Merc pvp in 3.0

[Macroeconomics]

ARSENAL

Looking at the proposed changes, it's not a pretty picture.

 

The main problem is that the Utility System (you get three Tier 1, two Tier 2 and two Tier 3 utilities) will not allow you to replicate even the current set of Arsenal abilities in 2.9. Yes, some new utilities become available to you. But then you need to give up even more of your current utility set in order to get those.

 

On the Tier 1 side, my Arsenal Merc presently has Improved Vents, Afterburners, Power Barrier and Jet Escape. Improved Vents is only at the one skill pt level, but as the main benefit of Improved Vents is the alacrity boost, it suffices. That will be lost in 3.0 as the other three utilities are pretty much mandatory in order to give you any sense of durability in a 1v1 encounter. Also lost is System Calibrations. No choice at all about that, it is simply taken away from you.

 

On the Tier 2 side, things aren't much better. You will want to take Torque Boosters, but then you lose Stabilizers (can't be replaced). Instead you get another 2 utility available to add to your repertoire. Unfortunately none of them are terribly attractive. Pyro Shield sounds good on paper, until you realize that with the buff to Cloak of Pain & Blood Ward, Pyro Shield actually is a NEGATIVE and will make you a dead fish to any Mara/Sent 1v1, whereas a good Arsenal can deal with those toons adequately (1v1) in 2.9. Power Shield or Protective Field are probably the way to go. The problem here, is that both of those are useful only if you sit there and take punishment when under pressure, when the correct tactic is to extract yourself. Dubious. In fact since Merc dps loses Rapid Scan, you can't even sit there and heal yourself for the duration of the shield effect.

 

With the Tier 3 abilities, the most talked about one is Thrill of the Hunt, which allows you to use Unload while moving. However in order to gain that, you will need to lose either Energy Rebounder or Power Overrides, both of which are really keys attributes of the Arsenal platform.

 

In summary, you can't even replicate the current Arsenal utilities with new system. That is a nerf by any other name. Add in that you will be getting your off healing abilities nerfed (you lose Rapid Scan), and it just doesn't look attractive. You are still better off than Merc Pyro, as that subclass remains a deathtrap versus any capable melee toon. But if you want to be a ranged dps, Sorc is clearly the way to go. As just one example, Sorc gets as a Tier 1 utility the same basic functionality that Merc must use a Tier 3 ability to get (Force Suffusion vs. Kolto Jets).

 

BODYGUARD

Things actually look better for Bodyguard in 3.0, at least as far as the utilities/skill tree trade-offs go.

 

From Tier 1 you can take Improved Vents, Custom Enviro and Afterburners which is a nice set. Sure you lose System Calibrations, but Afterburners in exchange for that is well worth it particularly since so many enemy melee react to the Afterburner root by stunning you. And Bodyguard pvp is all about building up your resolve prior to popping your shield.

 

Tier 2 is where you can really make hay. By selecting Protective Field and Power Shield, you really force the enemy to stun you only when your shield is up. Otherwise you become well neigh invincible. And to make this even better....

 

Tier 3 gives you Energy Rebounder!!! Holy Grail, thy be mine! This is single handedly the biggest buff to Bodyguard in 3.0. With your second Tier 3 utility you can either retain Kolto Jets or intriguingly take Stabilized Armor. The former is obviously better for pve, but for pvp purposes you'll want to take the latter. Think about it - your opponents really can't stun you when your shield is down, and when its up, you will have a 55% DR from the shield and the stabilized armor. On top of your normal heavy armor. Heal tank, baby!

 

INNOVATIVE ORDINANCE (aka Pyro)

The red headed stepchild stays unloved. In the current state of SWtoR pvp, this is clearly the worst subclass in the game. BW has tried to add some buffs to the subclass, but these are offset by buffs to main hunters of Pyros, enemy melee, that specifically exploit the Pyro's main attribute - a long, weak DoT trail. The Blood Ward utility in particular, which every Mara/Sent in 3.0 will take, is basically a trump card over Merc Pyro. And they already had a trump card over Merc Pyro with Cloak of Pain. You will have to be a masochist to play Merc Pyro in 3.0 pvp in anything other than a casual match.

