The Rich get richer 3.0: Guardian + Juggernaut

[chosonman]

....and the rich get richer. Lovely

 

New root ability with saber throw and 50% speed burst and immunity from movement impairing affects.

 

http://www.swtor.com/info/news/blog/20141120

 

whereas Sentinels lose crippling throw, lose riposte, and lose cauterize...

Edited November 20, 2014 by chosonman

[azudelphi]

Was this really necessary as its own post? Why not just put "The rich get richer" on the sticky thread.

 

Also, it basically mirrors the exact changes to sentinels... so even that is a stretch.

Edited November 20, 2014 by azudelphi

[chosonman]

Was this really necessary as its own post? Why not just put "The rich get richer" on the sticky thread.

 

Also, it basically mirrors the exact changes to sentinels... so even that is a stretch.

 

Sentinels get a root from dual saber throw, 50% speed boost and immunity from movement affects? I must have missed that.

Edited November 20, 2014 by chosonman

[azudelphi]

Sentinels get a root from dual saber throw, 50% speed boost and immunity from movement affects? I must have missed that.

 

Well, they have Leg Slash which can be cheaper, is a Trauma, is a Slow, and on second cast a Root.

 

Force Camo is now a self-cleanse.

 

Not identical, but mirrored.

 

Edit: And it's a preview, don't even know the rest of the utilities and abilities. I am calling out a haste to QQ.

Edited November 20, 2014 by azudelphi

[chosonman]

Force camo self cleanse is a great idea ...... IF DoT's were cleansable. Edited November 20, 2014 by chosonman

[azudelphi]

Force camo self cleanse is a great idea ...... IF DoT's were cleansable.

 

Guess what are cleansable... movement impairing effects.

 

BOOM! It's a mirror!

[chosonman]

Guess what are cleansable... movement impairing effects.

 

BOOM! It's a mirror!

 

Sentinels already have that now so it's nothing new.

Edited November 20, 2014 by chosonman

[azudelphi]

Sentinels already have that now so it's nothing new.

 

Well, combat sentinels had it. Now all disciplines can use it; not "new" but it is changed in terms of accessibility.

 

The point is that both have something that helps them for similar situations. It looks balanced at first glance; of course going to wait to the live stream to determine it for sure.

[Ryuku-sama]

Well, they have Leg Slash which can be cheaper, is a Trauma, is a Slow, and on second cast a Root.

 

Force Camo is now a self-cleanse.

 

Not identical, but mirrored.

 

Edit: And it's a preview, don't even know the rest of the utilities and abilities. I am calling out a haste to QQ.

 

So you want to spend 3 sec to root your target for the next GCD?????? Wasting two GCD's to get one under root?? So much useful.

[azudelphi]

So you want to spend 3 sec to root your target for the next GCD?????? Wasting two GCD's to get one under root?? So much useful.

 

Well, to be fair, 2 GCD's should be < 2 seconds. Not even saying it's the most useful. But without seeing the whole picture it may be that (for example) dual saber throw or force leap can apply the slow as well, making the Leg Slash the root...

 

So a typical engage could be: DST, Force leap, Leg Slash... all in just under 3 seconds.

 

I am not sure since, as I have said, I haven't seen the entire picture yet... just a snip.

[Ryuku-sama]

Well, to be fair, 2 GCD's should be < 2 seconds. Not even saying it's the most useful. But without seeing the whole picture it may be that (for example) dual saber throw or force leap can apply the slow as well, making the Leg Slash the root...

 

So a typical engage could be: DST, Force leap, Leg Slash... all in just under 3 seconds.

 

I am not sure since, as I have said, I haven't seen the entire picture yet... just a snip.

 

GCD = 1.5s

 

Maybe you're right about the slow/root effect tho. Now we just need to know if the effect will be affected by alacrity.

[K_osss]

Well, to be fair, 2 GCD's should be < 2 seconds. Not even saying it's the most useful. But without seeing the whole picture it may be that (for example) dual saber throw or force leap can apply the slow as well, making the Leg Slash the root...

 

So a typical engage could be: DST, Force leap, Leg Slash... all in just under 3 seconds.

 

I am not sure since, as I have said, I haven't seen the entire picture yet... just a snip.

 

Pretty sure it says when crippling slash is used on a target affected by crippling slash it's a root. Not on a target that's slowed by other abilities. And it'll be 3 seconds at launch - no one has alacrity. And I don't want to be forced to stack alacrity so i can use the same ability 2x in order to root a target. That's stupid.

