Ability Bloat: Being Addressed?

[theUndead]

Agreed.

 

(I don't actually use keybinds, really... I'm a filthy mouse-clicker...)

 

Join the club. I'm a mouse clicker too.

[bassfu]

The only way I can compare the two combats is via a restaurant anology, being a chef. You are given $30. Would you rather have 1 really nice steak + garnish, or 30 fast food hamburgers?.

 

I'll take the few days worth of burgers over a half hour of steak.

 

After Blizzard turned half the classes I play into boring husks on Tuesday, I'd be pretty hesitant to stick with SWTOR if they decided to start cutting things.

[Elric_VIII]

I'll take the few days worth of burgers over a half hour of steak.

 

After Blizzard turned half the classes I play into boring husks on Tuesday, I'd be pretty hesitant to stick with SWTOR if they decided to start cutting things.

 

They'd get stale, though.

 

 

 

(see what I did there?)

[MaximusRex]

I run with 32 keybinds, and Operative, Shadow, and Sentinel all have more abilities then I have binds for, and I'm not even touching the Legeacy Abilities I can use with Heroic Moment.

 

Since these are all alts for me there might be some abilities I can just not have on my bars, but I haven't looked that closely into it. But, if that is the case those abilities are certainly the definition of bloat. Healers can especially be vulnerable to bloat, because you can't heal enemies to death, so you need a decent set of DPS abilities, and can't just put too much into too few abilities or Healers become OP damage dealers.

 

So, I think there is a little bit of room for some bloat be be addressed.

[robertthebard]

Incorrect, you have a false understanding of bloat.

 

No, I really think that you do. If you can't play optimally w/out the skills, then they are not bloat. You should be able to remove them from your rotation and never miss them. What's closer to the truth here is "I want to press two buttons for combat, anything else is too hard". How else do we translate "I don't need all these skills, but if I don't have them on my hotbars I'm playing sub-optimally"?

[Marb]

It looks like they have pruned a small number by making some abilities restricted to specific disciplines and merging a scant few others. In some cases they have added additional effects onto underused abilities to make them more relevant.

 

Some abilities replace their less powerful cousin, but most of them just share a cooldown. The main reason for this seems to be the very niche application of the less powerful ability in some cases.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Marb

[hadoken]

No, I really think that you do. If you can't play optimally w/out the skills, then they are not bloat. You should be able to remove them from your rotation and never miss them. What's closer to the truth here is "I want to press two buttons for combat, anything else is too hard". How else do we translate "I don't need all these skills, but if I don't have them on my hotbars I'm playing sub-optimally"?

 

They're bloat BECAUSE they're necessary, which makes things more tedious than it needs to be (note: this is not the same as 'skill' or 'ability'). Your argument is because everything is necessary everything is perfect? That's just silly.

 

Here's an example of bloat: Sniper's "Shatter Shot"

 

That should be baked in to some other ability. There's no 'skill' required to shoot that to keep the debuff up, and it's necessary to do so. It takes up extra room and gives people like you (I guess) the illusion that using it to keep the debuff up is some measure of separating amazing skill at the game from poor gameplay. When all it really is, is just another mindless button to press.

Edited October 18, 2014 by hadoken

[Elric_VIII]

No, I really think that you do. If you can't play optimally w/out the skills, then they are not bloat. You should be able to remove them from your rotation and never miss them. What's closer to the truth here is "I want to press two buttons for combat, anything else is too hard". How else do we translate "I don't need all these skills, but if I don't have them on my hotbars I'm playing sub-optimally"?

 

Here's an example: The Corruption Sorcerers use 1 HoT to make another HoT better. Do I really need 2 HoTs when it could simply be that leveling up talents makes your original HoT better?

 

Then there's the Madness Sorcerer that has 1 DoT that works with skills A/B/C and another that works with skills D/E/F. The difference is marginal, damage type and how they are cast/applied. As far as I've seen, damage type hardly matters because you always want to keep both active, so there's no counterplay there, just an extra skill that is negligibly different.

 

I'd really rather have my skills' functionality/power upgraded than receive multiple nearly identical skills.

