Damage Dropping In 3.0

[Lotharofxev]

Somebody nailed it when they said, "They want to keep DF/DP relevant" or words to that effect.

 

Don't understand how people can't see this as the nerf it is. As you PROGRESS from 50-60, you will hit Oricon. Post 3.0 at level 55 you will be weaker than 55s now. Hell, 60's will be where 55's are now.

 

WoW was merely a stat squish NOT a nerf as Blizzard (smartly) adjusted health on MOBs as well. There has been NO indication that this is the case w/ SWTOR. (This company is terribad at PR and promotions. One wonders where the 300 million + earned over the past two years went. Re-skinning cartel items I suppose)

 

DF/DP should've been allowed to go the route of TFB. Sadly, this was not the case.

[Halinalle]

Somebody nailed it when they said, "They want to keep DF/DP relevant" or words to that effect.

 

Don't understand how people can't see this as the nerf it is. As you PROGRESS from 50-60, you will hit Oricon. Post 3.0 at level 55 you will be weaker than 55s now. Hell, 60's will be where 55's are now.

 

WoW was merely a stat squish NOT a nerf as Blizzard (smartly) adjusted health on MOBs as well. There has been NO indication that this is the case w/ SWTOR. (This company is terribad at PR and promotions. One wonders where the 300 million + earned over the past two years went. Re-skinning cartel items I suppose)

 

DF/DP should've been allowed to go the route of TFB. Sadly, this was not the case.

 

Please, go and watch the latest stream from their Twitch page.

 

Or, actually let me help you with that since it seems that it's way too difficult nowadays for many players.

http://www.twitch.tv/swtor/c/5401305

Edited November 4, 2014 by Halinalle

[Lotharofxev]

Watched their stream. Three minutes in, the out of shape one on the left said, "Players at 60 will be about where players are at 55 now".

 

So yeah, confirmed what I said.

 

To reiterate my point I made in another thread, "The brainiacs who couldn't understand their own buffs and nerfs to classes and set the 'baseline' (the correct word would've been ceiling, but that proves my point again) are the same ones who are fixing the mess they created."

 

On a side note, SM's latest Civ looked interesting.

[Whojoo]

How about we do the following:

1. Wait for 3.0 to launch

2. See the changes with your own eyes instead complaining now without seeing the actual numbers.

[Lotharofxev]

How about we do the following:

1. Wait for 3.0 to launch

2. See the changes with your own eyes instead complaining now without seeing the actual numbers.

 

1. How about no.

2. Think about this statement.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Lotharofxev
Forgot something

[ZETA_SCORPII]

Forget about the expansion and let's say the devs just decided to nerf everyone and drop us into 156 gear. Would the people who are defending Bioware's nerf support this as well? Guess what? This is essentially what is happening.

[Halinalle]

Forget about the expansion and let's say the devs just decided to nerf everyone and drop us into 156 gear. Would the people who are defending Bioware's nerf support this as well? Guess what? This is essentially what is happening.

 

It's not the same thing.

[ZETA_SCORPII]

It's not the same thing.

 

Yes, it is. This isn't a stat squish, it is a nerf. Why don't you get it?

[Halinalle]

it is a nerf.

 

It's not a nerf. They are reduding the dps, not nerfing it.

 

Nerf would be:

- Reduce damage output

- Keep content unchanged

[Lotharofxev]

Nerf would be:

- Reduce damage output

- Keep content unchanged

 

Right. It's a nerf.

[Orizuru]

On a side note, SM's latest Civ looked interesting.

 

Its just a reskin of Civ V with less polish. Same engine, same mechanics with different names, and less features.

 

And can we let the semantics argument go? Whether it is or isn't a nerf is irrelevant. The change is planned to happen either way and the label you place upon it really doesn't matter. You can call it a fish for all I care, and the end result will still be the same.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Orizuru

[ZETA_SCORPII]

It's not a nerf. They are reduding the dps, not nerfing it.

 

Nerf would be:

- Reduce damage output

- Keep content unchanged

 

Uh........

[Quraswren]

It's not a nerf. They are reduding the dps, not nerfing it.