[ViolentAngel]

We currently enjoy Energy Rebounder and Power Overrides. Thrill of the Hunt might and Stabilized Armour are going to be really tough choices... I was looking forward to Kolto Jets and Jet Rebounder until I realised they were Heroics.

[Macroeconomics]

For Bodyguards, the logical heroic utilities to choose are Energy Rebounder and Kolto Jets. I think Bodyguards will be more effective in 3.0 than they were in 2.9. Which is good since they were an afterthought for pvp healing. For Arsenal, it simply doesn't look as good.

[Khantalas]

For Bodyguards, the logical heroic utilities to choose are Energy Rebounder and Kolto Jets. I think Bodyguards will be more effective in 3.0 than they were in 2.9. Which is good since they were an afterthought for pvp healing. For Arsenal, it simply doesn't look as good.

 

How will they compare to 2.10, though?

[Kunovega]

The utility system in 3.0 is stupid beyond belief.

 

While I get the concept and don't mind the flattened discipline tree, the utility limitations are huge nerfs that the devs do not even seem to be aware of

 

We need 5 more utility points minimum just to bring arsenal on par with what it currently can do at level 55

 

We are basically going to be level 60 and even weaker than we are now, on a class that is already a joke

 

Thanks bioware for nerfing the weakest spec in the game, you are basically proving to me that I should cancel my sub because you no clue how to balance anything despite your claims

[Kunovega]

How will they compare to 2.10, though?

 

Weaker

 

The problem starts with the fact we are getting a damage nerf and that mercs are so easily killed already

 

So here's the thing; with current builds in arsenal you generally take some of the defensive utility procs and endurance.

 

Problem: in 3.0 we are getting damage nerfs. To make up for the damage nerfs you need to take the new damage utility buffs

 

Which in theory would be ok.. but... to get them you need to skip the defensive utility buffs

 

Compared to what we have NOW in arsenal? You have a choice in 3.0

 

1. Be weaker and easier to kill (by skipping the defense utility you normally would have taken) with the same damage as you have now (because the damage boosts barely bring you back up to par)

 

2. Be just as weak and easy to kill as you are now (by taking the utility defenses) but have less damage at level 60 (than you currently have at 55) and gain none of the new mobility perks because you lack enough points to take them

 

The only way arsenal is going to even remain at its current (weak) power level is if we had 10 utility points, at which point 3.0 will be playing the same class we have now + 1 new ability (to move while using unload)

 

Also: priming shot is stupid, an extra attack added to our rotation that does no more damage than we do now in order to occasionally shoot 1 tracer missle at the front of the global cooldown instead of the end? Thats not a damage increase, its an extra button to push for no real gain at all. Firing tracer instantly only means we can move after shooting, we still wait on the global cooldown to fire again. Its not really a gain of any kind, its an extra complication in our combat rotation that may as well be skipped

 

And the top of tree? Its an upgrade to unload, but instead of buffing unload it has its own button (which shuts off unload when you use it). So our "new ability" is really just a new name for unload and we take unload off our toolbar

 

Why don't we replace all of our attacks with new attacks that do the same thing but give them new names, than we can all pretend that was an upgrade too

 

Bioware wakeup: give us 5 more utility points, you already botched the new system and gave us nothing, at least stop taking more things away from us

 

3.0 = merc arsenal takes it in the *** again

[Zoom_VI]

 

Problem: in 3.0 we are getting damage nerfs. To make up for the damage nerfs you need to take the new damage utility buffs

Every class in the game is getting damage nerfs. Conversly Health pools are going up. This means TTK has significantly increased. This is good for mercs. The issue mercs have is we have no "oh sh*t" DcDs. However with the longer TTK the lack of "oh sh*t" buttons is less of a handicap.

