Please, change the rules for "Needing" on gear.

[azudelphi]

My point is that no one needs the loot on a roll. They simply want it or they do not want it. They may want it for coin, or for use, but it is still a desire for the item.

 

That desire is fairly represented, IMO, buy a simple loot roll, and your choice to demonstrate a desire to have it or not. A need option is not necessary to the system.

 

But, generally, even with the system as it exists being imperfect, most recognize that there are degrees of desire to have it or not. Desire to vendor is generally accepted as being a lower priority desire than a desire to use.

 

And a class restricted option takes the system from allowing ninja'ing, to allowing class specific ninja'ing...

 

I still maintain, the best thing you can do before you roll need is talk to the group. With that, generally these issues shouldn't come up.

[TheCardinal]

I have noticed a trend during the last 10-15 threads discussing the lootsystem.

 

The ones with signatures confirming they are members of a guild and those with a handle that I know are in a guild are usually in favor of the current system. It might be beacuse those never have to experience what true pug gearing actually is. It might be only me that sees this, but it is something I have picked up along the way the latest loot threads or so.

 

I am guilded but I also enjoy the freedom of several guildless characters, the guilded characters has no problem at all gearing up since everyone respects the lootrules. The unguilded characters however has much more problems gearing up since no matter what is agreed upon at start, players do need on items that their current character can not use. This is very common with groupfinder teams.

 

I think it is important to have those two perspectives when talking about the current lootsystem, to truely gear up 10 characters through pugs up to 168-180 gear is a interesting experience.

 

Sad that this has to happen, altho most of my char are guilded, most of my time I don't do FP's with my guild, I'm using the GF like all else, Can't say that I've seen the problem that extensive that ppl abouse the NEED part all that often, most of the time ppl do ask, and more me it's oki, if I feel I need it, I will NEED on it, but I do it only for the char I play on not for alts.

 

No matter how we think or view things someone will always find a way to make things work there way no matter what BW does, as for me this system does work, if you miss on the loot, you still get coms that you can buy what you need in the end, so fiddle on this part of the game too, thanks but I'd rather have it as it is.

 

As for gearing 10 char, Ain't that a bit over the top ?. granted I have 11 char that 55 atm.

I've geared 7 of them, but not to tfull 168/180 since for me I see no need for it, no one can play that many at one given time anyway, beside, then you geared them all what then

 

Regardless of subject, someone somewhere will always think that something should change since they feel wronged by the way said thing works, so, some here said over 3 years time ppl have wanted a change, I've been here since Beta testing......

 

How many of the TOTAL player base do you think this warrent a change that a new group will argue should change want this, 5% ? 10%.......

 

No game can ever cater to all needs, just like me that I don't like the 3.0 change, I too have a choice, suck it up or move on, same here, suck it up or move on.....

[Drockter]

My point is that no one needs the loot on a roll. They simply want it or they do not want it. They may want it for coin, or for use, but it is still a desire for the item.

 

That desire is fairly represented, IMO, buy a simple loot roll, and your choice to demonstrate a desire to have it or not. A need option is not necessary to the system.

 

Well, the intent behind need/greed actually addresses that. Yes we want the drop for use or for coin. A person who wanted the item to use, received a higher priority than those who wanted it for coin. That was the original intent. So people could gear when necessary.

 

I happen to agree with that philosophy... I may want a particular drop to sell it (I could always use credits), hence I generally roll greed on anything that isnt a direct upgrade to that character's (not comps/ alts) gear. So if someone rolls need it is assumed (under the intention of the system) that the character rolling need, needs the drop (improvement on gear) in the cases where this is true... there is never a problem.

 

In the cases where people are rolling need for an item either a) beneath their current gear level, or b) off spec for their character (i.e. a trooper rolling need on a willpower piece), this is where the whole problem is.

 

Now, the argument presented is that they "need" it for an alt or companion character. However, the other players on the team have no way of verifying this. So it appears that the player is gaming the system so they get the loot to sell.

 

Now, most of the time this can be solved via communication... asking the rest of the team if it is ok to need a particular item for a comp/alt, or as another poster recommended going into the team saying something like "Hey, I'm going to need on Aim gear for my trooper alt, but will pass/greed on anything else I'm already over leveled on this character".

 

Communication really is the key here. If you let the team know up front that you'll be needing on off spec items for a particular reason, I doubt that anyone will care... unless there is a character in mission that needs those items for themselves as a direct gear upgrade. In the example above, Sage informs team that they want to need on Trooper gear ... but there is a trooper on the team that really needs the upgrade... they may object (imo, rightfully so) that they should get the gear.