[Sorwen]

Actually, it continues to show how PvE is getting messed over for a PvP focused change. You already saw this in many of the other class changes, but it becomes more evident here. Not to mention that Riposte only benefit was that it wasn't on the global cooldown. Taunt and Challenging call can now miss as if we didn't have enough problems with keeping aggro to actually tank groups. Add to the less damage which means it is going to be that much harder to keep aggro. The threat generation bonus to Sweep while in Soresu form is only going to matter if you continually hit.

 

They better be adding more accuracy/defense and accuracy/shield options to gear. Though I get the feeling they will not really touch gear for any of the classes leaving big holes in peoples ability to level. We still have useless repeat mods from Beta still hanging around.

 

And I love how they said see the Sentinel blog about base class changes. It is like the forgot or didn't care that the blog doesn't talk about the base class change other than Riposte.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Sorwen

[ToMyMa]

Guys, don't bother with this guy.

 

If you took a look at his post history, you'd know that about 2-3 (maybe 4 if memory serves right), he complained about sentinels being the worst class.

 

He's a cronic sentinel complainer. 'Nuff said.

[Brewski]

Actually, it continues to show how PvE is getting messed over for a PvP focused change. You already saw this in many of the other class changes, but it becomes more evident here. Not to mention that Riposte only benefit was that it wasn't on the global cooldown. Taunt and Challenging call can now miss as if we didn't have enough problems with keeping aggro to actually tank groups. Add to the less damage which means it is going to be that much harder to keep aggro. The threat generation bonus to Sweep while in Soresu form is only going to matter if you continually hit.

 

They better be adding more accuracy/defense and accuracy/shield options to gear. Though I get the feeling they will not really touch gear for any of the classes leaving big holes in peoples ability to level. We still have useless repeat mods from Beta still hanging around.

 

And I love how they said see the Sentinel blog about base class changes. It is like the forgot or didn't care that the blog doesn't talk about the base class change other than Riposte.

Tanking Guardians get an inherent 10% accuracy boost in their defensive form. They won't miss taunts or attacks. The chance to miss really only affects DPS Guardians, who will need to stack accuracy, which they do any way.

 

I don't see how that's going to affect end game anything. The chance to miss will really only matter to leveling or non-optimized players at the end game.

 

Unless I'm missing something there?

[chosonman]

Guys, don't bother with this guy.

 

If you took a look at his post history, you'd know that about 2-3 (maybe 4 if memory serves right), he complained about sentinels being the worst class.

 

He's a cronic sentinel complainer. 'Nuff said.

 

Yea me along with the 100's of other posts from other players who said the same thing.. oh wait they were all from me using different accounts. You really got me pegged... Good job. Go find somewhere else to troll.

Edited November 20, 2014 by chosonman

[Santonius]

Just so you guys know, Force Camo will serve as a "purge" ability, much like Force Shroud and Evasion for Assassins, and Agents, respectively.

[Sorwen]

Tanking Guardians get an inherent 10% accuracy boost in their defensive form. They won't miss taunts or attacks. The chance to miss really only affects DPS Guardians, who will need to stack accuracy, which they do any way.

 

I don't see how that's going to affect end game anything. The chance to miss will really only matter to leveling or non-optimized players at the end game.

 

Unless I'm missing something there?

I'm trying to see where you getting the logic(please don't listen to EaWare there) that 10% accuracy is all it takes to insure a hit. If that was it then there wouldn't be any need for any class to "stack" accuracy for anything because you can you can fairly eailsy generate 10% on other gear. Unless I'm missing something the hard part is generating accuracy on defense gear because they didn't need it as much. It is almost always on damage gear that I've seen.

 

The most that 10% is going to do is make sure you can hit for aggro equal level trash mobs. It isn't going to be enough to insure hits on silvers, golds, and champions. With Challenging Call already being on too long of a cooldown so if you do miss or if you have one stun your character and all your aggro drops? Good luck trying insure you are going to pull them off the healer or DPS on top of loosing 10% damage(not big on its own, but big because how aggro works). Really you have to insure two hits because Taunt and Challenging Call lost their inherit ability to aggro on their own a long time ago. It requires follow up damage for you to actually generate any aggro from them.

 

There is a reason that Guardians already have a joke time in keeping aggro and people prefer Trooper for many fights since they have better AoEs to keep aggro with.