[robertthebard]

They're bloat BECAUSE they're necessary, which makes things more tedious than it needs to be (note: this is not the same as 'skill' or 'ability'). Your argument is because everything is necessary everything is perfect? That's just silly.

 

Here's an example of bloat: Sniper's "Shatter Shot"

 

That should be baked in to some other ability. There's no 'skill' required to shoot that to keep the debuff up, and it's necessary to do so. It takes up extra room and gives people like you (I guess) the illusion that using it to keep the debuff up is some measure of separating amazing skill at the game from poor gameplay. When all it really is, is just another mindless button to press.

 

My point is that because they're necessary, they don't really fit as "bloat". I don't need to have speeders on my hotbar, but I do. That's bloat. Nothing about not having them on the bars makes it so I can't use them, it's just that, w/out them there, I have to take extra steps to get on a speeder. I don't need a custom bar for my Heroic Moment and the 8 skills that go with it, but I have it, I can't remember the last time I ever used them, but they're there. That's bloat. Looking at my Kinetic tank's hotbars as I type this, I don't see any skills that I would consider bloat. Now, while I'm soloing, Phase Walk probably qualifies as something I don't need, since I don't run with a healer companion, but really there's not much else I'd even think I wouldn't maybe need. Unless, of course, I'm just not going to tank, in which case, I could clear a lot of fluff. However, since that's my intended build, and the whole reason I built the toon in the first place, I don't see the bloat.

 

Just a note, making less buttons to mindlessly mash during combat does not equate any skill either. In fact, I'd argue that having to keep track of less "what skill does what, and when will I need it" takes less skill. I've played GW, and the combat wasn't all that deep/rich/engaging. It was, just like any MMO, mash some buttons, kill the target, acquire the next target and repeat. Arguing "skill" at playing any tab target game is nearly an oxymoron. It doesn't matter if you have 8 skills, or 28, it's the exact same concept.

[hadoken]

My point is that because they're necessary, they don't really fit as "bloat". I don't need to have speeders on my hotbar, but I do. That's bloat. Nothing about not having them on the bars makes it so I can't use them, it's just that, w/out them there, I have to take extra steps to get on a speeder. I don't need a custom bar for my Heroic Moment and the 8 skills that go with it, but I have it, I can't remember the last time I ever used them, but they're there. That's bloat. Looking at my Kinetic tank's hotbars as I type this, I don't see any skills that I would consider bloat. Now, while I'm soloing, Phase Walk probably qualifies as something I don't need, since I don't run with a healer companion, but really there's not much else I'd even think I wouldn't maybe need. Unless, of course, I'm just not going to tank, in which case, I could clear a lot of fluff. However, since that's my intended build, and the whole reason I built the toon in the first place, I don't see the bloat.

 

Just a note, making less buttons to mindlessly mash during combat does not equate any skill either. In fact, I'd argue that having to keep track of less "what skill does what, and when will I need it" takes less skill. I've played GW, and the combat wasn't all that deep/rich/engaging. It was, just like any MMO, mash some buttons, kill the target, acquire the next target and repeat. Arguing "skill" at playing any tab target game is nearly an oxymoron. It doesn't matter if you have 8 skills, or 28, it's the exact same concept.

 

You're still trying to redefine the word to fit your own argument, instead of using it how the industry already does. I get this is your method of arguing your point, but it's really just a strawman in the end.

[robertthebard]

You're still trying to redefine the word to fit your own argument, instead of using it how the industry already does. I get this is your method of arguing your point, but it's really just a strawman in the end.

 

...and just what is "the less skills I have to use, the better"? They're bloat, but you can't play w/out them. They're necessary, but not. This whole topic is all over the place about what "bloat" is. The suggestion has been made, and stands, if you feel like a skill is a waste of time, don't slot it. All fixed. This "but it's necessary" doesn't carry a lot of weight, if you believe it's just there to fill a slot on the quick bars. My interpretation of this thread:

 

Hey BioWare, I need to not have so many skills on my hotbars, but I can't force myself to take them off, so can you do it for me?