 

Nerf would be:

- Reduce damage output

- Keep content unchanged

 

I'm starting to think you really don't know whats about to happen to you.

 

3.0 - They are going to lessen your damage in 186 gear and anyone lower than that will most likly feel the pinch too.

 

You will level to 60 but not actually level up. It will look like you did with all the bells and whistles but all you actually did was made it back to where you were at 55 pre-3.0

 

You just got nerfed so BW can keep DF/DP still reasonable difficult at a so called level 60. TO bad it was all designed and balanced as if it was 55. They do not want something akin to a level 55 rolling 50 content. They do not want a level 60 rolling level 55 DF/DP - So everyone gets a nerf to keep stats at 55 while we look like we are 60.

 

It's a joke in a progression based game. It's not being done for balance or because DPS was too high. I refuse to believe BW is that stupid as to not get the metrics right and then suddenly claim "OH we need to fix it now because it got out of hand."

 

If that is true, then it means their metrics faulty and why should I believe they will get anything right from here on out given they will use the same metrics to balance again.

 

It's a nerf to everyone to keep DF/DP around and turned leveling into the illusion of leveling. Nothing more.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Quraswren

[LincolnWithHat]

It's not a nerf. They are reduding the dps, not nerfing it.

 

Nerf would be:

- Reduce damage output

- Keep content unchanged

 

I'm afraid I've got some bad news...

[Halinalle]

You just got nerfed so BW can keep DF/DP still reasonable difficult at a so called level 60.

 

Source?

 

Are they buffing NiM DP/DF?

Edited November 4, 2014 by Halinalle

[Quraswren]

Source?

 

The entire expansion with DF/DP still around as if it was relevant content. The new OPS droping gear that acts as if it was level 55 content now.

 

Leveling up to bring you back to 55 and BW claiming DF/DP will be an alternate way to gear up.

 

It's pretty much in everything BW has said and why DF/DP will still be around come 3.0 at level 60. They do not want to rolling that DF/DP at 60 like you do now with a 55 in 50 content. If you can play at all, it makes it to easy. Thats why gear progressions and leveling are basically a joke this time around.

 

 

Are they buffing NiM DP/DF?

 

No, they are nerfing everyone to keep it at a similar difficulty so level 60 will be as if you were 55 now. Level 55's will have a bit harder time due to the nerfing.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Quraswren

[Tallwyn]

I would like to jump into this debate to say that i dont think that the dps will go down by that much. I think its more a case of poor communication, poorly expressing themselves on the stream then an actual "big" nerf.

 

They are removing "passive stat boosts" specifically mentioning the 3% accuracy talent, which almost every dps nowadays takes to cap the 10% accuracy, alongside crit/alacrity and other such passive buffs, probably including Main stats buffs aswell (9% aim/cunning and 6% willpower/strenght).

 

They mentioned that: "when you log into 3.0, your character will do slightly less damage then it did before." This can be a direct result of the forementioned missing % stat buffs, which will no longer be available.

 

I also took a very close look at the Character Stats screen they briefly shown. Probably by accident, they put the mous over the Mainhand weapon, a sniper rifle (198 rating) with the following stats:

941-1150 damage

266 end

240 cunning

1395 tech power

171 power

120 surge

 

The weapon had no crystal and no augment equipped, and i guess neither did the other gear. This is exactly 139 higher Max dmg compared to the 186 rating sniper rifle, not counting increased power/cunning/surge

 

His total stats with full buffs and no stim were:

3601 Cunning

*4028 Endurance

360 Accuracy - *4,65%

*945 Crit rating - *13,57%

360 Surge - *18.10%

 

To my knowledge, alacrity was not shown. I will write down the exact % when i get home and recheck the values with a * infront of them, as i dont have em with me at work. I input those numbers into the current stats calc formulas, increasing max lvl to 60, and they give the exact same percentages as shown on the stream.