[azudelphi]

I'm trying to see where you getting the logic(please don't listen to EaWare there) that 10% accuracy is all it takes to insure a hit. If that was it then there wouldn't be any need for any class to "stack" accuracy for anything because you can you can fairly eailsy generate 10% on other gear. Unless I'm missing something the hard part is generating accuracy on defense gear because they didn't need it as much. It is almost always on damage gear that I've seen.

 

The most that 10% is going to do is make sure you can hit for aggro equal level trash mobs. It isn't going to be enough to insure hits on silvers, golds, and champions. With Challenging Call already being on too long of a cooldown so if you do miss or if you have one stun your character and all your aggro drops? Good luck trying insure you are going to pull them off the healer or DPS on top of loosing 10% damage(not big on its own, but big because how aggro works). Really you have to insure two hits because Taunt and Challenging Call lost their inherit ability to aggro on their own a long time ago. It requires follow up damage for you to actually generate any aggro from them.

 

There is a reason that Guardians already have a joke time in keeping aggro and people prefer Trooper for many fights since they have better AoEs to keep aggro with.

 

Look at a few parses, players with 110% force and tech accuracy never see force and tech attacks resisted or miss on targets without defensives active.

 

That's not "EaWare", that's empirical evidence.

 

Edit: And since Taunts are Force / Tech attacks, they won't miss or be resisted.

Edited November 20, 2014 by azudelphi

[ToMyMa]

Yea me along with the 100's of other posts from other players who said the same thing.. oh wait they were all from me using different accounts. You really got me pegged... Good job. Go find somewhere else to troll.

 

It's funny how your last sentence can be applied to you, too

[teclado]

Was this really necessary as its own post? Why not just put "The rich get richer" on the sticky thread.

 

Also, it basically mirrors the exact changes to sentinels... so even that is a stretch.

I agree that another thread was unnecessary, but vigilance guardian >>>>>>>> combat sentinel in pvp. That was before 3.0. Now it's going to be worse. Combat sentinels are losing their 10m crippling throw root (leg slash is 4m), guardians are acquiring a 30m root with sabre throw. Enure gets the added perk of becoming hydraulic overrides. Guardians can activate focused defense while stunned and heal to full, sentinels can activate guarded by the force (not while stunned) and then lose half their health. Guardians get an uninterruptible master strike and CC immunity from unremitting, sentinels do not. The only way that they are mirrored is that sentinels are a broken mirror.

 

Sentinels will still be pretty sweet for pve (high damage vs predictable NPC opponents), but pvp sentinels...not so much.

[Ryuku-sama]

Just so you guys know, Force Camo will serve as a "purge" ability, much like Force Shroud and Evasion for Assassins, and Agents, respectively.

 

The wording is 'cleansable effects'. Players' DoTs aren,t cleansable anymore in 3.0.

[Levram]

I'm trying to see where you getting the logic(please don't listen to EaWare there) that 10% accuracy is all it takes to insure a hit. If that was it then there wouldn't be any need for any class to "stack" accuracy for anything because you can you can fairly eailsy generate 10% on other gear. Unless I'm missing something the hard part is generating accuracy on defense gear because they didn't need it as much. It is almost always on damage gear that I've seen.

 

There is no current operation content in the game where a boss or mob has greater than a 10% buff to their Defense chance. With tanks in 3.0 getting a free 10% boost to their Accuracy from simply being in tank stance, they will have 110% Force/Tech Accuracy with zero Accuracy rating on their gear and every taunt they do will perform exactly as it does now.

Add to the less damage which means it is going to be that much harder to keep aggro. The threat generation bonus to Sweep while in Soresu form is only going to matter if you continually hit.

 

With tanks simply being given 100% Melee/Ranged Accuracy and 110% Force/Tech Accuracy, it will actually be easier than ever to hold aggro as a tank in 3.0, the opposite of what you predict.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Levram

[Elusive_Thing]

The wording is 'cleansable effects'. Players' DoTs aren,t cleansable anymore in 3.0.

Force Shroud says 'removable effects' as well, but it works against the current uncleansable DoT's just fine. The wordings are marginally different, but I'd wager Camo will work against DoT's.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Elusive_Thing

[Ryuku-sama]

Force Shroud says 'removable effects' as well, but it works against the current uncleansable DoT's just fine. The wordings are marginally different, but I'd wager Camo will work against DoT's.

 

DoT's can be removed. DoT's can't be cleansed.

 

EDIT : DoT's here means player DoT's