[Max_Killjoy]

Here's an example: The Corruption Sorcerers use 1 HoT to make another HoT better. Do I really need 2 HoTs when it could simply be that leveling up talents makes your original HoT better?

 

Then there's the Madness Sorcerer that has 1 DoT that works with skills A/B/C and another that works with skills D/E/F. The difference is marginal, damage type and how they are cast/applied. As far as I've seen, damage type hardly matters because you always want to keep both active, so there's no counterplay there, just an extra skill that is negligibly different.

 

I'd really rather have my skills' functionality/power upgraded than receive multiple nearly identical skills.

 

While making the game into a 4-button masher (the extreme version of "clearing bloat") wouldn't suit me at all, those specific examples of a few small things that can be cleaned up make more sense than the wholesale change that some seem to be calling for.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Gaff]

...and just what is "the less skills I have to use, the better"? They're bloat, but you can't play w/out them. They're necessary, but not. This whole topic is all over the place about what "bloat" is. The suggestion has been made, and stands, if you feel like a skill is a waste of time, don't slot it. All fixed. This "but it's necessary" doesn't carry a lot of weight, if you believe it's just there to fill a slot on the quick bars. My interpretation of this thread:

 

Hey BioWare, I need to not have so many skills on my hotbars, but I can't force myself to take them off, so can you do it for me?

 

The definition of bloat: to become swollen. Too much. The hotbars are swollen. Necessary abilities or not, that swelling needs to be reduced. We can't just take those abilities off of our bars for relief because we are required to use them: the game is balanced in such a way that not using them would put us at a disadvantage. It is therefore up to the developers to provide us with relief by changing the game so that those abilities are non-existant but their functionality, their contribution to balance, remains.

 

3 Abilities that have a similar functionality are merged into 1. They perfom the same functions. They have the same mechanics. You just save space. The definition of streamline: to alter in order to make more efficient.

 

Efficiency. That is the keyword.

 

As another example abilities that are conjured simply for the sake of conjuring are prime candidates for pruning. Highly situational abilities. For example classes that have "stun droid" for 60 seconds ability and a "stun humanoid" for 60 seconds ability. That's not necessary. That can be made into one all encompassing "stun for 60 seconds" ability.

[Ryuku-sama]

Here's an example: The Corruption Sorcerers use 1 HoT to make another HoT better. Do I really need 2 HoTs when it could simply be that leveling up talents makes your original HoT better?

 

How??? I can't even fathom how someone can be that clueless. Sorc having two HoTs?? In what world are you living???????

 

Then there's the Madness Sorcerer that has 1 DoT that works with skills A/B/C and another that works with skills D/E/F. The difference is marginal, damage type and how they are cast/applied. As far as I've seen, damage type hardly matters because you always want to keep both active, so there's no counterplay there, just an extra skill that is negligibly different.

 

Sure.. This is what skill and lock of skill is all about. Keeping two DoTs up without clipping them is much harder than keeping one up. And Affliction is needed as baseline, with Creeping Terror is Madness only.. There is a difference between the two.

[Halinalle]

Never seemed like bloat to me...

 

Carnage/Combat.

 

But even that is manageable... barely.

[Gaff]

Another example of bloat that irks me: the abilities that should be auto-attacks. Bioware thought they were making the combat more "actiony" by not introducing auto-attack. Instead they just sucked up a valuable ability slot with its presence. This is Saber Strike, Blaster Fire, etc.

[Altheran]

Another example of bloat that irks me: the abilities that should be auto-attacks. Bioware thought they were making the combat more "actiony" by not introducing auto-attack. Instead they just sucked up a valuable ability slot with its presence. This is Saber Strike, Blaster Fire, etc.

 

Because you'd prefer to cut your stream of action and wait for your ressources to come back than actively doing something during that time ?

[robertthebard]

The definition of bloat: to become swollen. Too much. The hotbars are swollen. Necessary abilities or not, that swelling needs to be reduced. We can't just take those abilities off of our bars for relief because we are required to use them: the game is balanced in such a way that not using them would put us at a disadvantage. It is therefore up to the developers to provide us with relief by changing the game so that those abilities are non-existant but their functionality, their contribution to balance, remains.

