Damage Dropping In 3.0

[Halinalle]

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

 

I'm blind.

[Quraswren]

I'm blind.

 

At least you understood it wasn't a question.

 

So there is that.

[Lotharofxev]

Would not the obvious and much simpler solution simply been to tweak the bosses in Nim DF / DP? Add 200,000 health, shorten the enrage timer by 30 seconds. That sort of thing.

 

This way, players still need to (legitimately) progress, gear and levels mean something, and the overwhelming majority of players ARE NOT AFFECTED in a NEGATIVE manner.

 

Players would still go back at 60 to do DF / DP (even in SM), much the way now they do SM TFB and SM S & V. Another mechanism to obtain comms and keep people at their monitor.

 

What am I missing here? Why does that NOT make sense?

[Malastare]

Really? Why don't you list some of the more relevant parts to the discussion then?

 

Maybe the fact that mob health/armor is also being changed? Even with the DPS rescale, TTK on leveling planets is dropping and that its going to increase on Bosses in Nightmare Ops. Best assumption says that TTK is not changing on Daily areas.

[Lotharofxev]

Maybe the fact that mob health/armor is also being changed?

 

Where in the Twitch stream did they say that?

 

Even with the DPS rescale, TTK on leveling planets is dropping and that its going to increase on Bosses in Nightmare Ops.

 

So DPS goes DOWN, but TTK drops as well? Where in the stream did they say that?

 

 

Best assumption says that TTK is not changing on Daily areas.

 

Assumption.

[Savej]

Maybe the fact that mob health/armor is also being changed? Even with the DPS rescale, TTK on leveling planets is dropping and that its going to increase on Bosses in Nightmare Ops. Best assumption says that TTK is not changing on Daily areas.

 

 

 

says who? Where?

[Halinalle]

At least you understood it wasn't a question.

 

So there is that.

 

... But my hearing is perfectly fine. In fact I have better and more sensitive hearing than those who claim to be "normal".

 

says who? Where?

 

Watch the stream.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Halinalle

[Malastare]

Would not the obvious and much simpler solution simply been to tweak the bosses in Nim DF / DP? Add 200,000 health, shorten the enrage timer by 30 seconds. That sort of thing.

 

...

 

What am I missing here? Why does that NOT make sense?

 

You're missing the fact that the gear that is currently used in Nim DF/DP is now going to be gear used for leveling 56-60. If you keep the damage on that gear the same, you need to increase the armor and HP of every mob in the expansion. It means the expansion has a drastic upslope in difficulty that will require gear upgrades to accommodate. That's fine for people who are running Nim DF/DP now, but for ordinary players, it means the game gets suddenly more difficult and if they don't have the cash/comms to do full gear upgrades, they're left with a gear grind just to play through the story.

 

Does that sound cool to you?

[Jimvinny]

They specifically mentioned that level 50 and below content would be rescaled. The fact that level55 content was excluded means that the most likely scenario is that level 55 content will NOT be rescaled, and couple with the DPs decrease, ttk will increase.

[Pagy]

no one has explained why lower numbers matter

 

except for the fact the numbers are lower and somehow affect their self-worth.

 

3.0 is coming no matter what. stay at 55 and we'll see how much of the game u play.

[Halinalle]

They specifically mentioned that level 50 and below content would be rescaled. The fact that level55 content was excluded means that the most likely scenario is that level 55 content will NOT be rescaled, and couple with the DPs decrease, ttk will increase.

 

In 3.0 level 55 as endgame is history. It's going to be "just another level before getting to level 60" just like 30, 48 and 51 are currently.

[Lotharofxev]

You're missing the fact that the gear that is currently used in Nim DF/DP is now going to be gear used for leveling 56-60

.

 

Well no duh, I don't expect raiders to level naked.

 

If you keep the damage on that gear the same, you need to increase the armor and HP of every mob in the expansion

.

 

That's a claim. WoW, EQ, et al, folks with better gear have an initial advantage. But nobody is knocked BACK simply because folks are raiding at the highest level.

