Ability Bloat: Being Addressed?

[robertthebard]

Wither, ability that does nice AoE damage and doesn't affect sleeping targets, should be general Assassin ability? Available to all specs?

 

 

 

Wither:

- Isn't taunt

- It's attack with nice AoE damage and high threat

- It also applies two debuffs to all affected enemies: slows movement speed and more importantly damage reduction.

 

I said, it's effectively a taunt, since a taunt does what, again? I also said it works against mobs that cannot be taunted. Why? Because it does what? I'll give you a hint, you used it to try to prove me wrong about what I said.

[Ruskaeth]

There is no ability bloat. If people think there are too many, they are just easily confused for whatever other myriad reason.

[Halinalle]

I said, it's effectively a taunt, since a taunt does what, again? I also said it works against mobs that cannot be taunted. Why? Because it does what? I'll give you a hint, you used it to try to prove me wrong about what I said.

 

So, players still don't know how taunt works.

 

Hint:

Wither doesn't place you on top of threat table.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Halinalle

[Melever]

It isn't dumbing the game down though. It's a situation of "less is more". If we had fewer abilities that worked differently due to procs or changes of a character's state it would be more interesting than having 30+ situational abilities that do nothing more than give some stat changes or some extra damage at the expense of an ability slot, a keybind and screen space. Just for the sake of fake depth.

 

As for an example this is a screenshot from my UI on my Assassin. Haven't redone his talents since the patch (thus the couple of empty slots). Too much stuff:

 

http://i.imgur.com/e9UtLqT.jpg

 

A lot of that doesn't need to be there if certain things were baked into the class/spec.

 

Just a note: there are a lot of abilities in this picture that aren't even part of the class and are not required to be on the bars. It also looks like you're using two different spec's abilities on the same bars.

[robertthebard]

So, players still don't know how taunt works.

 

Hint:

Wither doesn't place you on top of threat table.

 

It's nice to see that people still don't understand how to tank. It's a good thing they're killing hybrids, isn't it then? Seeing how this works isn't rocket science, but, it would sure seem like it is reading here.

 

So, I'm tanking the Rancor in KP. It does it's smash thing, and goes after the healer. I can't taunt, it's immune, so I hit it with Wither, and what do you know, I'm back on top of the threat table. How complicated is that to figure out?

[Halinalle]

It's nice to see that people still don't understand how to tank. It's a good thing they're killing hybrids, isn't it then? Seeing how this works isn't rocket science, but, it would sure seem like it is reading here.

 

So, I'm tanking the Rancor in KP. It does it's smash thing, and goes after the healer. I can't taunt, it's immune, so I hit it with Wither, and what do you know, I'm back on top of the threat table. How complicated is that to figure out?

 

You can do it with any high damage ability...

And Shock has the highest damage.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Halinalle

[robertthebard]

You can do it with any high damage ability...

And Shock has the highest damage.

 

In other words, "Oh yeah, I guess it can function as a taunt against mobs that can't be taunted, my bad", right? Or, is it going to be "I said it's not a taunt, and therefore you have to be wrong, because I said so"? Wither generates more threat, and applies it's debuff, making killing it easier. As someone that's actually tanked said rancor on an assassin tank, not an assassin hybrid, I maintain that removing Wither to connect it to another ability, in another tree, is a bad idea. I also maintain that, despite claims made in this thread, it's not bloat.

[Nothematic]

Data mined And it's just for Pyro Merc.

 

You'll get permed for discussing it.

[Ryuku-sama]

You'll get permed for discussing it.

 

Yep.. got warned.. but with how many people who posted it already.. And the few informations I'm pretty got out of the NDA-PTS...

[Gaff]

Just a note: there are a lot of abilities in this picture that aren't even part of the class and are not required to be on the bars. It also looks like you're using two different spec's abilities on the same bars.

 

Those abilities are used with regularity as a Madness Assassin. The stuff that is unbound but on the bars or are my mount/quick travel is not what I am talking about. I refer only to the class abilities.