[Thoronmir]

During a brief series of Esseles runs last night, I was in a group with a Vanguard and the Custom Aim Shield dropped. I waited to see what the others rolled. They each rolled Greed, including the Vanguard. I pointed out to the group that the Vanguard could probably use that shield, but if not, I'd like to roll Need to use it with my Companion. The Vanguard said he already had it, and really just wanted it for the mods. We agreed that I would roll Need, get the shield for Qyzen, then send him comparable mods from my crafters. Win/win and no drama.

 

System working as intended (when applied by reasonable operators).

[Anzel]

I have 15 characters. Each of them has 5 or more companions. All of them need gear. I need everything.

[Icestar]

As for gearing 10 char, Ain't that a bit over the top ?. granted I have 11 char that 55 atm. I've geared 7 of them, but not to tfull 168/180 since for me I see no need for it, no one can play that many at one given time anyway, beside, then you geared them all what then

 

Interesting feedback, I actually asked "what then?" a while back. I really like this game and I always play efficient, I do agree that I have no use for most of my characters but then again it was fun leveling and gearing them up. I will not be able to do the same in the expansion though since I have changed job and have less time to play nowdays.

 

That is one of the reasons I would like to see a change in the loot system. I like to gear up a character then move on to the nextone, if possible send old items (NOT taken by need for that character) to a alt. When you have lots of characters and use legacygear it is easier then people think to gear up characters. A better lootsystem will ensure that when I play my character I get what it needs and items does not end up on other players alts or companions.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Icestar

[LordArtemis]

But, generally, even with the system as it exists being imperfect, most recognize that there are degrees of desire to have it or not. Desire to vendor is generally accepted as being a lower priority desire than a desire to use.

 

And a class restricted option takes the system from allowing ninja'ing, to allowing class specific ninja'ing...

 

I still maintain, the best thing you can do before you roll need is talk to the group. With that, generally these issues shouldn't come up.

 

I cant argue against either point. The best case scenario, IMO, would have been to prevent folks gaming the need system. One way to prevent that is to get folks to agree at the start to all vote need...that is what I do, and it works quite well.

 

Yes, some folks have a better use than simply selling the item. But it my eyes you provide a system that gives a fair chance to all players, and that means either no need option OR a need option that actually works properly.

 

A simple loot roll can not be gamed. A loot roll with greed and need can be gamed. If that is a concern, the easiest and most sensible solution IMO is to remove need. Otherwise it is best for all players to redesign need to work as it should.

 

All my opinion of course.

[Grayseven]

I'd rather they just change the description to "Want", "Don't care" and "Don't want".

[Darth_Wicked]

I'd rather they just change the description to "Want", "Don't care" and "Don't want".

 

The end-result would be the same I think.

 

People would still "Need" or "Want" for companions for example.

[Vashforth]

The end-result would be the same I think.

 

People would still "Need" or "Want" for companions for example.

 

Agreed, I could only see it working IF the "Need" button is replaced with a "Want" button if the item is not for your class. Having "Need" take priority ofc.

 

Completely pointless IMO. Just grey out "Need" and have them have to greed it.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Vashforth

[Grayseven]

I say this simply because people seem to believe their definition of "Need" is the same as everyone else's definition.

 

So what if they Need on an item for a companion...it still fits the definition of need. Some people seem to think that some unwritten rule set applies when in fact it doesn't exist.

 

When you run a PuG, you simply have to expect this. Instead of whining about it, roll Need yourself unless you don't care.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Grayseven

[Deewe]

Short version: make items how it binds be determined on how it was rolled on.

 

Long version:

• Need = BoP that you can only use on your character
  
  • Can't use it on companions
    
  • Can't use it on alts
    
  • Can't remove mods or eventually can only move them to the same character.
    
  • Can't sell it
    

  [*]Greed = BoL

 

An option is to make BoL, once used, stuck to the character and its alts it has been used on.

Long term, there could be in game systems to unbind gear to allow one transfer between alts.

 

Finally the system could also be made that you can't need if your equipped gear has a higher rating than the looted one

 

 

--- ---

 

Then but for gear it should be made that if anybody needs and you already cast a greed vote you are prompted a need/greed again.

 

<<source>>

[Grayseven]

Short version: make items how it binds be determined on how it was rolled on.

 

Long version:

• Need = BoP that you can only use on your character
  
  • Can't use it on companions
    
  • Can't use it on alts
    
  • Can't remove mods or eventually can only move them to the same character.
    
