game itself, I called it quits and moved to SWTOR.

[Csillagkari]

sandbox is the future! Themepark is an obsolete crap. And to be honest it was at the launch of swtor....

[MorgenBlue]

sandbox is the future! Themepark is an obsolete crap. And to be honest it was at the launch of swtor....

 

Sandbox games and raiding are completely different types of games. Both can be fun, both target a different type of audience.

Raiding will be around for a long time.

[Kalfear]

The constant march towards ezmode, spurred on by the 'everybody gets a medal' generation, has been the ruin of the MMO genre. That march will inevitably lead to free epics at log in at some point.

 

I miss a time when MMOs were actually difficult, and took cooperation and communication to get anything done. MMOs are nothing but massive single player games at this point.

 

Because they've made these games so easy, they have ruined the best thing about MMOs, and that is needing other people to get anything done.

 

Long live EQ at release, and before they ruined that game as well.

 

Agree fully

 

But I think your comment is far more accurate when used to describe MMORPGs in general really, rather then just about ops/raids.

 

I know Im already bored of the new expansion because I finished it in 16 hours (I took my time and did it as slow as possible). They could have made that expansion content last so much longer if they just designed it to offer minimal challenge (Easy setting in most single player games, right now its ULTRA easy mode).

 

Levels 55-60 should have taken me a month (playing 8 hours a day) or longer to obtain (making it meaningful and have value). Instead it took me 1.5 days (12 hours) and is completely and utterly meaningless.

 

As Ive said in other threads, I play single player games normally on no higher difficulty setting then normal setting and to be honest those feel like Ultra hard nightmare mode x 20 compared to recent difficulty settings of SW:TOR.

 

Makeb was always easy, so they make it even easier and faster

Flashpoints have all been dumbed down

heroics have been dumbed down

the only way they could make Yavin and Rishii easier is to remove all mobs and just grant xp for moving.

 

SW:TOR is trending in wrong direction challenge wise and the constant dumbing down will ultimately cost SWTOR its sub base and financial stability.

 

Dumbing down is NOT a solid long term plan

[Prototypemind]

I'll say, without both end game and PvP, I wouldn't be playing. End game more so, because it got me more engaged with my guild, and gave me something to work towards. If the MMO genre becomes single-player experience focused, I'll just go back to FPS and single player games and call it a day.

[Alucardess]

I personally would say Wildstar is a bad model for talking about the "Raiding MMO". Wildstar is very nearly a grind to level to max level and then from max level to raid ready. To even BE ABLE to do end-game, not even to optimize raid gear, you had to grind several random mobs that had a % chance of dropping the thing you needed + dungeon speed clears. The reason Wildstar died was not because of its hard raids (which I've heard described not as actually super duper hard, but more of relentless circles that you have to stand out of else you wipe), but because level of entry into the raids was so high, that very few people wanted to go through it. Keep in mind, people had to repeat the same process of killing random mobs for random drops and speed clearing dungeons under 4 minutes if they wanted to do their equivalent of SM and HM. And you had to do this for 10/20/40 people.

 

tl;dr People quit Wildstar not because people dislike heavy end-game raiding MMOs, people hate grindy games that bring nothing to the experience.

 

Now, in terms of end game raiding disappearing, I don't think that's ever going to happen. Raiding might evolve sure, but it won't disappear. If not for raiding, I probably would've quit the game a long time ago. No matter how good crafting/housing/minigames get, there will be people who will eventually quit because there is nothing that will challenge them in that game. I personally would've probably quit 1-2 months after GSH had new ops not come out.

[LordArtemis]

I think the recent release and plunge of Wildstar has pretty well validated that an MMO that put's it's main focus on end game raiding no longer thrives commercially in the MMO market space. Like it or not... it is what it is.

 

As an old time MMO player myself, I actually gave up raiding as a play style years ago after burning out on it in WoW, trying it again in Rift and realizing that it's done... it's a niche play and many avid raiders simply burned out on the raiding model years ago. Will there always be some who love the raiding aspect of an MMO? Yes. Will it matter commercially in the market? NO. The reasons (and there are many) really do not matter. The result is all that matters... a majority of players want less of it and more of other things more casual in their MMOs these days.

 

This. I agree that this is a reaction to the current market. Folks can lament the loss of game difficulty...I do as well, but it is the sign of the times.

 

MMOs are changing. For the better or worse is a matter of opinion, but I imagine it is the best direction for commercial success.

[Prototypemind]

This. I agree that this is a reaction to the current market. Folks can lament the loss of game difficulty...I do as well, but it is the sign of the times.

 

MMOs are changing. For the better or worse is a matter of opinion, but I imagine it is the best direction for commercial success.