 

It means the expansion has a drastic upslope in difficulty that will require gear upgrades to accommodate

.

 

No, you set the "baseline" of leveling MOBs appropriately. So that ALL can level. Even raiders accept that quest greens and blues will surpass their raid gear. But that quest greens and blues without some comm gear is not going to get you very far in HM . NiM.

 

That's fine for people who are running Nim DF/DP now, but for ordinary players, it means the game gets suddenly more difficult and if they don't have the cash/comms to do full gear upgrades, they're left with a gear grind just to play through the story

 

I sure hope you weren't one of the ones telling folks who thought Flagships were "too expensive" that they had plenty of time to save.

 

Leveling is easy. Gear grind is accepted. Comms are in no way, shape or form "difficult" to acquire.

 

Does that sound cool to you?

 

What does NOT sound cool is - "Hey, you're going to level 5 times to get right back to where you are now. Sorta."

[Heretic_LV]

I rarely write in this forum, but this is the case, where i was outraged enough to log in.

What the hell is this s**t? DPS decrease so that lvl 55 content can stay relevant? Most people had already enough of this and nobody needs or cares, if people face-roll DF/DP NM just like we do do it with KP and EV and EC (actually, people even with superior gear too many times are much to stupid in this one).

If i level up 5 more levels then i expect to be 5 more levels stronger and can melt faces and not get this idiotic "balancing" and "adjustment" of damage output. Oh no, someone will be able to do DP NM and have fun at the same time? No, it must not happen. Let us sell "expansion", get their money and make em waste more time on leveling up 5 more levels, but nothing will change. Suuuure.

Yes, i am raging and i don't i give a f**k what you are thinking about me. Have a nice day.

[Quraswren]

Maybe the fact that mob health/armor is also being changed? Even with the DPS rescale, TTK on leveling planets is dropping and that its going to increase on Bosses in Nightmare Ops. Best assumption says that TTK is not changing on Daily areas.

 

I think your confusing the level 50 and lower mob adjustment. Higher level mobs than that, will not get changed or adjusted as BW wants it to be a bit more difficult or stay difficult depending on your skill.

 

Your TTK will increase given the nerf, it will decrease if it is below level 50.

 

50 and higher content is being made harder in 186 gear and lower, not easier. When you get to level 60 and get 198 gear, it will be roughly the same TTK then.

 

Sure you can get that level 186 gear but it will have been nerfred come 3.0 and not do what it is currently doing in DF/DP or any other area of the game.

[Halinalle]

Well no duh, I don't expect raiders to level naked.

 

But they do operations naked or semi-naked currently because difficulty isn't at proper level.

[Malastare]

Maybe the fact that mob health/armor is also being changed? Even with the DPS rescale, TTK on leveling planets is dropping and that its going to increase on Bosses in Nightmare Ops. Best assumption says that TTK is not changing on Daily areas.

says who? Where?

 

A guy named Rob Hinkle. Maybe you've heard of him? He works with Eric Musco for a company called EA. Here's the handy transcript.

 

Rob: So one of the things that we’re doing is, effectively, all the mobs from, like, level 50 on down, all the mobs that you see out in the planetary content and in your Class missions, that kind of stuff, they’re actually all going to die faster.

 

Paraphrase: With the DPS rescale, TTK on sub-level-50 mobs is decreasing.

 

Rob: Sure, so the trick with that, of course, is relative to the players doing them now, [Nightmare DF/DP] might be getting a little more difficult, and that’s true. We will make some adjustments to counteract the Class differences

 

Paraphrase: With the DPS rescale, Nim DF/DP will be getting "a little" more difficult.

 

Now, there's no quantification on what "a little" is, but its interesting to note that they only talked about Nightmare Ops getting more difficult, no discussion on normal Ops, no mention at all of Level 50 or 55 Daily areas being more difficult. The assumption that they will be is just that: An assumption. Its also an assumption to assume they'll be adjusted to keep the current TTK, but at least that assumption doesn't require that that we also assume Eric and Rob were intentionally avoiding the topic.

