Need better defensive CDs

[Hei_Atzfel]

Well i've only played Annihilation and Vengeance, and neither have a large amount of utility tied into Ravage. Annihilation has none whatsoever.

 

And to add, Annihilation is probably the least mobile spec in the game due to their obnoxious susceptibility to CC

 

Vengeance totes has little use for ravage. They only have a reset for it in their tree. That in no way means it's something you should be using pretty much on cooldown.

[egriz]

 

Unload, Rapid shots, and [i think] Railshot all get through Shroud. Not many people know this so I figured I'd share.

 

If I'm right, Unload is Full Auto, Rapid shots in Hammer shot and Railshot is High Impact Bolt.

As a vanguard you don't really use full auto, unless the target is at 30m, can't get closer, he won't come closer, you can't use pull and you can't use HIB. Plus you are standing still while using, so really not ideal...

HIB: while it is a ranged skill, the target needs to be incapacitated or have a dot on himself to be able to use.. Great! But Shroud/Resilience will make him immune to stuns, incapacitating effects and will purge him, so there goes HIB..

And Hammer shot is the skill that you use when you can't use anything else / need to recover ammo and you don't have recharge cell and reserve powercell.

So basically you can forget about damaging a sin during shroud, you are better off changing target for the duration.

 

But we are getting far from what I originally wanted to talk about..

Looking at only solo ranked (cause ranked is the only place where DCDs for dps really matters.. in PVE with a good team you don't need to use them and in normal wz you care more about objectives than your life), assuming teams of 3 or 4 dps in both teams and assuming everyone is kind of an expert (or at least not a newbie) of their class.. do you think that compared to all the classes, VG/PT has relatively good DCDs?

 

Let me ask the question from another perspective: when it comes to survival, do you think an average player will manage a VG/PT as well as any other class?

Edited November 14, 2014 by egriz

[diadox]

 

I presume you play on a PVP server? Or at least a server where there are quite a few ppl queueing? On The Red Eclipse (at least in that time periode when I queue) the same 20.. max 30 people queue, most of the opponents or teammates we know or at least heard their names before. And most of the players are playing shadow/sin, scoundrel/op, guardian/jugg, senti/mara, there are less slingers, sages/sorcs, some vanguards and very few commandos.

 

 

As anecdotal as it may be, in my experience vanguards have been quite common in TRE solo ranked this season. Pyro powertech/vanguard is probably the spec I have seen the most of.

[Vodrin]

Vengeance has one ability that procs Ravage high up in the tree. Ravage does nothing else in their skill tree. Derp.

 

Besides, the comment was about mobility and Pulse Cannon, hardly any relation between Ravage and High Impact Bolt. But keep up the good work!

 

Well except for that whole root thing and the fact that ravage accounts for a great deal of vengeance damage. That's all you give up if you ignore ravage, a lot of your damage and some of your target control.

 

And for annihilation, getting off ravage with deadly saber up is a great way to set up burst, but go ahead and ignore it. The point is that the spec looses about the same amount of it's damage by ignoring pulse cannon that vengeance looses by ignoring ravage. In that way the HiB comment was valid.

 

do you think that compared to all the classes, VG/PT has relatively good DCDs?

 

Let me ask the question from another perspective: when it comes to survival, do you think an average player will manage a VG/PT as well as any other class?

In short yes. Only the Jg/guardian has much better cooldowns, and only the sin/shadow is arguably better off. Every other AC is worse off in ranked. Madness sorcs have the range and mobility to also be well off, but pyro PT is actually one of the stronger solo ranked specs and it's DCD's are pretty good. It certainly is much better off than a sniper, merc, or maurauder. And don't even think about DPS ops. Edited November 14, 2014 by Vodrin

[Vember]

Well except for that whole root thing and the fact that ravage accounts for a great deal of vengeance damage. That's all you give up if you ignore ravage, a lot of your damage and some of your target control.

 

And for annihilation, getting off ravage with deadly saber up is a great way to set up burst, but go ahead and ignore it. The point is that the spec looses about the same amount of it's damage by ignoring pulse cannon that vengeance looses by ignoring ravage. In that way the HiB comment was valid.