  • Can't sell it
    

  [*]Greed = BoL

 

An option is to make BoL, once used, stuck to the character and its alts it has been used on.

Long term, there could be in game systems to unbind gear to allow one transfer between alts.

 

Finally the system could also be made that you can't need if your equipped gear has a higher rating than the looted one

 

 

--- ---

 

Then but for gear it should be made that if anybody needs and you already cast a greed vote you are prompted a need/greed again.

 

<<source>>

 

Why? Most gear you roll on is BoP, which can then be traded around your toons with Legacy gear. The stuff that isn't BoP typically isn't worth anything except as vendor trash.

 

You are advocating a system that is overly complex to solve a non-issue because...why? Nothing is as simple as "just making it so".

 

The system is fine as it is when you realize that not everyone playing the game looks at the need and greed definitions like you do.

[Code_Airwolf]

Here's from the SWTOR online game manual:

 

Loot Rolls

 

When the group picks up a unique item, by default, all members have the opportunity to roll for the item. When an item is put up for a roll, a window appears displaying the item. A green meter counts down how much time you have to roll for the item. Select NEED or GREED to roll for the item, and a random number is generated for every group member. The player with the highest number is awarded the item. If you want a good chance at securing the item, select NEED. Otherwise, choose GREED if you want to give the other members a better chance at obtaining the item.

 

 

That's it. If you want a good chance, select NEED. If not, select GREED. That's what all it says. Everything else about when you should take Need, when you shouldn't, for your character only, not companion shouldn't be for an alt you better choose greed if it's not for that character blah blah blah all interjected by the community. But the fact of the matter is, the player determines if they want it or not, based on their definition of "need". If their "need" is different from your "need" well that's too bad.

 

This is why I still say get rid of greed & need if everyone gets their underwear in a bunch over it for 3+ years. Everybody should be in on the roll. Whoever gets it gets it, and if you didn't want it or someone else did and convinces you to give it to them you trade it to them, takes 5 seconds.

 

Perhaps there are two options, roll or pass. I suggested that earlier. Although thinking about it more, we'd STILL probably have these threads for another 3 years I guess about why people should have passed, don't roll if it's for your Alt or companions.......and we'd be back to square one.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Code_Airwolf

[robertthebard]

Here's from the SWTOR online game manual:

 

Loot Rolls

 

When the group picks up a unique item, by default, all members have the opportunity to roll for the item. When an item is put up for a roll, a window appears displaying the item. A green meter counts down how much time you have to roll for the item. Select NEED or GREED to roll for the item, and a random number is generated for every group member. The player with the highest number is awarded the item. If you want a good chance at securing the item, select NEED. Otherwise, choose GREED if you want to give the other members a better chance at obtaining the item.

 

 

That's it. If you want a good chance, select NEED. If not, select GREED. That's what all it says. Everything else about when you should take Need, when you shouldn't, for your character only, not companion shouldn't be for an alt you better choose greed if it's not for that character blah blah blah all interjected by the community. But the fact of the matter is, the player determines if they want it or not, based on their definition of "need". If their "need" is different from your "need" well that's too bad.

 

This is why I still say get rid of greed & need if everyone gets their underwear in a bunch over it for 3+ years. Everybody should be in on the roll. Whoever gets it gets it, and if you didn't want it or someone else did and convinces you to give it to them you trade it to them, takes 5 seconds.

 

Perhaps there are two options, roll or pass. I suggested that earlier. Although thinking about it more, we'd STILL probably have these threads for another 3 years I guess about why people should have passed, don't roll if it's for your Alt or companions.......and we'd be back to square one.

 

You're exactly right, it's determined by the community, you know, those people you need in order to clear the content to get the drops in the first place. Don't **** where you eat is what we say around here. Doing so will come back to bite you in the ***.

[Code_Airwolf]

You're exactly right, it's determined by the community, you know, those people you need in order to clear the content to get the drops in the first place. Don't **** where you eat is what we say around here. Doing so will come back to bite you in the ***.

 

Don't give me a Braveheart speech speaking on behalf of everyone. Not determined by the community, interjected and imposed based on EACH PERSON'S INTERPRETATION and how THEY SEE IT. You are ONE member of the COMMUNITY. The community is all of the players who subscribe and/or pay as they go. What each player determines as what is Need is up to the individual player, also of the community.