 

 

The only way arsenal is going to even remain at its current (weak) power level is if we had 10 utility points, at which point 3.0 will be playing the same class we have now + 1 new ability (to move while using unload)

10 utility points would overpowerd as hell. 10 utility points means we could pick up both rebounders, the AoE&CC DR, and the casting while moving. We would be invicible gods are far as melee classes are concerned.

 

Also: priming shot is stupid, an extra attack added to our rotation that does no more damage than we do now in order to occasionally shoot 1 tracer missle at the front of the global cooldown instead of the end? Thats not a damage increase, its an extra button to push for no real gain at all. Firing tracer instantly only means we can move after shooting, we still wait on the global cooldown to fire again. Its not really a gain of any kind, its an extra complication in our combat rotation that may as well be skipped

Its a instant ability that deals as much damage as tracer and allows us to tracer a target while moving. Its a buff, stop being stupid. It's not mandatory either so we can still hardcast tracer to backload our burst.

 

And the top of tree? Its an upgrade to unload, but instead of buffing unload it has its own button (which shuts off unload when you use it). So our "new ability" is really just a new name for unload and we take unload off our toolbar

Since you seem to be ignoring all the stuff that is happening to other classes in 3.0, I will point out to you that every single spec in the entire frigging game is getting a ability that replaces one of the base class abilities.

[TezMoney]

You know you don't have to put 2 points into tier 2. You can put 4 into tier 1 and and 1 into tier 2. In the live stream he put 5 points into the bottom tier and was able to access the third.

 

I also feel, OP, that you're not considering the fact that every other class has similar loss/gain game to play when it comes to utilities. From what I've seen there is no reason to feel you will be weaker in 3.0's meta.

Edited November 11, 2014 by TezMoney

[Zoom_VI]

You know you don't have to put 2 points into tier 2. You can put 4 into tier 1 and and 1 into tier 2. In the live stream he put 5 points into the bottom tier and was able to access the third.

 

Yeah but Power Shield and torque Boosters are pretty much mandatory except for healers who would certainly go with protective field.

 

For pugging I feel like it would be better to skip channeling on the move in order to take both energy rebounder and stabilized armor

Edited November 11, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[Transcendent]

ARSENAL

Looking at the proposed changes, it's not a pretty picture.

 

The main problem is that the Utility System (you get three Tier 1, two Tier 2 and two Tier 3 utilities) will not allow you to replicate even the current set of Arsenal abilities in 2.9. Yes, some new utilities become available to you. But then you need to give up even more of your current utility set in order to get those.

 

Some new utilities become available, however you've pretty much summed things up below (and it gets worse)

 

On the Tier 1 side, my Arsenal Merc presently has Improved Vents, Afterburners, Power Barrier and Jet Escape. Improved Vents is only at the one skill pt level, but as the main benefit of Improved Vents is the alacrity boost, it suffices. That will be lost in 3.0 as the other three utilities are pretty much mandatory in order to give you any sense of durability in a 1v1 encounter. Also lost is System Calibrations. No choice at all about that, it is simply taken away from you.

 

You can use more than 3 in the "skillful" part of the utility tree as far as I can tell. However for me that's of little consolation as I tend to run with 1 point in Gyroscopic Alignment Jets in addition to Improved Vents, Afterburners, Power Barrier and Jet Escape. So i'll have to lose that to keep something i'll need in tier 2.

 

On the Tier 2 side, things aren't much better. You will want to take Torque Boosters, but then you lose Stabilizers (can't be replaced). Instead you get another 2 utility available to add to your repertoire. Unfortunately none of them are terribly attractive. Pyro Shield sounds good on paper, until you realize that with the buff to Cloak of Pain & Blood Ward, Pyro Shield actually is a NEGATIVE and will make you a dead fish to any Mara/Sent 1v1, whereas a good Arsenal can deal with those toons adequately (1v1) in 2.9. Power Shield or Protective Field are probably the way to go. The problem here, is that both of those are useful only if you sit there and take punishment when under pressure, when the correct tactic is to extract yourself. Dubious. In fact since Merc dps loses Rapid Scan, you can't even sit there and heal yourself for the duration of the shield effect.