 

 

No, what it does is support my claim that a spec relying on a rooted channel is not a mobile spec. Annihilation and Vengeance don't rely on Ravage, nothing in their skill tree is really tied to it in the way that 3.0 Plasmatechs will be relying on Pulse Cannon.

[TACeMossie]

No, what it does is support my claim that a spec relying on a rooted channel is not a mobile spec. Annihilation and Vengeance don't rely on Ravage, nothing in their skill tree is really tied to it in the way that 3.0 Plasmatechs will be relying on Pulse Cannon.

 

Vengeance: 30% of its damage is ravage, used for 2 in 7 cooldowns

Plasmatech: 20% of its damage is in pulse cannon, used for 2 in 10 cooldowns

 

Are you sure you aren't talking about Rage Juggs?

 

As for alternatives if you dont want to channel:

 

Vengeance: Strike -> Slash (everything else is a no go because resources!)

Plasmatech: Dropping Pulse Cannon enables Shockstrike to go from a 10 second cooldown on average to a 9 second cooldown on average, and the other fillers can be spammed with Ion Pulse. In other words, you lose less and gain far, far more

Edited November 14, 2014 by TACeMossie

[KainrycKarr]

As a veteran Tactics/AP player since launch I can say the spec has certainly had its issues. Mobility is not one of them, in PvP at least. Powertech is the second most tanky DPS in the game behind Juggernaut. Your complaint is based around 4 DPS v 4 dps. When there is no healing or tanking, SOMEONE is going to go down and with PT being such a threat, it is often targeted. More DCDs will only make it OP. As for complaining about assassins, yes they are somewhat OP but they are by design meant to kill a single target...the class IS called assassin after all. As for vengeance not having any reliance on Ravage...well you're just not a very good vengeance jug of you believe that.

[Vember]

Vengeance: 30% of its damage is ravage, used for 2 in 7 cooldowns

Plasmatech: 20% of its damage is in pulse cannon, used for 2 in 10 cooldowns

 

Are you sure you aren't talking about Rage Juggs?

 

As for alternatives if you dont want to channel:

 

Vengeance: Strike -> Slash (everything else is a no go because resources!)

Plasmatech: Dropping Pulse Cannon enables Shockstrike to go from a 10 second cooldown on average to a 9 second cooldown on average, and the other fillers can be spammed with Ion Pulse. In other words, you lose less and gain far, far more

 

Vengeance has two utilities that support Ravage, Plasmatech has four very core utilities that buff Pulse Cannon.

 

Vengeance: Strike -> Slash (everything else is a no go because resources!)

 

Yea...you've obviously never played Vengeance.

 

As for vengeance not having any reliance on Ravage...well you're just not a very good vengeance jug of you believe that.

 

I feel like I'm debating with Kindergartners.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Vember

[TACeMossie]

Vengeance has two utilities that support Ravage, Plasmatech has four very core utilities that buff Pulse Cannon.

 

So the 4 that buff Plasmatech are:

+Surge damage

+Damage from Ion Pulse/Flame Sweep, Slow Effect

Reduced Cooldown

+Execute damage

 

And the ones that buff Vengeance Master Strike are:

http://www.torhead.com/ability/g2to20P/keening (Proc for dispatch on anything, works off master strike/ravage)

http://www.torhead.com/ability/6ECReK4/debilitation (Roots targets you hit with master strike)

http://www.torhead.com/ability/g355JbG/master-focus (Cooldown reset for master strike, drops from 30 seconds to average 10.5)

http://www.torhead.com/ability/fYmQyhJ/zen-strike (Damage boost to Master Strike)

 

Oh look, 4 of them. It also usually steals the sentinel 2-piece bonus for more master strike damage too, but i'll forgive you for ignoring that cause its possible you only PvP.

 

Yea...you've obviously never played Vengeance.

 

You caught me out, but only because I dont have a Jugg. I have played Vigilance though, hence the sentinel terms

But seriously, unless you are seriously doing something wrong you should never have room for Assault or Vicious Slash in your rotation, because having all your important stuff on cooldown results in no time to use those much weaker moves. Though you can use them if and only if, you remove Ravage/Master Strike from your rotation.

 

I feel like I'm debating with Kindergartners.

 

Because the level of intelligence in the conversation is too much for you to comprehend?

Edited November 15, 2014 by TACeMossie

[KainrycKarr]

Vengeance has two utilities that support Ravage, Plasmatech has four very core utilities that buff Pulse Cannon.