[Dimoxinil]

Just wondering if ability bloat is finally being taken care of with this new talent tree shake-up. Most skills don't add depth to the combat, they're just something extra to click. Would be nice not to have 24+ keybinds.

 

The MMO that this new talent tree is being copied from, we all know which one , has recently dealt with ability bloat. Perhaps we won't have to wait as long as that?

 

+1

And for those who want examples just look at the rotation for the sentinel/marauder. It's quite ridiculous. Way too many abilities and useless mechanics (like centering/fury).

[Melever]

Just wondering if ability bloat is finally being taken care of with this new talent tree shake-up. Most skills don't add depth to the combat, they're just something extra to click. Would be nice not to have 24+ keybinds.

 

The MMO that this new talent tree is being copied from, we all know which one , has recently dealt with ability bloat. Perhaps we won't have to wait as long as that?

 

Those abilities are used with regularity as a Madness Assassin. The stuff that is unbound but on the bars or are my mount/quick travel is not what I am talking about. I refer only to the class abilities.

 

You never once that I can see stated class abilities. Also, force slow and taunt, among a few others, required in raiding as madness? Some of these abilities still make me wonder what you're doing, since I have a madness assassin and can play it effectively with two bars.

[Ryuku-sama]

+1

And for those who want examples just look at the rotation for the sentinel/marauder. It's quite ridiculous. Way too many abilities and useless mechanics (like centering/fury).

 

Centering Fury.. Useless??????? Play a Mara without ever usign Bloodthirst/Inspiration and Berzerk/Zen. Try it. Focus cannot. Watchman is shafted without Zen. Only Combat is viable but not optimal without it.

[Levram]

In other words, "Oh yeah, I guess it can function as a taunt against mobs that can't be taunted, my bad", right? Or, is it going to be "I said it's not a taunt, and therefore you have to be wrong, because I said so"? Wither generates more threat, and applies it's debuff, making killing it easier.

 

I've read the discussion you've been having with Halinalle regarding the Wither (Slow Time) ability of an Assassin (Shadow) Tank. It is clear that you have seen Wither have certain effects on mobs and bosses which make it appear as though it is working as a taunt, but Wither has no taunt functionality to it. I will explain.

 

First, my background; I Main an Assassin Tank for my progression guild. The only fight in the game I have yet to clear on my Assassin Tank is nightmare Dread Council.

 

Definitions

 

Threat: A numerical value calculated by an enemy based on a player’s actions.

Threat Table: A descending hierarchical list calculated by an enemy of each player’s threat on that enemy.

Aggro: The choice of an enemy as to which player to attack.

 

Threat and Aggro Mechanics in SWTOR

 

Every “normal” (meaning they do not have a random threat table) enemy in SWTOR will initially aggro the player who is in the first position on that enemy’s threat table.

 

An enemy will aggro a different player if that second player achieves one of the following two conditions:

1. The second player is less than four meters from the enemy and generates threat that is greater than or equal to 110% of the threat of the player currently aggroed by the enemy.
   
2. The second player is greater than four meters from the enemy and generates threat that is greater than or equal to 130% of the threat of the player currently aggroed by the enemy.
   

 

Once the enemy aggros the second player, the first player much achieve one of the above two conditions in order to have the enemy re-aggro them.

 

Taunt Mechanics

 

A player triggering one of their, potentially two, specific taunt abilities (i.e. single taunt or AoE taunt) on an enemy results in one of the following two calculations being made:

1. If the distance between the player and the center-point of the enemy is less than four meters, the first value in the enemy’s threat table is multiplied by 110% and applied to the player as their threat for the enemy.
   
2. If the distance between the player and the center-point of the enemy is greater than four meters, the first value in the enemy’s threat table is multiplied by 130% and applied to the player as their threat for the enemy.
   

 

Wither (Slow Time)

 

The tooltip of this ability is “Causes up to 5 targets to wither under the weight of the Force, dealing XXX – YYY kinetic damage, decreasing the damage all targets deal by 5%, and slowing the movement speed of all targets by 30%. Does not damage sleeping, lifted, or incapacitated enemies. This ability generates a high amount of threat. Lasts 15 seconds.”

