Lazy, Unskilled, or just Jerks? Which is it BioWare?

[DeLaaNie]

Hehe... yeah.. and... you learned a lesson too... right? like scout new territory before you speed through in cavalier manner.

 

Screw that...

 

YIPEE KAYAY MOTH*expletive deleted*

 

*dead*

 

QQ

[LordArtemis]

I disagree.

 

Do we really need the game sooooo dumbed down that there is no possible hazard in the environment we play in? Really? Are we that helpless as a player community that we need everything policed and defanged so that we do not have to think, scout, plan as we move through brand new territory? And if it's not brand new territory (ie: your Nth character... then you already know the hazards) you already know it's there and can easily go around it.

 

Now.. IF they forced you to travel through enemy bases.. I would agree that needs fixing. But they don't. All you need is some situational awareness and use your eyes, then go around anything you don't want to deal with.... like every other hazardous thing on any planet in the game.

 

I can see your point....interesting bonus to the danger factor as a side consequence to a particular design "flaw", if it could be called that.

 

All I would say is this...though I agree that having an element of danger, especially with a surprise quotient is interesting and would likely be appealing to some, I would assume, overall, this is more of an annoyance to others.

 

It is worthy of note that death from something like this around those level ranges does not hurt you badly as far as repair costs are concerned. And, naturally, later on you know better.

 

But in the case of Belsavis, it's not just the issue of routing you past dangerous points....it is also the issue that the mission plotter becomes confused, has trouble plotting your mission path properly because the terrain is pretty complicated on that planet.

 

At any rate I would welcome a refinement or a rebuild of the current mission plotting system. I do, however, understand the appeal to some perhaps.

 

IMO the annoyance far outweighs any small perks it may provide.

[Malastare]

A new player is not aware that their routing system is flawed.

 

A new player is still expected to read the map, pay attention to their surroundings, and think before blindly acting. If they see an Imperial outpost in their path, it should be reasonable to expect them to seek another route. The Tatooine planet quest puts a quest objective right next to a Republic base. We don't have loads of people whining about that quest. They see the base, and find a safe path to approach. There are no places on the map where you enter a pathfinder-marked door/passage/threshold and immediately find yourself in an other-faction base. In all cases, you get some strong indications that you are approaching a faction base, and have the opportunity to turn around and find a different path.

 

While the sheer number of adopting the strategy of "I don't play the game, I let YouTube tell me what to do" lends some weight to your argument, I don't see any desire to cater to that mentality. The pathfinder shows you the shortest path from where you are. It's not a bug. It's not laziness. No one is a jerk for expecting you to pay attention to where you are going.

 

There are plenty of situations in the game where normal questing gives you the opportunity (or even forces you) to cross into enemy territory. This appears completely intentional. If you haven't found out that you should be wary of the pathfinder when you're in enemy territory, then I think a couple deaths is a pretty good (and painless) way to learn.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Malastare

[Vandicus]

The guidance system could definitely be improved, aside from directing players into enemy bases, on certain maps with lots of dead-ends(Corellia) it can't really be considered a guidance system so much as a simply end goal marker.

 

Its probably not terribly easy to refine(currently it seems to check against the closest map changing exit/entrance), but they might be able to resolve the issue simply by adjusting the parameters for Republic and Imperial maps so that they don't consider entrances and exits in certain locations(opposite faction bases) as valid answers to the "quickest route from A to B" gps.

 

*EDIT

 

Even if you don't die by walking into the base, its still incredibly time consuming to find out you've gone the wrong way. Dying might very well be the best way to reach the next location at that point because you've wandered terribly far off-course.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Vandicus

[LordArtemis]

To be fair, the map is almost impossible to read when you first arrive on the planet. There is no way, IMO, that a player fresh to the planet would know that many of the paths are tied specifically to faction. Same thing happens on Makeb now that I think of it.