 

Torque Booster is an absolute must have for a hard counter to roots in pvp. I'd have loved Suit FOE to be available to me come 3.0 considering the nerf to Cure for Arsenal mercs. Just isn't going to happen.

 

With the Tier 3 abilities, the most talked about one is Thrill of the Hunt, which allows you to use Unload while moving. However in order to gain that, you will need to lose either Energy Rebounder or Power Overrides, both of which are really keys attributes of the Arsenal platform.

 

This is the hard choice. You'll want Thrill of the Hunt, purely for being more mobile, possibly. However, we all know how PvP works for Arsenal mercs (especially Arenas). Energy Rebounder is an absolute must have, it's limited but it's still highly useful for being able to survive.

 

Power Overrides. From what I can tell from the 3.0 skill calculator (tooltip may or may not be accurate... needs confirming preferably by a dev), they've actually nerfed this. You'll lose the 30 second reduction you currently spec into and only get 15 second reduction in the CD. That's a massive blow, whichever way you want to look at it.

 

In summary, you can't even replicate the current Arsenal utilities with new system. That is a nerf by any other name. Add in that you will be getting your off healing abilities nerfed (you lose Rapid Scan), and it just doesn't look attractive.

 

Looking at it, there are tons of "subtle" changes to a lot of our abilities that look horrendous (as in "eek, i'm not using this class again" type of changes). As for BioWare thinking we're going to be more mobile?

 

Not happening, i'm going to be jumped on regardless of whether i'm mobile or not so I have to pick the utilities that will help me survive, so mobile unload? Not happening, can't afford to spec into "Thrill of the Hunt" if i've got any chance of surviving, even if i'm getting a nerfed Power Overrides (from what I can see).

 

Although all of that said....

 

I'm likely to drop Improved Vents, go with Power Barrier / Jet Escape / Afterburners for tier 1. Torque Boosters / Infrared Sensors (2% DR) for tier 2. Thrill of the Hunt / Power Overrides for tier 3 (burst).

 

Purely on the guaranteed 2% DR from Infrared Sensors (over the 20% chance of DR from Energy Rebounder), the ability to still root / pushback, and to be able to go BB / Power Surge / TM (Armour Debuff) / Priming Shot (TM CD and insta cast + 5% dmg buff to ranged attacks) / TM / BB / Railshot / HSM. Or something

 

With so many roots in PvP i'll be surprised of we become more mobile though.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Transcendent

[TezMoney]

Yeah but Power Shield and torque Boosters are pretty much mandatory except for healers who would certainly go with protective field.

 

For pugging I feel like it would be better to skip channeling on the move in order to take both energy rebounder and stabilized armor

 

Well his concern in Arsenal was lack of a good 2nd choice in the mastery level, so he could pick up the 4th ability he wants in the first tier instead.

Edited November 11, 2014 by TezMoney

[Zoom_VI]

Well his concern in Arsenal was lack of a good 2nd choice in the mastery level, so he could pick up the 4th ability he wants in the first tier instead.

 

that's kinda the point. Every utility tree I have seen including the ones that cannot be discussed here, I end up looking at them going " I want that and that, and that too, but I can't have all those. grrrr."

Edited November 11, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[diadox]

I understand why they want us to give up some things for others. I understand why some of these are things we have previously taken for granted. What I don't understand is why they seem to apply this philosophy to mercs but not to PTs. Why is it mercs have to spend points (sometimes heroic) on things the PT specs get for free?