 

I was not able to find the actual game value for “generates a high amount of threat,” but it is likely an extra 50% threat on top of the extra 50% threat you receive for being in a Tank stance.

 

Therefore the threat calculation for Wither is: DAMAGE x 150% (ability bonus) x 150% (stance bonus)

 

A wither that hits an enemy for 1,000 damage therefore results in 2,250 threat.

 

Scenario

 

• A Main Tank is in the middle of an 8-man Operation pull facing three enemies; the boss and two additional mobs.
  
• No enemies are taunt immune.
  
• The Main Tank is closer than four meters to all three enemies.
  
• DPS 1 and DPS 2 are closer than four meters to all three enemies.
  
• DPS 3 and DPS 4 and both Healers are further than four meters from all three enemies.
  
• The off-tank is dead.
  
• The Main Tank is performing their rotation on the boss.
  
• All DPS are attacking Mob 1 with single target damage and have not attacked Mob 2.
  

 

This is the current status of the threat tables and enemy aggro:

 

 

Boss Threat Table

Main Tank: 50,000

DPS 1: 45,000

DPS 2: 43,000

DPS 3: 36,000

DPS 4: 34,000

Healer 1: 30,000

Healer 2: 29,000

Off-Tank: 0

 

Boss is aggroed on Main Tank.

 

Mob 1 Threat Table

DPS 1: 20,000

DPS 2: 19,500

Main Tank: 19,000

DPS 3: 17,000

DPS 4: 15,000

Healer 1: 10,000

Healer 2: 8,000

Off-Tank: 0

 

Mob 1 is aggroed on DPS 1.

 

Mob 2 Table

Main Tank: 17,000

Healer 1: 9,000

Healer 2: 7,000

DPS 1: 0

DPS 2: 0

DPS 3: 0

DPS 4: 0

Off-Tank: 0

 

Mob 2 is aggroed on Main Tank.

 

 

During the next Global, before any other player performs an action, the Main Tank picks from two options.

 

Option 1 – AoE taunt

 

The Main tank is closer than four meter to each enemy and therefore taunt Calculation Option 1 is performed for each enemy; the first value in the enemy’s threat table is multiplied by 110% and applied to the Main Tank as their threat for the enemy. This result in the following updated threat tables.

 

 

Boss Threat Table

Main Tank: 55,000

DPS 1: 45,000

DPS 2: 43,000

DPS 3: 36,000

DPS 4: 34,000

Healer 1: 30,000

Healer 2: 29,000

Off-Tank: 0

 

Boss remains aggroed on Main Tank.

 

Mob 1 Threat Table

Main Tank: 22,000

DPS 1: 20,000

DPS 2: 19,500

DPS 3: 17,000

DPS 4: 15,000

Healer 1: 10,000

Healer 2: 8,000

Off-Tank: 0

 

Mob 1 switches aggro from DPS 1 to Main Tank as 22,000 threat is greater than or equal to 110% of the 20,000 threat of the originally aggroed player, DPS 1.

 

Mob 2 Table

Main Tank: 18,700

Healer 1: 9,000

Healer 2: 7,000

DPS 1: 0

DPS 2: 0

DPS 3: 0

DPS 4: 0

Off-Tank: 0

 

Mob 2 remains aggroed on Main Tank.

 

 

Option 2 – Wither

 

As Wither is not a taunt, neither of the two taunt mechanic calculations is performed. Instead, the threat caused by Wither’s damage is calculated by each enemy.

 

Assumption 1: Wither hits and crits on each enemy for 1,740 damage. Therefore, with the ability and stance bonus threat, it generates 3,915 threat on each enemy. This result in the following updated threat tables.

 

 

Boss Threat Table

Main Tank: 53,915

DPS 1: 45,000

DPS 2: 43,000

DPS 3: 36,000

DPS 4: 34,000

Healer 1: 30,000

Healer 2: 29,000

Off-Tank: 0

 

Boss remains aggroed on Main Tank.