[Thoronmir]

I agree with the OP. The developers are clearly lazy, incompetent, or outright malicious in not adding an instant-travel option in the map/mission interface. I don't want to have to figure out a planet along the way. Just have the system auto-fill my map and let me teleport to mission locations by right-clicking the mission in my log. If they want to charge the equivalent of a speeder taxi, fine. If they enforce a "Hey, we don't want you to play too fast in this game which is why we make so many planets labyrinths" five-minute loading screen, fine. But it's not my job to pay attention to my surroundings! They get paid to do that for me!

 

/sarcasm

 

I'm gonna take a shower now

[HammerOneOne]

After all this time, why does your game's quest system still continue to direct players through enemy checkpoints or outposts?

 

Are your people to lazy too correct it and direct players through their own factions checkpoints?

Do they lack the skill to change it?

Are you purposely directing people the wrong direction to confuse them or kill them?

 

Maybe it's a time consuming fix for a minor issue?

[Tomb-Stone]

Maybe it's intended to add an element of danger and risk? Edited November 11, 2014 by Tomb-Stone

[NYYankee]

I've had this happen to me a few times. I'm traveling along, not paying attention, and all of a sudden I'm laying on my back and being asked where I want to revive. I learned pretty quick that the game points me to the most direct path, not the best path. When I die this way, I usually feel embarrassed that I drove right towards the large enemy faction flags and the big shiny turrets/droids. I've never felt angry at the game.

 

I feel that part of the game is exploring the area and learning the maps. This allows the player to take shortcuts and avoid dangerous areas (e.g. heroic areas, enemy bases). I like the fact that one must learn and know the lay of the land in order to be most efficient.

 

At its worst, this issue will cost 2-3 minutes max if one dies and then has to go the long way around. IMO, calling Bioware "lazy, unskilled, or just jerks" is unnecessarily rude. I realize this is the internet, but one thing to keep in mind is that the manner in which one airs a grievance can reveal as much about his/her own character as it does the accused.

[LordArtemis]

It might actually be a difficult task to fix this issue. The two times an issue like this popped up in our office the coders were not able to find a solution.

 

In one case the option was completely removed. In another we had to look for outside help to fix it.

[Vandicus]

Maybe it's intended to add an element of danger and risk?

 

The maps as currently designed seem meant to encourage exploration. At risk of inaccurately marginalizing our random exploration lovers(which is different from simply enjoying exploration in general), a themepark game like SWTOR will likely have a player base that'd prefer the convenience of good maps over the excitement of wandering into random quest zones, bases, dead ends, and heroic areas.

[Thoronmir]

I've had this happen to me a few times. I'm traveling along, not paying attention, and all of a sudden I'm laying on my back and being asked where I want to revive. I learned pretty quick that the game points me to the most direct path, not the best path. When I die this way, I usually feel embarrassed that I drove right towards the large enemy faction flags and the big shiny turrets/droids. I've never felt angry at the game.

 

I feel that part of the game is exploring the area and learning the maps. This allows the player to take shortcuts and avoid dangerous areas (e.g. heroic areas, enemy bases). I like the fact that one must learn and know the lay of the land in order to be most efficient.

 

At its worst, this issue will cost 2-3 minutes max if one dies and then has to go the long way around. IMO, calling Bioware "lazy, unskilled, or just jerks" is unnecessarily rude. I realize this is the internet, but one thing to keep in mind is that the manner in which one airs a grievance can reveal as much about his/her own character as it does the accused.

My earlier "modest proposal" aside, I agree with all this. For me, one of the best parts of any game is exploring ... filling the map, getting all the stables/taxis, completing all the exploration/location lore. Even in the current maelstrom of 12x XP, I make time to fill the maps on all my alts (for the record, you do not have to actually enter an enemy's camp to get the map/location ... you can almost always find a safe spot near the camp that will trigger the location without risking death or ... worse ... getting flagged).

 

I groused at myself whenever I strayed into hostile lands and woke up at the medical droid. But like Yankee said, I was always only mad at myself. Never the game.