 

If the community as a whole was all on the same page, we wouldn't have these ridiculous threads for over 3 years and still going strong. I'm not even partial to one or the other, I understand the premise behind trying to have these interpreted rules, but the simple fact of the matter is everyone is never going to be on the same page, to each his/her own as to what they feel the definition of "need" is be damned other people's interpretations and self-imposed rules, if they even are aware they exist in the first place. Thus why the only way it ever goes away is just flat out rolls and if you didn't want it or want to give it to somebody else, trade it. If you wanted it and didn't get it, oh well, live to see another day, roll another roll. Life goes on.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Code_Airwolf

[azudelphi]

Don't give me a Braveheart speech speaking on behalf of everyone. Not determined by the community, interjected and imposed based on EACH PERSON'S INTERPRETATION and how THEY SEE IT. You are ONE member of the COMMUNITY. The community is all of the players who subscribe and/or pay as they go. What each player determines as what is Need is up to the individual player, also of the community.

 

If the community as a whole was all on the same page, we wouldn't have these ridiculous threads for over 3 years and still going strong.

 

Few things are settled where there is choice.

[Deewe]

Why? Most gear you roll on is BoP, which can then be traded around your toons with Legacy gear. The stuff that isn't BoP typically isn't worth anything except as vendor trash.

 

You are advocating a system that is overly complex to solve a non-issue because...why? Nothing is as simple as "just making it so".

 

The system is fine as it is when you realize that not everyone playing the game looks at the need and greed definitions like you do.

Thing is with BoP people that don't really need it can roll for it and just sell it.

 

Such system mostly prevents it.

 

And it's not that complicated, actually it's pretty simple: you roll need = you're gonna use it on your character.

[robertthebard]

Don't give me a Braveheart speech speaking on behalf of everyone. Not determined by the community, interjected and imposed based on EACH PERSON'S INTERPRETATION and how THEY SEE IT. You are ONE member of the COMMUNITY. The community is all of the players who subscribe and/or pay as they go. What each player determines as what is Need is up to the individual player, also of the community.

 

If the community as a whole was all on the same page, we wouldn't have these ridiculous threads for over 3 years and still going strong. I'm not even partial to one or the other, the simple fact of the matter is everyone is never going to be on the same page, to each his/her own as to what they feel the definition of "need" is be damned other people's interpretations and self-imposed rules, and thus why the only way it ever goes away is just flat out rolls and if you didn't want it or want to give it to somebody else, trade it. If you wanted it and didn't get it, oh well, live to see another day, roll another roll. Life goes on.

 

You are, of course, correct, if the whole of the community was on the same page, you know, following social "rules" in a social situation, we wouldn't have threads like this. Instead, we have people that believe the only rule is "I want it, I'm getting it". It's not their faults, entirely, they learned it somewhere, but the fact is, it doesn't matter. The community, as a whole, isn't on the same page.

 

In another MMO I play, the drops are randomly distributed. There are no rolls, and there is no bound gear. If you didn't get it, you can try to trade it, or buy it from the person that did. In another MMO I play, if you can't equip the gear, Need is greyed out. This is the system we should have in place here. It infuriates the ninjas something fierce, knowing they can't roll on everything so they can list it on their GTN equivalent, but it does ensure that somebody that may actually need that piece right now has a good chance to get it. I'd rather read 100 threads by them, crying about how much money they lose out on daily, than one thread about a guy that actually needs the gear being unable to get it because somebody else wants to put it on the GTN.

[azudelphi]

You are, of course, correct, if the whole of the community was on the same page, you know, following social "rules" in a social situation, we wouldn't have threads like this. Instead, we have people that believe the only rule is "I want it, I'm getting it". It's not their faults, entirely, they learned it somewhere, but the fact is, it doesn't matter. The community, as a whole, isn't on the same page.

 

In another MMO I play, the drops are randomly distributed. There are no rolls, and there is no bound gear. If you didn't get it, you can try to trade it, or buy it from the person that did. In another MMO I play, if you can't equip the gear, Need is greyed out. This is the system we should have in place here. It infuriates the ninjas something fierce, knowing they can't roll on everything so they can list it on their GTN equivalent, but it does ensure that somebody that may actually need that piece right now has a good chance to get it. I'd rather read 100 threads by them, crying about how much money they lose out on daily, than one thread about a guy that actually needs the gear being unable to get it because somebody else wants to put it on the GTN.

 

BoP gear can't be sold on the GTN... so that is kind of irrelevant.

[Grayseven]

Thing is with BoP people that don't really need it can roll for it and just sell it.

 

Such system mostly prevents it.

 

And it's not that complicated, actually it's pretty simple: you roll need = you're gonna use it on your character.