 

Mob 1 Threat Table

Main Tank: 22,915

DPS 1: 20,000

DPS 2: 19,500

DPS 3: 17,000

DPS 4: 15,000

Healer 1: 10,000

Healer 2: 8,000

Off-Tank: 0

 

Mob 1 switches aggro from DPS 1 to Main Tank as 22,915, threat is greater than or equal to 110% of the 20,000 threat of the originally aggroed player, DPS 1.

 

Mob 2 Table

Main Tank: 21,915

Healer 1: 9,000

Healer 2: 7,000

DPS 1: 0

DPS 2: 0

DPS 3: 0

DPS 4: 0

Off-Tank: 0

 

Mob 2 remains aggroed on Main Tank.

 

 

Assumption 2: Wither hits and does not crit on each enemy for 1,000 damage. Therefore, with the ability and stance bonus threat, it generates 2,250 threat on each enemy. This result in the following updated threat tables.

 

 

Boss Threat Table

Main Tank: 52,250

DPS 1: 45,000

DPS 2: 43,000

DPS 3: 36,000

DPS 4: 34,000

Healer 1: 30,000

Healer 2: 29,000

Off-Tank: 0

 

Boss remains aggroed on Main Tank.

 

Mob 1 Threat Table

Main Tank: 21,250

DPS 1: 20,000

DPS 2: 19,500

DPS 3: 17,000

DPS 4: 15,000

Healer 1: 10,000

Healer 2: 8,000

Off-Tank: 0

 

Mob 1 does not switch aggro from DPS 1 to Main Tank as 21,250, threat is not greater than or equal to 110% of the 20,000 threat of the originally aggroed player, DPS 1.

 

Mob 2 Table

Main Tank: 19,250

Healer 1: 9,000

Healer 2: 7,000

DPS 1: 0

DPS 2: 0

DPS 3: 0

DPS 4: 0

Off-Tank: 0

 

Mob 2 remains aggroed on Main Tank.

 

 

Conclusion

 

As detailed above, a taunt on an enemy, who is not taunt immune, will always assign a player enough threat to both put them in the first position on an enemy’s threat table and cause that enemy to aggro on them. Wither is only a high threat generation attack that may, or may not, put a player in the first position on an enemy’s threat table and may, or may not, cause that enemy to aggro on them.

 

Wither is not a taunt.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Levram

[Gaff]

You never once that I can see stated class abilities. Also, force slow and taunt, among a few others, required in raiding as madness? Some of these abilities still make me wonder what you're doing, since I have a madness assassin and can play it effectively with two bars.

 

That may be true for raiding but for PvP they are used quite often.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Gaff

[Zoom_VI]

So, I'm tanking the Rancor in KP. It does it's smash thing, and goes after the healer. I can't taunt, it's immune, so I hit it with Wither, and what do you know, I'm back on top of the threat table. How complicated is that to figure out?

 

This is false. The Rancor in KP isn't just unable to be taunted, it flat out does not have a treat table. It attacking you after you used wither is nothing but pure coincidence.

[Levram]

Also, force slow and taunt, among a few others, required in raiding as madness? Some of these abilities still make me wonder what you're doing, since I have a madness assassin and can play it effectively with two bars.

 

Apparently you do not make use of all of your abilities as a Madness Assassin in Operations, which I also play extensively.

 

In hard mode, and especially nightmare mode Operation content, having DPS with single taunts available can be a critical component of a guild's strategy.

 

For example, you are pulling nightmare Tyrans. One of your Tanks is teleported to the bridge and the other Tank is hit by Rising Slash. Both Tanks have now been removed from Tyrans' threat table and the boss turns toward the DPS and Healers to fire a Driving Thrust that will do more that 30K damage to anyone hit. As an Assassin DPS I can single taunt Tyrans onto me, face him away from the team, pop Force Shroud and take zero damage. I have just potentially saved the team from a wipe.

 

Every ability that a Class has is used, meaningfully, at some point in the game's content. Don't forget that PvE and PvP co-exist in this game.