[robertthebard]

Just as a funny anecdote to something that happened to me on Corellia once:

 

I was zipping around looking for Big Red on my Assassin, after completing the GSI missions on my Shadow, and decided to run just run to the taxi and fly to another location. I was half way through the outpost before I realized I wasn't on my Shadow any more, and that I was in a Republic base. I took the guards and turrets so much by surprise that I actually managed to drive all the way through it and was just about out of range before the first turret started shooting, and by then, I'd gotten away. I can see the dialog between the NPCs now: Did you see that stupid Sith ride through here?

[wainot-keel]

The worst offender of this, by far, is Vette's personal mission on Tatooine. You literally need to go three doors down from the Mos Illa spaceport but the quest marker shows you need to go all the way to Achorhead (a republic outpost on the compete opposite side of the map, mind you!). I understand pathfinding and sending you the 'shortest' route but that one is just silly.

 

 

hmmm

 

I played a mara and a jugg during this 12x and both of them got through all Vette's quests and convos and didn't have this problem. I think the green marker thingy can go crazy if you go to the planet directly from your stronghold instead of the "expected" path of ship/station/spaceport.

[MillionsKNives]

I'm not going to insult the devs for this, but I do think it would be an improvement if they changed the system to avoid using opposite faction bases as a part of your suggested route. It's a lot like using a GPS and having it constantly try to send you the wrong way down one-way streets or into construction zones that you can't actually go through. Sure, you could explore and find a way around, but isn't that what the GPS is for in the first place? To tell you which way to go.

 

For the indicator on the taxi menu it appears that it only looks for the closest taxi point to the zone your quest marker is in, not to the quest location itself. I've stopped trusting the green arrow over the taxi terminals altogether and instead check my map first for the closest location. It seems to be wrong more often than it's right.

[Lotharofxev]

First world problems?

 

Seriously, out of ALL the annoyances found, this is the one that torques your chain?

[LilSaihah]

I thought it was pretty funny that the game still sends you through the opposite team's checkpoints on Belsavis and Hoth.

[psandak]

Examples before you are considered crazy.

 

This happens on Tattooine and Hoth. Pub character, Pub base is way north, imp base is south. Quest is completed in the south, quest then instructs you to the next area and on the map it indicates you can get to the next area through an opening. Only problem is that opening is an imp base.

 

REALLY annoying instance: during the Corso story you go back to tattooine to rescue a friend of Corso's the map directs you to run through an imp base. no other way through...EXCEPT....there is a hidden cave that is only known because it is on the web (without the web information I would have given up on the quest).

[MillionsKNives]

This happens on Tattooine and Hoth. Pub character, Pub base is way north, imp base is south. Quest is completed in the south, quest then instructs you to the next area and on the map it indicates you can get to the next area through an opening. Only problem is that opening is an imp base.

 

REALLY annoying instance: during the Corso story you go back to tattooine to rescue a friend of Corso's the map directs you to run through an imp base. no other way through...EXCEPT....there is a hidden cave that is only known because it is on the web (without the web information I would have given up on the quest).

 

I recently did that quest on my smuggler. I knew the cave existed but didn't bother trying to find it. I resorted to just going through the PVP zone instead.

[LyraineAlei]

Just as a funny anecdote to something that happened to me on Corellia once:

 

I was zipping around looking for Big Red on my Assassin, after completing the GSI missions on my Shadow, and decided to run just run to the taxi and fly to another location. I was half way through the outpost before I realized I wasn't on my Shadow any more, and that I was in a Republic base. I took the guards and turrets so much by surprise that I actually managed to drive all the way through it and was just about out of range before the first turret started shooting, and by then, I'd gotten away. I can see the dialog between the NPCs now: Did you see that stupid Sith ride through here?

 

I did that. Well, not exactly that. I jumped off my Trooper and went back to my main (BH Merc) and was wandering around Alderaan doing GSIs, then walked into House Organa lands intending to turn in the reports and then sat there trying to figure out what I was going to be flagged for PvP in 10... 9... 8...

[Cernow]

I thought it was pretty funny that the game still sends you through the opposite team's checkpoints on Belsavis and Hoth.

 

It just happened to me on Belsavis, despite reading this thread earlier today and despite being aware of the issue.