 

If I roll need I'm going to use it for a character, but it doesn't have to be the one I'm currently on. If I am rolling Need it's because I, the player, need it. Any other interpretation of need vs greed is a player invention and not a hard and fast rule. Face it, if it were meant to be a set rule then the system would be set up that way from the start.

 

In short, until EA/BW themselves define the system your take on need vs greed is just an opinion.

 

Of course, because I am a socially conscious player I always make sure others I am with don't need an item I'd like on the toon they are currently playing but when faced with a player that waits til everyone else rolls to need on an item I keep an eye on them and if they do it twice I initiate a vote kick or just roll need on everything from that point on after telling the others in the group that I am doing it.

 

And of course anything outside of gear is always rolled need to ensure I have a roll for tokens or deco.

 

Basically, the players take care of the issue themselves. There is no need for some complex roll + binding system for something as simple as loot.

[Levram]

The loot system is fine the way it is. It certainly works smoothly in the DF/DP hard mode and nightmare mode Operation community on The Shadowlands, including in PUG runs of that content (yes, there are nightmare DF and DP PUG runs.)

 

When I run such a group I give the same loot rules spiel as everyone else who runs that level of PUG content. "One set-bonus piece per person. Belt and bracers don't count. Implant, relic, off-hand and main-hand do (don't*) count as set-bonus. Need on all mats. One decoration of each kind per person." (*Depends on the group.) That's it. Five short sentences and we're off and running with not a peep about loot for the rest of the run.

 

Key points to note about those loot rules:

• No one cares if a person wins the set-bonus chest and sends it to their Alt's companion for that companion's off-spec. Anyone who is in the group has contributed to the clear of that boss and deserves to roll on the loot if that's what they want for their one set-piece. It's none of our business as to why they want that piece. The "one set-bonus piece per person" rule is to make sure that several members of the group get to win something useful during the run rather than have Peter "Lucky RNG" Powertech walk away with everything.
  
• No one cares about the non-set bonus items that drop. They are usually covered in terrible stats and nobody wants them. In cases where a min/max mod or enhancement happens to show up on one of these pieces, the players who need that mod or enhancement select 'Need' on it. It does not matter if the piece's main stat matches the main stat of the players rolling on it. You roll 'Need' if you need it.
  
• No one worries that winning an early common decoration will lock them out of rolling for a rare decoration later. For example, a player can win one of the six Hypergate Anomalies that dropped off the trash in nightmare mode TFB (yes, I've seen six drop in a run) and still roll for the Reconstructed Hypergate at the end of the run.

 

I can't overemphasize the fact that these rules work because everyone is mutually respectful of the skill and effort that another player has made in contributing to a clear. Therefore everyone is completely OK with a player bringing their full-186 nightmare geared DPS to a DP hard mode run and having them win the 180 set-bonus legs that drop from Raptus to do with what they will -- send over to their newly leveled Alt, reverse-engineer the enhancement from them, whatever. That uber-geared player has helped to clear the boss and deserves a chance to be rewarded for the time and effort they have invested in the group's progress. No player in these PUGs is expected to be there for the charity of their group-mates.

 

And these loot rules work without requiring any special group composition. I've run, without incident, under these rules with PUGs consisting of all types of players; guildmates, friends, acquaintances, total strangers from Fleet, players on my Ignore List, another guild where I'm the only PUG, anyone and everyone.

 

I don't know if there's something special about hard mode and nightmare mode (current) content that makes everyone respect each other for being part of the group and contributing to a clear, but it certainly seems to filter out the story mode players who hold hard and fast to the rule that "you can only roll for loot for the toon you are playing." That type of restriction is nowhere to be found in the extensive Operation community I interact with every day.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Levram

[Halinalle]

No one cares if a person wins the set-bonus chest and sends it to their Alt's companion for that companion's off-spec.

 

And I can understand why.. Set bonus does nothing for companions.

[Levram]

And I can understand why.. Set bonus does nothing for companions.

 

LOL - it was just meant to be a funny example of one of the most useless things a player could do with a set-bonus chest.

 

And as a complete side-note, I did know one player who had the personal goal of always having their primary companion in a four-piece set bonus. It was pretty amusing...and slightly confusing.

[ScarletBlaze]

A simple and easy solution to all this problem:

 

For Pugs:

 

Before running off to do the flashpoint or operation decided on the rules upfront, before anything drops and that way people know what is expected of them.

 

This should hopefully stop some of the arguing but the problem is getting people to discuss this prior to the flashpoint or operation. It seems most people are in a hurry to do the flashpoint or operation and don't want to take a few minutes and decide on the rules and come to some sort of an agreement.