 

 

 

Yea...you've obviously never played Vengeance.

 

 

 

I feel like I'm debating with Kindergartners.

 

What you feel like does not lessen the fact that you're very misguided in how these specs play in PVP.

 

I do nothing but pvp on my AP, and mobility is simply not an issue. unless you're trying to use FT on cooldown regardless of positioning and context. Yes, this includes ranked arenas.

 

And if you're playing vengeance, you really shouldn't be needing to use the default attack like, at all. The CD's on all the primary abilities, combined with the near constant reset of ravage, give you plenty of far better options to use in nearly any fight.

Edited November 15, 2014 by KainrycKarr

[xxSHOONYxx]

Guys

 

Guys

 

What if

 

This is bait

 

[xxSHOONYxx]

But seriously, unless you are seriously doing something wrong you should never have room for Assault or Vicious Slash in your rotation, because having all your important stuff on cooldown results in no time to use those much weaker moves. Though you can use them if and only if, you remove Ravage/Master Strike from your rotation.

 

Occationally you can have literally everything on CD (including force push) although that usually happens if you end up delaying one of your dots by 1gcd to finish a ravage channel. And even then it's only 1 gcd per 8 minutes or so.

 

Or maybe I'm just a bad Juggie ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Vember]

So the 4 that buff Plasmatech are:

+Surge damage

+Damage from Ion Pulse/Flame Sweep, Slow Effect

Reduced Cooldown

+Execute damage

 

And the ones that buff Vengeance Master Strike are:

http://www.torhead.com/ability/g2to20P/keening (Proc for dispatch on anything, works off master strike/ravage)

http://www.torhead.com/ability/6ECReK4/debilitation (Roots targets you hit with master strike)

http://www.torhead.com/ability/g355JbG/master-focus (Cooldown reset for master strike, drops from 30 seconds to average 10.5)

http://www.torhead.com/ability/fYmQyhJ/zen-strike (Damage boost to Master Strike)

 

Oh look, 4 of them. It also usually steals the sentinel 2-piece bonus for more master strike damage too, but i'll forgive you for ignoring that cause its possible you only PvP.

 

 

 

You caught me out, but only because I dont have a Jugg. I have played Vigilance though, hence the sentinel terms

But seriously, unless you are seriously doing something wrong you should never have room for Assault or Vicious Slash in your rotation, because having all your important stuff on cooldown results in no time to use those much weaker moves. Though you can use them if and only if, you remove Ravage/Master Strike from your rotation.

 

 

 

Because the level of intelligence in the conversation is too much for you to comprehend?

 

Only two of those are really worth mentioning. 99% of your dispatch procs come from the bleeds, and the root is a non factor most of the time. But I"m not really here to debate about Ravage or Juggernauts, somebody else brought that up. Nice of you to pounce on it though, I've noticed you getting defensive about anyone questioning these changes.

[Vember]

What you feel like does not lessen the fact that you're very misguided in how these specs play in PVP.

 

And if you're playing vengeance, you really shouldn't be needing to use the default attack like, at all. The CD's on all the primary abilities, combined with the near constant reset of ravage, give you plenty of far better options to use in nearly any fight.

 

Really dude? Try reading the thread.

[TACeMossie]

Only two of those are really worth mentioning. 99% of your dispatch procs come from the bleeds, and the root is a non factor most of the time. But I"m not really here to debate about Ravage or Juggernauts, somebody else brought that up. Nice of you to pounce on it though, I've noticed you getting defensive about anyone questioning these changes.

 

Hey, my issue here is your complaining about Plasmatech's mobility in 3.0 while stating "Vengeance Juggs" as a more mobile option. Out of every class in the whole damn game, you chose the 1 non-sniper spec that will be less mobile than a Plasmatech Vanguard as a more mobile option.

 

Some examples:

 

Watchman - Doesn't rely on Master Strike

Combat - Doesn't rely on Master Strike

Focus - Doesn't rely on Master Strike

 

Telekinetics - Has about 3 seconds of channeling/casting every 18 seconds if you take minor damage and are using force speed for instant disturbance and you've picked up force mobility for Turbulence

Balance - Well it does spam Telekinetic Throw... I guess its also less mobile than Plasmatech

 

Infiltration - No channeled Attacks.