 

- Energy Rebounder: heroic point for merc, AP PT gets it baseline

- Stabilized Armor: heroic point for merc, AP PT gets it baseline

- Mercs have to spend a heroic point to build stacks of Supercharge with Recharge and Reload (Supercharged Reserves). AP PTs don't have to spend any points to build Energy Lodes (Critical Ventilation)

- Infrared Sensors: masterful for merc, AP PTs get it baseline

- Pyro PTs get 15% dot damage reduction in their discipline. Mercs have to spend a masterful point to get what on live servers is their equivalent (30% dot damage reduction from cleansing themselves)

- Pyro PTs get a rotational root baseline, mercs get to spend a skillful point for a non-rotational one

- Pyro PTs get Automated Defenses baseline. Mercs get to spend a heroic point to get Jet Rebounder, which is what they get instead on live servers - and Automated Defenses is so far out of Jet Rebounder's league as far as usefulness goes it's not even funny

 

While mercs are spending half their points trying to catch up to powertechs, PTs are spending their own to get ahead even more.

[Zoom_VI]

While I agree that in comparison to powertechs, mercs are shafted, but then again looking at what we know about the other utility trees, it seems Powertechs are the exception, not the rule. I think they just put to much in the Heroic tier. Jet rebounder ought to be shifted to the masterful tier.

 

Also some of that stuff listed isn't really comparable. For instance you can't complain about PT's getting the cell stacks from their OoC heal naitively to spec considering those stacks are specific to the spec while the merc's stacks are general to the entire AC. A better comparison would be to sentinels.

 

And Pyro is still getting Deguass natively, and unlike the PT version isn't tied to a ability that has other uses. Arsenal is keeping decoy.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[TezMoney]

that's kinda the point. Every utility tree I have seen including the ones that cannot be discussed here, I end up looking at them going " I want that and that, and that too, but I can't have all those. grrrr."

 

It's both a frustrating and an interesting feeling isn't it?

[Ryuku-sama]

I understand why they want us to give up some things for others. I understand why some of these are things we have previously taken for granted. What I don't understand is why they seem to apply this philosophy to mercs but not to PTs. Why is it mercs have to spend points (sometimes heroic) on things the PT specs get for free?

 

- Energy Rebounder: heroic point for merc, AP PT gets it baseline

- Stabilized Armor: heroic point for merc, AP PT gets it baseline

- Mercs have to spend a heroic point to build stacks of Supercharge with Recharge and Reload (Supercharged Reserves). AP PTs don't have to spend any points to build Energy Lodes (Critical Ventilation). Merc can generate their stacks by Med Shoting their asses. PT can't.

- Infrared Sensors: masterful for merc, AP PTs get it baseline

- Pyro PTs get 15% dot damage reduction in their discipline. Mercs have to spend a masterful point to get what on live servers is their equivalent (30% dot damage reduction from cleansing themselves)

- Pyro PTs get a rotational root baseline, mercs get to spend a skillful point for a non-rotational one

- Pyro PTs get Automated Defenses baseline. Mercs get to spend a heroic point to get Jet Rebounder, which is what they get instead on live servers - and Automated Defenses is so far out of Jet Rebounder's league as far as usefulness goes it's not even funny

 

While mercs are spending half their points trying to catch up to powertechs, PTs are spending their own to get ahead even more.

 

Just to let you know

[Macroeconomics]

Every class in the game is getting damage nerfs. Conversly Health pools are going up. This means TTK has significantly increased. This is good for mercs.

 

No. There is a limited amount of time that a ranged dps can keep a melee dps at beyond 10m range. Thus the longer the TTK, the greater the percentage of the fight will occur at close quarters. That is bad, not good. It's quite simple - if TTK was short, our initial 30m attack would give us a significant head start in a fight vs. a melee. Since TTK will be longer our ranged advantage has less value.

 

You know you don't have to put 2 points into tier 2. You can put 4 into tier 1 and and 1 into tier 2. In the live stream he put 5 points into the bottom tier and was able to access the third.

 

After taking Afterburners, Power Barrier and Jet Escape, none of the remaining Tier 1 utilities is better than the remaining Tier 2 abilities. So why would you use a Tier 2 choice to take a Tier 1 utility? Having the flexibility to make a bad choice does increase the efficient frontier (of character construction).