[Jimvinny]

But they do operations naked or semi-naked currently because difficulty isn't at proper level.

 

This is ridiculous. No one is doing nim df/dp naked or semi naked. You're just making **** up now.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

16 man is a joke compared to 8 man because you have 10 dps / 2 tanks / 4 heals compared to 4 dps / 2 tanks / 2 heals. You essentially have 20% more dps, so yes it's going to be easier. And for NiM mode DF / DP, the Nightmare buff is now gone so the heal requirement is back to HM levels but you are overgeared for it if you've started picking up Dread Master stuff.

 

And in no way are we at the 1 million crit, 600k HP levels. We are talking about lvl 60 dps being what should be about 4700 dps being brought back to 4200 dps and heal crits going from what should be 14,000 back to 10,000.

 

And IMO, the dps levels are inflated a little bit because of the recent buffs to dps like Pyro PT, Madness Assassin, and the like. Not because they got the gear wrong, but like anything else BW does, they buff / nerf things way too much rather than doing very small incremental adjustments and tweaking them more often. Smaller changes more often would fix a lot of these issues.

 

The Council fight in DP is so much easier with 8 ppl. Of course, that's a different subject.

[Malastare]

I think your confusing the level 50 and lower mob adjustment. Higher level mobs than that, will not get changed or adjusted as BW wants it to be a bit more difficult or stay difficult depending on your skill.

 

Your TTK will increase given the nerf, it will decrease if it is below level 50.

 

That's not what they said. Read the transcript. They never said they were keeping the same HP. They never said they were increasing the difficulty of 51-55 quests. They said TTK of quests up to 50 was dropping, and TTK of Nightmare DF/DP was increasing. There is no other information. You and others are choosing to believe that no changes are being made, but you have no evidence to suggest that.

 

Maybe they wanted Ilum and Makeb to be harder than they are. That seems a bit counter-intuitive, but who knows? Maybe they want Oricon to be a Level 55 quest that gives out (what will be) Level 53-suitable gear and works best with Level 57 gear. I tend to guess that's not their intention, but I can't say for sure.

 

But then: Neither can you.

 

At least wait until we actually see the results before you start Doom & Glooming.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

I rarely write in this forum, but this is the case, where i was outraged enough to log in.

What the hell is this s**t? DPS decrease so that lvl 55 content can stay relevant? Most people had already enough of this and nobody needs or cares, if people face-roll DF/DP NM just like we do do it with KP and EV and EC (actually, people even with superior gear too many times are much to stupid in this one).

If i level up 5 more levels then i expect to be 5 more levels stronger and can melt faces and not get this idiotic "balancing" and "adjustment" of damage output. Oh no, someone will be able to do DP NM and have fun at the same time? No, it must not happen. Let us sell "expansion", get their money and make em waste more time on leveling up 5 more levels, but nothing will change. Suuuure.

Yes, i am raging and i don't i give a f**k what you are thinking about me. Have a nice day.

 

I agree with you. In fact, this subject has caused me to take a step back and ponder one question: Do I really want to keep playing SWTOR? I've barely touched the game since I heard the news. Why keep going? For me the game has been about building up my dps characters, (I only dps and I do it well). If I decide to continue then I'm losing about a year's worth of progress.

If dps was getting too high then all they needed to do was make the dps increase minimal from 55-60. Wouldn't that make more sense? Why go and undo what many have worked so hard at? Isn't the point of a MMO to progress?

I've logged around 200 days of game time just from 2.0 till now, (stopped playing shortly after launch). I've put in the work, but I've lost interest since Friday and I'm not even sure if I'll continue.

[Halinalle]

This is ridiculous. No one is doing nim df/dp naked or semi naked. You're just making **** up now.