Serenity - No channeled Attacks

 

Scrapper - No channeled Attacks

Dirty Fighting (scoundrel) - No channeled attacks

 

Marksmanship - Channels galore, but then again I said ignore Snipers

Engineering - Equal or More turretty than vigilance/vengeance

Virulence (hey, they released the name) - More turretty than vigilance/vengeance

 

Gunnery - You've got grav round spam... but then a ton of them are instants due to all the procs they gave you. The only other casted/channeled ability is Full Auto/Its replacement I forget the name of, and they can be used on the move.

Assault Specialist - Based off resource costs, you'll have to use Full Auto for one of the procs, and will only have the ammo for 1 Charged Bolts every 15 seconds. Everything else would be instant (Serrated Bolt being instant via the proc) - making Assault twice as mobile as Plasmatech

 

Tactics - Death From Above, which is every 45 seconds.

 

 

As you can see, there are about 5 possible specs less mobile than Plasmatech:

 

Vigilance

Gunnery (maybe)

Telekinetics

Balance

Gunslingers in general (YES IM CALLING THIS A SPEC)

 

But even then, im not accounting for the 10-15 meter range of most of Plasmatech's moves, the +15% passive move speed/+75% HtL Move speed from utilities, and the fact that a bunch of these specs i've spoken of have melee restrictions. I also haven't taken into account possible changes coming in 3.0 that they haven't talked about (for all we know, they could make Master Strike able to be casted while moving!)

[Vember]

Hey, my issue here is your complaining about Plasmatech's mobility in 3.0 while stating "Vengeance Juggs" as a more mobile option. Out of every class in the whole damn game, you chose the 1 non-sniper spec that will be less mobile than a Plasmatech Vanguard as a more mobile option.

 

 

*** are you babbling about? Someone else asked me if Ravage made Vengeance a less mobile spec, and I said it did not. You have taken pretty much everything I've said out of context and twisted it suit your own agenda. Let me repeat what I've said countless times now:

 

Why are they making the DoT pressure spec less mobile? I didn't compare it to anything...all I wanted to know was why they are sticking the pulse cannon build into the DoT spec. That's it. Why change specs around that don't need to be changed around, is my question. There's no denying that Plasmatech will be "less mobile" than Assault is currently, and both are the DoT pressure specs, so don't come back with that "but Plasma's not Assault, its Tactics" crap. Tactics is still Tactics, only with more mobility than it used to have.

[TACeMossie]

*** are you babbling about? Someone else asked me if Ravage made Vengeance a less mobile spec, and I said it did not. You have taken pretty much everything I've said out of context and twisted it suit your own agenda. Let me repeat what I've said countless times now:

 

Why are they making the DoT pressure spec less mobile? I didn't compare it to anything...all I wanted to know was why they are sticking the pulse cannon build into the DoT spec. That's it. Why change specs around that don't need to be changed around, is my question. There's no denying that Plasmatech will be "less mobile" than Assault is currently, and both are the DoT pressure specs, so don't come back with that "but Plasma's not Assault, its Tactics" crap. Tactics is still Tactics, only with more mobility than it used to have.

 

They're making the DoT pressure spec less mobile in exchange for making it also more mobile (more 30m range abilities, access to utilities for higher move speed/better hydraulics/more range), and incorporating more ways to cause increased pressure on the healers through multi-dotting and more AoE damage.

They changed them around BECAUSE they needed to. Pyro/Assault in 2.8-2.10 was balanced by having the DoTs cleansable, which was the only way to stop the 3-GCD 100-0 kills it could easily achieve if it doesn't get stunned and the target doesn't have a God cooldown (focused defense, saber reflect, shroud, superbubble, or a tech cleanse)

 

Come 3.0, Cleanse no longer works on DoTs, so they had to do something.

What they did then, was move all the DoTs away from the spec, rename it because the name didn't make sense anymore (Imp side)/They needed to rename something (pub side).

 

At the same time, Tactics Spec was underperforming, so to improve it they incorporated all the DoT effects that they had taken away from Pyrotech/Assault in order to keep it balanced. Of course, since Assault had stolen its name, they had to give it a new name, and chose the very appropriate "Plasmatech" Due to the large amount of plasma-based weapons used (Fire Pulse/Ion Pulse/Pulse Cannon/Plasma Cell/Plasmatize, to name a few).