 

Obviously, this can always be adjusted on their side, but atm, i would hardly call this a nerf. Its just that we will have to figure out anew, how much accuracy/surge/alacrity and power/crit is BIS when the expansion hits. We sure will need to reevaluate those stats, as they also mentioned in the stream, and i think thats what they tried to tell.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Tallwyn
Grammatical errors

[Halinalle]

No, they are nerfing everyone to keep it at a similar difficulty so level 60 will be as if you were 55 now. Level 55's will have a bit harder time due to the nerfing.

 

Do you know what will happen during those 5 levels other than your numbers going up?

 

Accuracy. At level 60 level 55 mobs can barely hit you. There's your difficulty.

Basic game mechanics. Learn them.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Halinalle

[ZETA_SCORPII]

I'm starting to think you really don't know whats about to happen to you.

 

3.0 - They are going to lessen your damage in 186 gear and anyone lower than that will most likly feel the pinch too.

 

You will level to 60 but not actually level up. It will look like you did with all the bells and whistles but all you actually did was made it back to where you were at 55 pre-3.0

 

You just got nerfed so BW can keep DF/DP still reasonable difficult at a so called level 60. TO bad it was all designed and balanced as if it was 55. They do not want something akin to a level 55 rolling 50 content. They do not want a level 60 rolling level 55 DF/DP - So everyone gets a nerf to keep stats at 55 while we look like we are 60.

 

It's a joke in a progression based game. It's not being done for balance or because DPS was too high. I refuse to believe BW is that stupid as to not get the metrics right and then suddenly claim "OH we need to fix it now because it got out of hand."

 

If that is true, then it means their metrics faulty and why should I believe they will get anything right from here on out given they will use the same metrics to balance again.

 

It's a nerf to everyone to keep DF/DP around and turned leveling into the illusion of leveling. Nothing more.

 

This ^

[Lotharofxev]

Had to add Hallinall to the ol 'ignore' list. Dude maintains for multiple posts that there's no 'nerf', then when it's explained to him he wants a source. (I'd go listen to their 1 hour twitch video, but that's just me).

 

EDIT:

I refuse to believe BW is that stupid as to not get the metrics right and then suddenly claim "OH we need to fix it now because it got out of hand."

 

If that is true, then it means their metrics faulty and why should I believe they will get anything right from here on out given they will use the same metrics to balance again.

 

This, to me, is the double money shot. For them to say DPS is "too high" is a tacit admission that they don't know what they're doing. (Since it's their game).

 

If we accept THEIR premise that DPS is "too high" (Again they use baseline, when the term should be ceiling), then, why would we believe they can "fix the problem", when in essence they caused the problem?

 

As an aside, why the significant emotional attachment to DF / DP? It's old content. People won't be crushing HM DF / DP just like many folks aren't crushing HM TFB.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Lotharofxev
Forgot something

[Quraswren]

SNIP...

 

Obviously, this can always be adjusted on their side, but atm, i would hardly call this a nerf. Its just that we will have to figure out anew, how much accuracy/surge/alacrity and power/crit is BIS when the expansion hits. We sure will need to reevaluate those stats, as they also mentioned in the stream.

 

I think the nerf comes from multiple areas, ones players can figure out through stat distribution but also nerfs on the backside we cant do much about.

 

Come 3.0, you will do less damage and it will make some content harder to do for most players.

 

You will go through the motions to level to 60 but it will be just an illusion. You will get new gear up to 198 and you will be right back where you were at 55 pre-3.0

 

You are not going nowhere. BW has manipulated the backside of things to accomplish this along with removing +% to main stats and removing accuracy so you are now forced to get more accuracy on gear. If you have to get more accuracy, you will lose another stat - thus lowering your DPS.

 

You're getting hit from multiple ways to lower your DPS so they can keep DF/DP at a similar difficulty at level 60 to keep it as an alternate way to gear up. I expect that would be comms over gear but they do not want you going through it like a 55 does 50 content. So things are kept in a relative state of 55, even at 60 so it all remains difficult but the problem is so do you.

 

It's like you never progressed at all with 5 level and a new OPS.

[Halinalle]

I've heard way too many times that 16m is a joke, especially for DPS because damage output is so high.

Healers can kill adds while DPS stays on boss...

 

Do you guys really want 1 million crits and 600k hp?