 

I didn't say NiM DP/DF...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ToFMsDj6TY

 

Worst thing is that "semi-naked" thing isn't the best part of that. That's probably the funniest video I can find from Youtube.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Halinalle

[Jimvinny]

I agree with you. In fact, this subject has caused me to take a step back and ponder one question: Do I really want to keep playing SWTOR? I've barely touched the game since I heard the news. Why keep going? For me the game has been about building up my dps characters, (I only dps and I do it well). If I decide to continue then I'm losing about a year's worth of progress.

If dps was getting too high then all they needed to do was make the dps increase minimal from 55-60. Wouldn't that make more sense? Why go and undo what many have worked so hard at? Isn't the point of a MMO to progress?

I've logged around 200 days of game time just from 2.0 till now, (stopped playing shortly after launch). I've put in the work, but I've lost interest since Friday and I'm not even sure if I'll continue.

 

Tbh, this change is only really going to affect a small number of players in the long run. Only people doing progression raiding will see much difference in the day to day gameplay. I'm upset because I don't buy biowares mantra that DPs is too high, seeing that only a very small fraction of the player base can put out the damage required to down df/dp nim, and now bioware is trying to tell us we've all been doing too much.

 

Everyone else will still be able to use their 180 comm gear to level and do dailies, might take a couple minutes longer. But those of us still struggling to find the damage to down nim brontes and council are basically being told to go away and come back in several months when we're fully geared in the new top level of gear. Only then will we be back to where we are now damage wise.

[Jimvinny]

I didn't say NiM DP/DF...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ToFMsDj6TY

 

Worst thing is that "semi-naked" thing isn't the best part of that. That's probably the funniest video I can find from Youtube.

 

 

Sorry can't watch the video. Regardless, talking about doing raids other than the top level is senseless. Overhearing a lower level of raid and doing it in only bits of gear means nothing. Content is going to get out leveled and outgeared.

[Tallwyn]

That will get you close if there were no other changes in the system. We already know that we lost the 3% accuracy from our trees and I believe they said that accuracy rating was getting buffed slightly to compensate. How much is unknown, so we don't know much power are we are going to lose to get back to 100% accuracy. You also have to factor in the new abilities and / or changes to base damage on existing abilities which hasn't been fully divulged yet. So doing the math with what you know now, is probably not going to be all that accurate.

 

Thats true, and if you would have read my previous posts, i alreday mentioned all of this changes. I obvuously can't get exact DPS numbers for any class ATM, nor am i attempting to do so. All i want to do is see what the total stats budgets are for 198 gear and if it is at all possible, using the current formulas to calculate % stats, to get the "caps" at level 60.

 

If that is the case and the max base, tech or force damage also increase (which im quite sure they will), then i will assume that the DPS also goes up.

 

The only way one could do less DPS is either:

- damage calculation formulas for the skills are changed to lower the damage done of skills,

- skill % from rating formulas are changed to lower % gained from rating,

- both.

 

This may very well be the case in the end, but untill we know for sure, anyone claiming one way or the other is just baseing it on their beliefs.

 

There are quite a few unknowns like new raidwide buffs, new raidwide debuffs for bosses and changes from the new discipline/utility skills systems and how they will influence the overall DPS of the classes, but i am currently unable to account for these factors.

[Transcendent]

In fact, this subject has caused me to take a step back and ponder one question: Do I really want to keep playing SWTOR? I've barely touched the game since I heard the news. Why keep going? For me the game has been about building up my dps characters, (I only dps and I do it well). If I decide to continue then I'm losing about a year's worth of progress.

 

You're not alone in your line of thought. Part of an MMO is partly about progression, if you remove numbers and all other arguements etc aside then what does this leave you with.

 

Story I guess, assuming the new content is written for each class that's 8 runs for the story. After that? Nothing much, you're pretty much left with a gear grind to get back (or slightly above going on some of the numbers in the thread) the level you were at pre 3.0. That's not really progression, that's simply working to regain where you were already at.

 

Kind of loses the fun part once you remove the story out of the equation.