 

The devs have also pretty much stated if you play Assault on Live, you will be playing Tactics in 3.0, and if you play Tactics on live, you'll be playing Plasmatech in 3.0, by stating the following in the PT/VG Dev Blog:

 

On the whole, the new Tactics discipline can be summarized as having a play style similar to the old Assault Specialist without all of the burning, while the new Plasmatech can be summarized as having a play style similar to the old Tactics with a lot more burning.

Edited November 16, 2014 by TACeMossie

[Vember]

They're making the DoT pressure spec less mobile in exchange for making it also more mobile (more 30m range abilities, access to utilities for higher move speed/better hydraulics/more range), and incorporating more ways to cause increased pressure on the healers through multi-dotting and more AoE damage.

They changed them around BECAUSE they needed to. Pyro/Assault in 2.8-2.10 was balanced by having the DoTs cleansable, which was the only way to stop the 3-GCD 100-0 kills it could easily achieve if it doesn't get stunned and the target doesn't have a God cooldown (focused defense, saber reflect, shroud, superbubble, or a tech cleanse)

 

Come 3.0, Cleanse no longer works on DoTs, so they had to do something.

What they did then, was move all the DoTs away from the spec, rename it because the name didn't make sense anymore (Imp side)/They needed to rename something (pub side).

 

At the same time, Tactics Spec was underperforming, so to improve it they incorporated all the DoT effects that they had taken away from Pyrotech/Assault in order to keep it balanced. Of course, since Assault had stolen its name, they had to give it a new name, and chose the very appropriate "Plasmatech" Due to the large amount of plasma-based weapons used (Fire Pulse/Ion Pulse/Pulse Cannon/Plasma Cell/Plasmatize, to name a few).

 

The devs have also pretty much stated if you play Assault on Live, you will be playing Tactics in 3.0, and if you play Tactics on live, you'll be playing Plasmatech in 3.0, by stating the following in the PT/VG Dev Blog:

 

That makes sense I suppose, but I don't really understand this:

 

The devs have also pretty much stated if you play Assault on Live, you will be playing Tactics in 3.0, and if you play Tactics on live, you'll be playing Plasmatech in 3.0, by stating the following in the PT/VG Dev Blog:

 

All they did was swap out HiB and Pulse Cannon. If you want DoTs on live, and stuff like the cooldown on Kolto Overload, you'll be playing Assault. If you want those things in 3.0, you'll be playing...Plasmatech. More Pulse Cannon, but nothing else that Tactics has in live from what I can tell.

[Fellow-Canadian]

Sounds to me like the OP has more of a learn-to-play issue than stating anything wrong with the class.

 

If you can't survive a long time with 2 hard stuns and rotating DCDs then you are doing something very wrong.

[Frenesi]

 

 

 

All they did was swap out HiB and Pulse Cannon. If you want DoTs on live, and stuff like the cooldown on Kolto Overload, you'll be playing Assault. If you want those things in 3.0, you'll be playing...Plasmatech. More Pulse Cannon, but nothing else that Tactics has in live from what I can tell.

 

And it you want HiB (aka railshot) in 3.0 you will be playing AP. They remade both specs. It's just a question of what mechanics are considered core. Old AP was built around generating prototype flamethrower. Which stays exactly the same in 3.0 pyro. 3.0 AP lost all dots, but got shoulder canon (and blade? meh). All of them are just extra damage sources, and hardly a core mechanics, unlike railshot procs (don't have much exp with old pyro, so correct me if i'm wrong).

Edited November 16, 2014 by Frenesi

[egriz]

Sounds to me like the OP has more of a learn-to-play issue than stating anything wrong with the class.

 

If you can't survive a long time with 2 hard stuns and rotating DCDs then you are doing something very wrong.

 

Finally someone talking about the original thread. No, I don't have a learn-to-play issue (I think), been playing the class since the game came out, played pvp since 1.2, played ranked even when there was 8v8 version, played ranked continuously ever since arenas came out.

I am confident enough to say I know how to play the vanguard dps, both talents.