 

I also feel, OP, that you're not considering the fact that every other class has similar loss/gain game to play when it comes to utilities. From what I've seen there is no reason to feel you will be weaker in 3.0's meta.

 

It is true that every subclass faces choices that involve trade-offs. But the Merc Arsenal class starts in a hole because it can not retain even its existing utilities in 2.9 (or 2.10). A lot of the posts here compare the Merc dps' predicament to that of PT/Vanguard, but I feel that a more apt comparison is to Sorc dps. In particular let's examine the Sorc Madness/Sage Balance spec since this is widely considered to be the top ranged dps class (for pvp) in 2.10.

 

And what do we find? Sorc Madness can take Oppressing Force, Empty Body and Sap Strength for Tier 1, which basically replicates all the stuff he gets in 2.10. Except that Empty Body is now buffed to 10% from 8% in 2.10. For Tier 2, the Madness Sorc can take Emersion, which again replicates something he already had in 2.10. But then he gets another Tier 2 utility. And this time he can actually pick something like Electric Bindings that will help him escape, unlike the Merc's extra Tier 2 ability which doesn't help him escape and just lets him live a tad longer while in a dying situation. Indeed, the combination of Electric Bindings' 5 second root and Emersion means the Sorc Madness can escape any melee on demand. This is a real buff. And it gets better! For Tier 3, the Madness Sorc can take Haunted Dreams which replicates something he already had in 2.10. Except again, its buffed as Whirlwind cast time drops from 1 second to insta-cast. Now the Sorc has two "Get Out of Jail Cards"! For his second Tier 3 ability, the default choice is Shapeless Spirit which replicates something he has in 2.10. But a smart Sorc will take instead Corrupted Barrier which is a huge improvement. Up to a 60% health heal every 50 seconds?! Are you 'effing kidding me? HUGE BUFF. To a class that already is more mobile AND far, far superior to the Merc dps in damage output. But Merc has heavy armor, right? LOL.

[Transcendent]

But Merc has heavy armor, right? LOL.

 

That part made me laugh. Does indeed seem like Sorc is going to be the fotm come 3.0 for dps, it certainly isn't merc. I'm inclined to shelf mine and actually go with AP PT which looks like it's in a far better position for pvp for 3.0.

 

None of the discipline / skill tree, ability changes or utilities choices for 3.0 look remotely close to what we can do now. Sure we've gained the best merc heal and can fire while moving (if you're NOT rooted, we know how that goes). It really isn't looking too good though. Shame, because i've stuck with my merc through thick and thin, but 3.0 looks like it'll break pvp for us completely.

[Macroeconomics]

Sorc is still a dubious ranged class, but already the best ranged class in the game in 2.10 and the most favored by the changes in 3.0. I'll provide another example of how much better Sorc Madness is than Merc dps. For Sorc, Force Lightning plays a similar role to Unload for the Merc. Both are 3 sec channeled abilities that leave the caster vulnerable as he stands still. But there is a key difference. For the Sorc, Force Lightning has no cooldown. That means he can hide behind a pillar, pop out for a quick 1 sec tick on Force Lightning and then pop back into cover. Rinse and repeat twice more and your insta-cast Crushing Darkness is ready. This "hack" to Force Lightning basically makes Sorc Madness the fully mobile ranged dps class people have been dreaming of. Unless you want to, you never need to stop moving or come out to open LoS (except for tiny 1 sec increments).

 

Notice that even if the Merc dps gives up Energy Rebounder to get Thrill of the Hunt, the Merc still can't replicate with Unload what the Sorc can do with Force Lightning. The Merc still needs to expose himself for a 3 sec channel. The Sorc doesn't and can utilize LoS breaking tactics full time. This gives the Sorc an immense advantage vs. ranged enemies and a meaningful advantage vs. melee attackers seeking to leap to him.

[diadox]

While I agree that in comparison to powertechs, mercs are shafted, but then again looking at what we know about the other utility trees, it seems Powertechs are the exception, not the rule. I think they just put to much in the Heroic tier. Jet rebounder ought to be shifted to the masterful tier.