 

I think you're being too black and white here. Yes, there are tactical FPs galore, and even Solo modes that are relatively easy as DPS, but SM Ravagers and ToS are beating the brakes off of many, and with the stat rollback, there are many pugs who still can't clear DF/DP with any regularity. There is very much a blend of content catering to all play styles, and that's a great thing.

[AAntan]

MMOs are changing. For the better or worse is a matter of opinion, but I imagine it is the best direction for commercial success.

 

In that case you should stop calling it an MMO and start calling it SP.

 

Did you notice how people complain about how quick this expansion burned out? It's because is so easy that you can clear it in 5 hours straight of gameplay with all the easy Solo FPs with GSI GodDroid and the huge amount of xp you get for clearing trash that doesn't really deliver any challange (only challange is an unintended bug with silver mobs).

 

If this is the way MMO games are moving to, EA+Bioware should stop charging subscription then, because it's dumb to charge money for a "Soon to be a SP game"... Would you like to be charged $15/month to play Skyrim? I'm sure you won't. Not to mention the money we all threw when this game came out +3 years straight of sub + expacs + CM (some people). That's around +10 triple A games like CoD, Battlefield, ES, etc. (some include masssive SP and MP for all kinds of players and you pay once for full game and once for every expac).

 

I can understand that a lot of people wanted a KotOR 3 (So did I), but I didn't expect this game to be KotOR 3 because the series were made based on SP... this is a MMO and should be treated as such. Just because EA+Bioware made grinding nice by adding story, it doesn't mean it was the main focus of this game... it was just a way to make great use of Bioware's talent on story telling to make grind less boring and endgame a bit more intriging. Bottom line, just because a game has stories doesn't/shouldn't turn into SP.

 

If all endgame content such as raids are turned into "solo mode"... what would be next? Make stuff that made NiM raiders work incredibly hard (mounts, titles, etc.) easily accesible to people that can't even group with friends because reasons? Start dumbing down stuff even more because it's "hard to adapt"? AI for PvP and GSF? Single instances for every single player because they don't want to share their sandbox?

 

Think about it.

[LordArtemis]

I have thought about it.

 

I am from the days of permadeath and player looting. I loved playing MMOs back then, at the dawn of the industry, and it still holds a special place in my memories.

 

When they started to move away from this I almost walked away from the genre, but decided instead to adapt.

 

Then there was another big move....the dawn of themeparks, groupfinder, dailies, the removal of attunement, etc. Again, I was resistant. I loved the difficulty of sandbox play, and then when i moved to themeparks I really liked the requirement to work toward raiding. Again, there was change and I didn't like it.

 

I adapted again.

 

Now the market is changing YET AGAIN. I can choose to resist, or simply choose to adapt. I choose the latter. If I want to play MMOs, this is the reality. Otherwise I can walk away at any time.

[AAntan]

Now the market is changing YET AGAIN. I can choose to resist, or simply choose to adapt. I choose the latter. If I want to play MMOs, this is the reality. Otherwise I can walk away at any time.

 

Sadly, on this game, there's a thin line between adapting to changes and let the game genre change completely. And this expac is the best example... it's between SP and MMO, but falling more into SP category by making players forget about the aspect of gather forces to achieve a common goal.

 

Now it's like... Anyone want to group? And you get replies like "lol why group when you can solo it?"

Edited December 26, 2014 by AAntan

[LyraineAlei]

Sadly, on this game, there's a thin line between adapting to changes and let the game genre change completely. And this expac is the best example... it's between SP and MMO, but falling more into SP category by making players forget about the aspect of gather forces to achieve a common goal.

 

Now it's like... Anyone want to group? And you get replies like "lol why group when you can solo it?"

 

Right now, if you say "LV60 LFG FA SM [role here], need x more" people won't bring up the solo. Or the Manaan one, same deal. Yes, you will get people telling you about GSI droid, but if you are level 60 already, you will more likely get a group to run with you.

[Kulyok]

If people want raiding, I don't see why it should disappear. But I think of myself more of a casual solo player, and I want to experience all content as a solo player. I think solo flashpoints and solo Revan missions are a good step towards that direction(and it would be great if people could see the beautiful visuals of TfB and SnV solo). During a solo flashpoint I'm not as nearly stressed out as I am during a normal flashpoint or an operation, I'm comfortable, I'm enjoying the game, and I want to play more.