Did not have problems in the first 2 seasons (where there were healers and tanks queueing as often as dps) and managed to obtain the prizes that I wanted to get. In this season however, for some reason the tanks and healers are gone (just checked, I had 112 matches S3) and there are only 4dps vs 4dps matches (I would say from the 112 matches, 100-102 times).

What's the best strategy? Of course focusing... and out of all the classes, I would say that the vanguard is one of the most vulnerable to being focused. Don't tell me I should rotate my DCDs, how would you rotate them when being attacked by 4 dps? You wouldn't.. you couldn't. You need to use them all or you will die when you get the first stun.

 

When I mentioned other skills earlier, I was referring to this situation: reflect, guarded by the force, barrier, dodge, roll, resilience, stealth, self heal that can be used while stunned, immunity to stuns, ...etc. these are things that are effective in a way that they either guarantee survival for the duration even against 4 dps hitting, or help you escape/kite or make the opponents change focus, thus making it possible for them to attack multiple targets at the same time and by doing so, make them less effective. Compared to this, a vanguard using every DCD at the same time will not be safe, even for a bit, not even with an adrenal ticking. Not just that, the opponents will not need to change focus, they can just nuke till death.

 

And why would 4 dps target someone else? why are vanguards popular at getting focused?

slingers: cannot be leaped at, when near him he might roll away, put bombs on you, ...

scoundrels, shadows: stealth at the beginning, so cannot be targeted first if your team is attacking + getting back to stealth

sages: barrier

guardians: being a guardian + guardian leap when really out of everything

sentinel: guarded by the force

commandos: instant big self heals if needed

 

Because of these things alone, depending on the classes the opponents have, hitting them first might be a problem. What about vanguards? No matter the class, anyone can hit them right from the start, with every skill. Damage won't be reduced if they use a taunt.. just keep focus targeting. And doesn't matter how many or what DCDs they use, hit hard and they die.

 

Now, if anyone has anything to say about this problem (cause there is no other problem, in every other situation the DCDs are fine, can be rotated, not useless), write your suggestions, ideas (not like "go to a pvp server", "play team ranked" and such) and opinions.

Edited November 17, 2014 by egriz

[xxSHOONYxx]

Long post...

 

Well one of the utilities in 3.0 is being able to use Kolto overload while stunned, which will purge the stuns so there's that. And all specs will get shied cannon.

Edited November 17, 2014 by xxSHOONYxx

[Mularky]

Well one of the utilities in 3.0 is being able to use Kolto overload while stunned, which will purge the stuns so there's that. And all specs will get shied cannon.

 

Another good idea is go and mess with Dulfy's Discipline Calc and make different specs for different types of enviroments you play in.

 

Regs, ranked 4s, solo ranked, dailies, and ops. I am still trying to tinker with them a little, but there is soooo much to choose from.

 

WTB PT/VG discipline theory crafting thread.

[egriz]

Well one of the utilities in 3.0 is being able to use Kolto overload while stunned, which will purge the stuns so there's that. And all specs will get shied cannon.

Few problems with that. On the future plasmatech talent, when you use adrenaline rush and thus get out of stun because of the utility, you get out of stun and you are happy. However because the plasmatech doesnt have as good survival skills as tactics, tactics will be the talent to go.

What happens on tactics when adrenaline rush gets you out of stun? You lose your 30% dmg red while stunned buff and since this talent doesn't have a 30% dmg red when adrenaline rush is active, you are pretty much dead, though probably you can use an attack, maybe 2 before you die.

The other problem is that both are in the heroic utilities, choose them and say goodbye to the +45% speed while using hold the line.

 

Another good idea is go and mess with Dulfy's Discipline Calc and make different specs for different types of enviroments you play in.

 

Regs, ranked 4s, solo ranked, dailies, and ops. I am still trying to tinker with them a little, but there is soooo much to choose from.

 

WTB PT/VG discipline theory crafting thread.

 

It is easy to choose for PVE, just ignore the survival ones and the rest will be obvious, for normal wzs, choose whatever you like, you can toy around with them.

For ranked, for reasons mentioned before I'll stick to the survival ones.

[Mularky]

 

It is easy to choose for PVE, just ignore the survival ones and the rest will be obvious, for normal wzs, choose whatever you like, you can toy around with them.

For ranked, for reasons mentioned before I'll stick to the survival ones.

 

TBH we are really just going to have to wait and try it out on once SoR goes live.