 

I agree it seems PTs will be the extreme, and if you read the first two sentences of my previous post and you'll see I'm fine with mercs having to spend points for their utility, I just don't get why the same design isn't applied to PTs. My gripe isn't with class balance, but rather with their inconsistent design decisions.

 

Also some of that stuff listed isn't really comparable. For instance you can't complain about PT's getting the cell stacks from their OoC heal naitively to spec considering those stacks are specific to the spec while the merc's stacks are general to the entire AC. A better comparison would be to sentinels.

 

Your example would be valid if a precendence hadn't already been set with utilities doing different things for different disciplines. Anyway, my point is that - depending on which design philosophy you want to follow - either PTs get too much baseline or mercs (and most other classes) have too much they need to spend points on. The talents don't have to be 1:1 comparisons for this to be true.

 

And Pyro is still getting Deguass natively, and unlike the PT version isn't tied to a ability that has other uses. Arsenal is keeping decoy.

 

Defensives being tied to taunts could also be questioned, but is not really related to whether or not a skill is baseline.

 

Just to let you know

 

I know, and I'm not saying that particular utility will ever be picked up. And given the fact that stacks can be built outside of combat without the talent, how can that utility - which is mainly quality of life - justifiably be heroic? Its other effects are hardly good enough.

Edited November 12, 2014 by diadox

[TezMoney]

After taking Afterburners, Power Barrier and Jet Escape, none of the remaining Tier 1 utilities is better than the remaining Tier 2 abilities. So why would you use a Tier 2 choice to take a Tier 1 utility? Having the flexibility to make a bad choice does increase the efficient frontier (of character construction).

Not saying you should, just stating the option is there. I personally don't see the issue w/ the masterful tier, but I play a healer.

 

It is true that every subclass faces choices that involve trade-offs. But the Merc Arsenal class starts in a hole because it can not retain even its existing utilities in 2.9 (or 2.10). A lot of the posts here compare the Merc dps' predicament to that of PT/Vanguard, but I feel that a more apt comparison is to Sorc dps. In particular let's examine the Sorc Madness/Sage Balance spec since this is widely considered to be the top ranged dps class (for pvp) in 2.10.

 

And what do we find? Sorc Madness can take Oppressing Force, Empty Body and Sap Strength for Tier 1, which basically replicates all the stuff he gets in 2.10. Except that Empty Body is now buffed to 10% from 8% in 2.10. For Tier 2, the Madness Sorc can take Emersion, which again replicates something he already had in 2.10. But then he gets another Tier 2 utility. And this time he can actually pick something like Electric Bindings that will help him escape, unlike the Merc's extra Tier 2 ability which doesn't help him escape and just lets him live a tad longer while in a dying situation. Indeed, the combination of Electric Bindings' 5 second root and Emersion means the Sorc Madness can escape any melee on demand. This is a real buff. And it gets better! For Tier 3, the Madness Sorc can take Haunted Dreams which replicates something he already had in 2.10. Except again, its buffed as Whirlwind cast time drops from 1 second to insta-cast. Now the Sorc has two "Get Out of Jail Cards"! For his second Tier 3 ability, the default choice is Shapeless Spirit which replicates something he has in 2.10. But a smart Sorc will take instead Corrupted Barrier which is a huge improvement. Up to a 60% health heal every 50 seconds?! Are you 'effing kidding me? HUGE BUFF. To a class that already is more mobile AND far, far superior to the Merc dps in damage output. But Merc has heavy armor, right? LOL.

Actually, in my mind, I was comparing it to other merc specs, since you have to consider how changes to the disciplines will effect the other two specs.Though it makes sense to compare it to sorc, but shouldn't you be talking lightning? As far as madness goes, the two classes aren't exactly equal at this point either, so like I said, I don't see merc in a worse position at this point. It's not like the utilities aren't even as far as the tiers they were pulled from on the current skill trees. The real difference is what was made baseline for all specs, what was abandoned, and what was put into disciplines.