[Pantokratorx]

Actually I wouldnt mind if the current raiding was a thing of the past. I did my fair share of raiding in WoW and some even in SWTOR. What I dont like in raiding anymore is after you had done it for a couple years, the mechanics, the bosses were all the same. Stand out of this circle, stand in that one, slow phase, burst phase, adds phase etc... Im just tired of this and I would only raid with friends now for the social part, but on normal mode because we rather mess around and talk while doing it than stress over mechanics, OR if they introduced some new raiding system that changes the whole dynamic of boss killing and progression (gear grinding I also find tiresome in PvE, when you just change the gear next tier and you dont even know if your desired piece drops or not). Raiding needs new mechanics and system to keep the players who have done it for years. Every time I go into a raid instance, it gets boring fast now, because "we have been there, we have done that". If raiding changed, I would gladly go hardcore again, but this way I'd rather queue up for WZ where I play against other player (=constantly changing environment, skill goes against skill) than play the same old "lets stand here and there" game. I wouldnt mind if raiding ceased to exist in this form, but I would also be very happy if they changed it and came up with something thats refreshing and new in terms of "PvE endgame". Edited December 26, 2014 by Pantokratorx

[well]

I agree with you .

 

We went from MMOs that you could literally do nothing solo but grab the quest but you needed people to do them , to now being able to solo a 3rd of the game and not be hindered by leveling outside of group play .

 

You do not need to do FlashPoints or Operations in this game . You can completely live without them . That is sad .

 

Sad to you. I play the game the way I want to. See no one pays my sub even though some think it is their Pet Rock given right to determine how others are suppose to play. If you want social interaction there is a thing called General Chat. Have at it.

[LanceCorporalDan]

Sadly, on this game, there's a thin line between adapting to changes and let the game genre change completely. And this expac is the best example... it's between SP and MMO, but falling more into SP category by making players forget about the aspect of gather forces to achieve a common goal.

 

Now it's like... Anyone want to group? And you get replies like "lol why group when you can solo it?"

 

And this is sad because?

 

If it brings more enjoyment to the game to a larger group of players then I would feel this would be a good thing. And in my opinion, enjoyment of the game should be a larger goal than gating a fraction of the content. Leaving the enjoyment to a much smaller target audience.

Edited December 26, 2014 by LanceCorporalDan

[AAntan]

And this is sad because?

 

If it brings more enjoyment to the game to a larger group of players then I would feel this would be a good thing. And in my opinion, enjoyment of the game should be a larger goal than gating a fraction of the content. Leaving the enjoyment to a much smaller target audience.

 

It's hard to say that you are bringing more enjoyment to a larger audience since forums only show a vocal minority all the time... I don't know if solo players are more/less abundant than group players, nowadays you can still see 4,5 ops groups looking for 1 more player, groups for quests like heroics and FPs where none of those players come here to post anything.

 

The problem is, if this game is turning into solo mode/group mode thingy to later be just a solo mode game... Why call it MMO? Why charge sub for a SP game? Why not stop it and make a way better SP game to actually deliver instead of a weird hybrid?

Edited December 26, 2014 by AAntan

[LanceCorporalDan]

It's hard to say that you are bringing more enjoyment to a larger audience since forums only show a vocal minority all the time... I don't know if solo players are more/less abundant than group players, nowadays you can still see 4,5 ops groups looking for 1 more player, groups for quests like heroics and FPs where none of those players come here to post anything.

 

The problem is, if this game is turning into solo mode/group mode thingy to later be just a solo mode game... Why call it MMO? Why charge sub for a SP game? Why not stop it and make a way better SP game to actually deliver instead of a weird hybrid?

 

While that may be true in the lack of actual data we have to compare findings/points of view. My line of thinking is that there are players who enjoy strictly solo, strictly group, and a mixture of the two in their gameplay. With that being said, why limit the content of a story driven game behind groups? When I said "larger audience", I was not entirely referring to solo players alone. But players who would have more ease and desire to experience the story content at their own leisure... being that opening the door to story content to be solable, allows for everyone (my "larger audience" term ) to enjoy it. Rather than a select few that have the time/gear/skill etc. to do a raid or other grouped content for it.

 

If there are those who would wish to go through a more challenging aspect of this content, then by all means they should be allowed to do so.

 

 

 

With regards to this being an MMO. It is my opinion that MMOs should facilitate group play, not force it.

 

This however can be altered to suite your target audience with respect to who the game was made for. It is also simply my opinion that due to the vast popularity of the Star Wars franchise, that this game was made to be enjoyed by all.

 

EDIT: I am not in any way saying that the soloable content should yield the same rewards as group content. I am a supporter of effort = reward. But with this being a story driven game, it is also my belief that it should be open to all to experience at their leisure.

Edited December 26, 2014 by LanceCorporalDan

[AAntan]

I never said story content should be bound to group content (something that was bad on Ilum, got pointed out on Oricon and became worse with FA Series). What I don't like is the fact that stuff like EV, KP, EC, etc. (that have nothing to do with the main story line or your class quest) are now target of players to become solo content because some FPs suddenly became solo content.