[robertthebard]

This is false. The Rancor in KP isn't just unable to be taunted, it flat out does not have a treat table. It attacking you after you used wither is nothing but pure coincidence.

 

Okay, *smile and nod*. Well, maybe it can be, in SM, not sure, my last runs were in NiM, so I don't really remember.

 

Regarding the wall of text, sorry didn't note the name: I'm not trying to initially establish threat, I am reasserting my threat. It doesn't matter if I'm building it back up with a direct taunt, an AoE taunt, or a high threat ability. I am simply building onto what I already have. In a situation where you cannot taunt, because of immunity, any skill with high threat generation, added to tank stance threat generation, functions just as a taunt would, it puts your threat back up top. We can argue semantics of the terminology if you wish, but as far as the DPS/Healer that winds up on top of the table when I reassert my threat is concerned, I taunted.

[Highsis]

My IA has 48 hot keys (including in-cover hotkeys) assigned and I use all those in battles...

1~6 normal talent

shift 1~6 DOT

ctrl 1~6 self buff

alt 1~6 heal

letter keys for escaping, movement, stealth

shift + letter keys for CC

ctrl + letter keys for areal attack

alt + letters for items.

 

Surprising thing is these are not even enough. I have to mouse click some legacy abilities.

 

This is utterly stupid. I only have 5 fingers on my left hand. Which means I spend 80% playtime looking at quickbars. I don't even look at the screen except for target switching.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Highsis

[Zoom_VI]

Okay, *smile and nod*. Well, maybe it can be, in SM, not sure, my last runs were in NiM, so I don't really remember.

 

Its the same for all modes. Bonethrasher doesn't have a threat table, targets are pretty much random, which is why he will go after healers from time to time.

[Lithy]

GW2 actually has the most enjoyable combat in a MMO currently, in my opinion. You don't have a lot of skills but the ones you do have are meaningful and there is a lot of depth to them. With those few abilities the combat already has more depth than SWTOR's. The only way I can compare the two combats is via a restaurant anology, being a chef. You are given $30. Would you rather have 1 really nice steak + garnish, or 30 fast food hamburgers?

 

Design issues aside, yes Marauders/Sentinels have some of the worst bloat in the game.

 

Can't just take the abilities off my bars either because then I would be playing sub-optimally. This is a situation of the game needing change, not the player.

 

I'm gonna disagree with you here, GW2 in my opinion, had some of the worst combat ever created in the history of MMOs. All MMOs with limited ability bars fall into this category for me too. It makes combat INCREDIBLY simple, boring, and most of all, easy. I played a mesmer which imo was a very interesting and well designed class from a starting perspective. Alot of the abilities were interesting too. However you barely got to use any in combat, the combat was simplified that anything that made the class interesting was striped away. The limited action bars *even with weapon swapping* took what could have been one of the most interesting, complex, rewarding, deep and innovative class to ever grace the MMO scene into something a new born could play. While sleeping. This is, again, just my opinion and nothing is wrong with liking this style. I just cannot stand simple, limited combat options. It takes anything interesting away from the combat. It's why I quit GW2, ESO, and most of all WS. WS was probably the worst offender for limited, boring combat for me.

 

In sum, I hope they never remove abilities again. Most abilities have their place in any spec, and those that don't have something that takes it's place. Remove anymore abilities from this game and it would cause me to leave. This game already has less abilites than my last MMO, and I am disappointed there are not many brand abilities. There needs to be MORE tactical depth to combat for both PvE and PvP. Not less.

[robertthebard]

Its the same for all modes. Bonethrasher doesn't have a threat table, targets are pretty much random, which is why he will go after healers from time to time.

 

Isn't Bonethrasher the one outside, by the gate? What's the one inside called, or do I have my Ops confused? There's a rancor on a "platform" surrounded by a moat, that can't be taunted, which one is that?

[Levram]

Okay, *smile and nod*. Well, maybe it can be, in SM, not sure, my last runs were in NiM, so I don't really remember.