 

I'm still reserving judgement until they release the inevitable changes to armor set bonuses and see what sort of synergies that creates. Ultimately, instead of looking to have the same build plus, it's time to start thinking about changing up you build philosophy and maybe even play style on your merc, for better or worse. For instance, we don't have an escape ability, so no amount of disciplines is going to change that. So you can either run farther with extra overrides, or face tank with energy shield plus heals. I think you're a seriously down playing the effectiveness of both in pvp.

Edited November 12, 2014 by TezMoney

[Zoom_VI]

No. There is a limited amount of time that a ranged dps can keep a melee dps at beyond 10m range. Thus the longer the TTK, the greater the percentage of the fight will occur at close quarters. That is bad, not good. It's quite simple - if TTK was short, our initial 30m attack would give us a significant head start in a fight vs. a melee. Since TTK will be longer our ranged advantage has less value.

That's not how TTK works. Hypothetically if I can only keep at bay for say 15 seconds, I still have a 15 second head start on killing the melee, it doesn't matter if the fight takes 20 seconds or a 100 seconds, I'm still getting a head start.

Besides 3.0 is going to be a ranged game, not a melee one.

[Macroeconomics]

Though it makes sense to compare it to sorc, but shouldn't you be talking lightning? As far as madness goes, the two classes aren't exactly equal at this point either, so like I said, I don't see merc in a worse position at this point.

 

Lightning is a bad choice for pvp. Having equivalence with a horrible pvp platform is not the aim. Instead I compare the best pvp Merc dps subclass to the best pvp Sorc dps subclass. And the Sorc comes out on top. BY A LOT. Better damage output, better off healing output, better team utility and better escapability. If you don't understand that Merc dps is in a worse position, then you are simply not understanding.

 

That's not how TTK works. Hypothetically if I can only keep at bay for say 15 seconds, I still have a 15 second head start on killing the melee, it doesn't matter if the fight takes 20 seconds or a 100 seconds, I'm still getting a head start.

 

That is how it TTK works. That 15 second head start in 2.10 might have translated into a 40% health advantage. In 3.0 it will translate into a 20% health advantage. That is a straight up nerf to your ranged advantage. By claiming your advantage remains while disregarding the size of that advantage, you are making a clear conceptual mistake.

[Zoom_VI]

Lightning is a bad choice for pvp. Having equivalence with a horrible pvp platform is not the aim. Instead I compare the best pvp Merc dps subclass to the best pvp Sorc dps subclass. And the Sorc comes out on top. BY A LOT. Better damage output, better off healing output, better team utility and better escapability. If you don't understand that Merc dps is in a worse position, then you are simply not understanding.

Lightning is more than fine for PvP. The thing is that playing it properly is simply beyond the skillset that most players are comfortable with. Madness requires less brains.

 

 

 

That 15 second head start in 2.10 might have translated into a 40% health advantage. In 3.0 it will translate into a 20% health advantage.

this is just bullsh*t. Do you even realize what you are saying? How the hell did you even reach that conclusion?

[Macroeconomics]

Lightning is more than fine for PvP. The thing is that playing it properly is simply beyond the skillset that most players are comfortable with. Madness requires less brains.

 

Madness is mobile. Lightning is not. Madness does more damage. Madness has more self heals. Madness is flat out better. So no, Lightning is not fine for PvP. It's better than Merc Pyro, but as I said before - attaining equivalence with a horrible pvp sybclass is not the goal.

 

this is just bullsh*t.

 

You mean the part where you demonstrated you don't understand what TTK is?

 

Do you even realize what you are saying?

 

Sure. I just repeated it above. I'll say it again. You don't understand what TTK is.

 

How the hell did you even reach that conclusion?

 

I used your own claim that the Merc's ranged advantage depends only on time. That clearly ignores a slower TTK's conversion of that time advantage into what really matters - a smaller health advantage.