 

Most ops and FPs on this game (with exceptions that I mentioned above) are made with the intention, even the npcs say it, of gather forces to help your side get a small advantage (one that you never see on the main story), and it's that small hook that doesn't really "force" group play but actually tries to introduce you to the main idea of MMO games... showing you that, as much as you dislike it, you are not an army by your own... and like any other human on RL, you will need help eventually to achieve something.

[LanceCorporalDan]

I never said story content should be bound to group content (something that was bad on Ilum, got pointed out on Oricon and became worse with FA Series). What I don't like is the fact that stuff like EV, KP, EC, etc. (that have nothing to do with the main story line or your class quest) are now target of players to become solo content because some FPs suddenly became solo content.

 

Most ops and FPs on this game (with exceptions that I mentioned above) are made with the intention, even the npcs say it, of gather forces to help your side get a small advantage (one that you never see on the main story), and it's that small hook that doesn't really "force" group play but actually tries to introduce you to the main idea of MMO games... showing you that, as much as you dislike it, you are not an army by your own... and like any other human on RL, you will need help eventually to achieve something.

 

I can agree on those points to introduce players to another part of the game. My main argument is that I see no problem with making ops soloable so long as the rewards reflect the effort. No endgame gear for solo content and the like. I would like players to have the option to experience the story content of this game (which has the best storylines I've seen in some time in an MMO) on their own terms. Without the requirement of larger groups.

[Kalfear]

With regards to this being an MMO. It is my opinion that MMOs should facilitate group play, not force it.

 

.

 

EXACTLY

100% correct Lance

 

MMORPGs (I always put the RPG part in as to many new and modern players forget these are still RPGs at their base design) should promote group play but allow (if you good enough to work it out) solo play.

 

Solo play in a MMORPG should offer up a serious challenge to players that many players will CHOOSE to take advantage of group play.

 

And that is where modern day MMORPGs (and specifically SW:TOR) have failed outright. And that failure can be tied to their declining financial stability.

 

Everyone keeps yammering about things they have no clue about and saying "but WOW did it so .....". WOW is a one off exception of the rule. If copying WOW was such a guarenteed home run, there would be endless amounts of game with 10-20 million subscribers currently. There is not because WOW is the EXCEPTION to the rule, not the rule when designing MMORPGs.

 

Now some posters can congratulate themselves and delude themselves into thinking they are "adapting with the times" and "changing with the times". Its a load of donkey dodo. All they are doing is selling out to the latest fad/trend rather then seriously thinking out the long term problem.

 

Some like to throw out references (false references I might add) about how the genre started with perma death and forced grouping. That's a falsehood at best and a uneducated lie at worst. Early MMORPGs actually understood the balance between allowing solo play and promoting group play. Wasn't until EQ (and even that was post level 20) that perma grouping became a reality. But EQ was NOT the first or 2nd MMORPG made, far from it. EQ was how ever the MMORPG that influenced the next generation of MMORPGs.

 

MMORPGs need to promote group play, even encourage group play, while allowing solo play to those players who wish to work it out (IE: It should be a very large challenge for a player to solo everything, huge challenge. Doable sure, but very difficult).

 

In latest expansion I can run through Rishii and Yavin on my commando only attacking with hammer shot and nothing else. With exception of champions and couple elites I need NEVER use any other attack.

 

Why even have me do the content if its going to be that easy?

 

But here's the kicker and the part that sucks for SW:TOR

 

Now they made it that easy the mindless "bleep" that have "adapted and changed" will scream to bloody hell and high water if in the future any challenge is put back in, in any part of game.

 

You see it already with the whine posts about NEEDING (their words, not mine) 12x XP back in.

 

Which means EA damned if they do and damned if they don't now.

They have set the bar so low now that raising it back up will massively tick off the no minds that love no challenge settings.

 

This industry since WOW (WOW being the exception ) has been doing a slow death spiral downwards and its going to keep doing it until someone finally breaks free of the WOW design and puts challenge, content, design, and other MMORPG concepts back into the genre. Stop designing for the lowest common denominator and re establish core MMORPG designs and concepts back into the games. Where community, socialization, interaction are required and promoted.

 

PS: I want SW:TOR to go more Single player now, not because I delude myself that Ive adapted and changed with the times (such a load of horse bleep claim) but because I dont think SW:TOR can recover now as a MMORPG. Its gone to far down the solo player road that reverting would kill it dead. Going solo will also kill it dead, just at a slower pace.

 

But solo doesnt mean it has to be so insultingly easy as its also trending.