 

Regarding the wall of text, sorry didn't note the name: I'm not trying to initially establish threat, I am reasserting my threat. It doesn't matter if I'm building it back up with a direct taunt, an AoE taunt, or a high threat ability. I am simply building onto what I already have. In a situation where you cannot taunt, because of immunity, any skill with high threat generation, added to tank stance threat generation, functions just as a taunt would, it puts your threat back up top. We can argue semantics of the terminology if you wish, but as far as the DPS/Healer that winds up on top of the table when I reassert my threat is concerned, I taunted.

 

All right, on two issues now you have clearly demonstrated that you have no concept of how this game's mechanics operate.

 

Bonethrasher has no threat table and cannot be taunted in any difficulty mode. No action you take as a tank will make any difference as to who the boss is aggroed on. You can Wither until the cows come home and he won't turn to you unless he happens to randomly select you next to attack. If you don't believe the people in this thread, here are some original 2012 guildes to the fight:

 

IGN: "Bonethrasher has a random aggro table and cannot be taunted, so your party will have to be on its toes."

 

Star Wars Warrior: "(Bonethrasher) has no agro table to speak of, and will target what seems to be random players."

 

: "(Bonethrasher) doesn't actually have an aggro table. Instead he'll randomly target anyone in your raid."

 

: "Bonethrasher has around 1.2 million health and does not have an aggro table. This means you cannot taunt him and he chooses a random player to target at all times."

________________

 

Regarding the wall of text, if you actually read my answer and understood the threat table calculations I made, you would see that my example had nothing to do with initially establishing threat. The example occurred in the middle of a fight with three enemies.

 

In a situation where you cannot taunt, because of immunity, any skill with high threat generation, added to tank stance threat generation, functions just as a taunt would, it puts your threat back up top.

 

Please explain how you would "put your threat back up top" using a high threat ability in the following situation on an enemy that is taunt immune:

 

DPS 1 threat: 75,000

Tank threat: 50,000

[Ryuku-sama]

All right, on two issues now you have clearly demonstrated that you have no concept of how this game's mechanics operate.

 

Bonethrasher has no threat table and cannot be taunted in any difficulty mode. No action you take as a tank will make any difference as to who the boss is aggroed on. You can Wither until the cows come home and he won't turn to you unless he happens to randomly select you next to attack. If you don't believe the people in this thread, here are some original 2012 guildes to the fight:

 

IGN: "Bonethrasher has a random aggro table and cannot be taunted, so your party will have to be on its toes."

 

Star Wars Warrior: "(Bonethrasher) has no agro table to speak of, and will target what seems to be random players."

 

: "(Bonethrasher) doesn't actually have an aggro table. Instead he'll randomly target anyone in your raid."

 

: "Bonethrasher has around 1.2 million health and does not have an aggro table. This means you cannot taunt him and he chooses a random player to target at all times."

________________

 

Regarding the wall of text, if you actually read my answer and understood the threat table calculations I made, you would see that my example had nothing to do with initially establishing threat. The example occurred in the middle of a fight with three enemies.

 

 

 

Please explain how you would "put your threat back up top" using a high threat ability in the following situation on an enemy that is taunt immune:

 

DPS 1 threat: 75,000

Tank threat: 50,000

 

Let me remember.... Oh yeah... Isn't something like Wither > Shock > other high DPS/threat abilities the answer???

[Jrr_hypernova]

My IA has 48 hot keys (including in-cover hotkeys) assigned and I use all those in battles...

1~6 normal talent

shift 1~6 DOT

ctrl 1~6 self buff

alt 1~6 heal

letter keys for escaping, movement, stealth

shift + letter keys for CC

ctrl + letter keys for areal attack

alt + letters for items.

 

Surprising thing is these are not even enough. I have to mouse click some legacy abilities.

 

This is utterly stupid. I only have 5 fingers on my left hand. Which means I spend 80% playtime looking at quickbars. I don't even look at the screen except for target switching.

 

Here's an idea if your playing a class maybe only play one roll not all of them? If your being a dps you don't need healing and if your healing cut down the dps skills you don't need every skill mapped out trees only tend to favour a few of them so maybe use those.