Edited November 4, 2014 by Halinalle

[Quraswren]

I've heard way too many times that 16m is a joke, especially for DPS because damage output is so high.

Healers can kill adds while DPS stays on boss...

 

Do you guys really want 1 million crits and 600k hp?

 

We're so off from that it would take 10+ years at this pace we are going to reach that. Power creep is no where near that bad for the short time this game has been out.

 

Had to add Hallinall to the ol 'ignore' list. Dude maintains for multiple posts that there's no 'nerf', then when it's explained to him he wants a source. (I'd go listen to their 1 hour twitch video, but that's just me).

 

I'm not going to ignore him. I just don't think he understands the whole scope of this.

 

EDIT:

 

This, to me, is the double money shot. For them to say DPS is "too high" is a tacit admission that they don't know what they're doing. (Since it's their game).

 

If we accept THEIR premise that DPS is "too high" (Again they use baseline, when the term should be ceiling), then, why would we believe they can "fix the problem", when in essence they caused the problem?

 

As an aside, why the significant emotional attachment to DF / DP? It's old content. People won't be crushing HM DF / DP just like many folks aren't crushing HM TFB.

 

You got my line of thinking right.

 

My guess would be there is not enough new content overall. You'll level up through the story and the new OPS will be relatively short but difficult. To difficult for most at 60. Gamers will need another area thats a little more familiar to get ultimate comms so they can suppliment their gear. Trying to get back to where they were at 55.

 

BW doesn't want to rely on just the 2 new OPS and they do not want you rolling through DF/DP as we do now when most competent players hit level 50 content at 55. (some content gamers still have trouble on not withstanding but lets be honest, BW isn't worried about that gamer.) They want it to keep some form of difficulty. So they knock everyone back 2 steps to start and after leveling to 60, we only gain one back.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Quraswren

[Tallwyn]

I think the nerf comes from multiple areas, ones players can figure out through stat distribution but also nerfs on the backside we cant do much about.

 

Come 3.0, you will do less damage and it will make some content harder to do for most players.

 

You will go through the motions to level to 60 but it will be just an illusion. You will get new gear up to 198 and you will be right back where you were at 55 pre-3.0

 

You are not going nowhere. BW has manipulated the backside of things to accomplish this along with removing +% to main stats and removing accuracy so you are now forced to get more accuracy on gear. If you have to get more accuracy, you will lose another stat - thus lowering your DPS.

 

You're getting hit from multiple ways to lower your DPS so they can keep DF/DP at a similar difficulty at level 60 to keep it as an alternate way to gear up. I expect that would be comms over gear but they do not want you going through it like a 55 does 50 content. So things are kept in a relative state of 55, even at 60 so it all remains difficult but the problem is so do you.

 

It's like you never progressed at all with 5 level and a new OPS.

 

Leveling up may be a illusion for you, its mostly fun for me, but thats besides the point

 

I will need more proof then you claiming that lvl 60 in BIS 198 gear post 3.0 <= lvl 55 in BIS 186 gear pre 3.0

 

Ive already shown you that the stat increases are quire big. Ive also explained that ATM, judging by the stream alone, and so are you BTW, no nerfs are comming our way from % stats calc formulas. On the stream, they also mentioned that Accuracy rating may get a slight buff as to cover the gap, and they are thinking about reevaluating crit rating aswell.

 

And yes, obviously we will have to get more accuracy rating. Do you maybe forget that this was the case with the transition from 50 to 55 aswell? It was bound to happen this time around, even if we will have to stack it on a much bigger scale. My guess is, that with the new Augments, we will easilly be able to overcome the deficit of the 3% accuracy and other stats.

 

When i get home i will reevaluate my data, do some number crunching and see how much DPS we really lose. I would really like to see some concrete data from your side, as it seems all we get is your opinion with nothing backing it up.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Tallwyn

[Halinalle]

You'll level up through he story and the new OPS will be relatively short but difficult. To difficult for most at 60.

 

And hopefully DDs learn how to play their role, again. Not just blame healer/tank for not doing DDs role.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Halinalle