 

The problem isn't so much that the map sends you the wrong way, although that is a problem. The bigger issue is that the enemy guards show as green when you fist encounter them, so you don't really identify them as threats until AFTER they've one-shot you. They turn to red once you've resurrected.

 

It's just poor game design. Game breaking? Of course not. But should they have fixed it a long time ago? Of course.

Will they ever fix it? Of course not.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Cernow

[Fantazm]

This did once happen to me ages ago on Belsavis when I wasn't paying attention. I went speedering right into a republic checkpoint and got whacked.

 

I laughed a bit at my own stupidity for not realising, resurrected myself and went the other way.

 

I didn't think it was a big deal.

[Muljo_Stpho]

Its probably not terribly easy to refine(currently it seems to check against the closest map changing exit/entrance), but they might be able to resolve the issue simply by adjusting the parameters for Republic and Imperial maps so that they don't consider entrances and exits in certain locations(opposite faction bases) as valid answers to the "quickest route from A to B" gps.

 

Skimming through this topic, this is the direction that my mind has been going.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_traversal

 

Their algorithm probably sticks close to the basics. A node is a node. All waypoints are equal. All that matters is the length of each path between connected nodes.

 

But of course navigating isn't quite that simple for us here because of those faction bases. The first thought to address this would be to tinker with the way the nodes are defined and the way the algortihm functions so that certain nodes are no longer considered valid...

 

I think they can make it a bit simpler than that though, can't they? Start out with the check against the player's current faction and populate a slightly different list of nodes for each instead of using the same list for everybody. So the nodes that the algorithm uses for mission pathfinding for Republic players will be based on a map that treats Imperial bases as solid walls (no paths to or from them) or at least jacks up the "path distance" value to an unreasonable level (so the algorithm still considers that path but rates it as being much longer so that another path has a chance to rate better)). And the nodes for Empire players do the same for Republic bases. The code does the same thing either way and it determines that a specific path is the shortest path. It just starts with data weighted to discourage ever finding those inconvenient options to be the shortest path.

 

In the Tatooine example, for a Republic player trying to get around that one Imperial base for a companion mission, the nodes in question might be:

A = Outpost Thorazan

B = Outpost Zaroshe

C = tunnel entrance near Outpost Zaroshe in Dune Sea

D = tunnel exit near Outlaw's Den (south)

E = a Republic companion mission location past Outpost Zaroshe

 

(I'm going to make up numbers here.)

 

Suppose that he information associated with the nodes currently looks like:

path AB = 100

path AC = 99

path CD = 2

path BE = 50

path DE = 51

 

And suppose that the information associated with the nodes for Republic players after this change might look like:

path AB = 1000

path AC = 99

path CD = 2

path BE = 500

path DE = 51

 

Compare path AB->BE and path AC->CD->DE. Currently the pathfinder would say that the total lengths are 150 and 152, making the path through Outpost Zaroshe the shorter path. The pathfinder for the node list that has been revised for Republic players, though, would say that the total lengths are 1500 and 152, making the path through the tunnel the shorter path.

 

If the values, whatever they actually are, are calculated live based on the map layout somehow instead of just being predefined and stored in a table of data like this, the faction check would have to happen when this calculation is made and it would multiply the actual value by some amount to create the inflated numbers where it needs to.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Muljo_Stpho

[Daewan]

The bigger issue is that the enemy guards show as green when you fist encounter them, so you don't really identify them as threats until AFTER they've one-shot you. They turn to red once you've resurrected..

 

I don't believe this is correct. They always appear as red to me, whenever I bother to check. I know they are red because that single glimpse of red on my path has been enough to save me once or twice. I've never seen the guards of an enemy base as any color other than red, and I play on a PvE server, and I am never flagged.

[ivanhedgehog]

Examples before you are considered crazy.

 

sorc hoth class quests.. you leave the instance where you meet the ghost, and get directed to your next step, which is a talk to at leth outpost..it sends yo north directly into a pub outpost instead of south through an imp one. the way it sends you is longer than the correct one, so it isnt just using the shorter route.