 

3 Abilities that have a similar functionality are merged into 1. They perfom the same functions. They have the same mechanics. You just save space. The definition of streamline: to alter in order to make more efficient.

 

Efficiency. That is the keyword.

 

As another example abilities that are conjured simply for the sake of conjuring are prime candidates for pruning. Highly situational abilities. For example classes that have "stun droid" for 60 seconds ability and a "stun humanoid" for 60 seconds ability. That's not necessary. That can be made into one all encompassing "stun for 60 seconds" ability.

 

So the TL;DR would be the summation of the thread that you highlighted in my post. I'll presume that "conjured" abilities are those that, as on Operatives, only work with Tactical Advantage, and which are defining skills for the class? Speaking of Operative, that's the first class I found, when I started looking, that actually can stun a droid with one skill, and everyone else with another, but Sleep Dart requires Stealth, and can't be used in combat, while the slice droid skill can be used at any time, on a droid. So, which way are you going to go with your "streamlining"? Are you going to require stealth for this new Slice Anyone skill? Are you going to completely revamp combat so that Slice Anyone can be used during combat?

 

Just as an aside here, running with the assumption that "conjured" refers to Tactical Advantage/Upper Hand or Rage/Focus, those states enable stronger skills that shouldn't be available "just because I want to use it now". With the addendum that building Focus on a Jedi knight always seemed counter intuitive to me.

 

So it's about efficiency? So everyone to date that's been playing these classes has just been really super organized, since they can run these classes effectively despite the inherent inefficiency? Or is it that you can't find an efficient layout for the skills, so they must not exist? So far, the argument supporting bloat has been "I don't want to have xx number of keybinds, I only want x". Guess what, that's not a definitive definition of bloated, it just means that you don't want those keybinds/hotbar slots. It's certainly not something that the devs should devote the considerable amount of time it would take to achieve. Your idea involves even more complete reworking of the trees, and as we can see looking through the forums, the current rework isn't being very well received. It's been called "dumbing down" already, and your idea takes it further down that road.

[HazardousMatt]

I certainly understand that having just 6-8 buttons would be probably too few abilities. That being said, I do feel TOR has too many. My general (and highly personal) rule of thumb is that if it takes more than two 12-slot action bars just to have all your class abilities on a bar somewhere, that's just too many. And yes, I realize that *many* MMO's currently on the market fall into that category. I do like some complexity, but I honestly feel TOR has gone a bit overboard in that area. Too much of a good thing, so to speak.

 

For myself I find that the more situational an ability is the less likely I am to use it, even when the rare situation that calls for it actually pops up. Instead I find myself going "oh yeah, I could have done X" after combat is already over. But since I'm so used to that ability not being relevant to the situation, I don't think about it even when it *does* matter. To me that is a sure sign that we might have too many abilities to track. Or that I'm getting old, not sure which.

[Halinalle]

Crushing Darkness is also an Assasin's ability.

 

Crushing Darkness

Level 14

Class: Sith Inquisitor

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/4OAZpCv/crushing-darkness

 

Sorcerers can get instant Crushing Darkness with proc (may require FL spam) in Madness tree. For assassin melee attacks trigger that same proc.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Halinalle

[BrintoSFJ]

Don't think it is being properly addressed. There are a lot of abilities in each AC that has to be merged together along with their kits.for example discharge from normal sin ability and wither from darkness tree should be merged with all of their kits.

[robertthebard]

Don't think it is being properly addressed. There are a lot of abilities in each AC that has to be merged together along with their kits.for example discharge from normal sin ability and wither from darkness tree should be merged with all of their kits.

 

Do you understand what Wither is, or is this just another "it's too much for me to keep track of" thing? Wither is, in effect, an AoE Taunt that has damage and doesn't break CC. It is a skill specifically designed to get agro off of a CC class to the tank, w/out breaking it. It also effectively taunts mobs that cannot be taunted. Please learn the functions of abilities before you just assume they don't have to be different, especially when they are different.

[Halinalle]

Don't think it is being properly addressed. There are a lot of abilities in each AC that has to be merged together along with their kits.for example discharge from normal sin ability and wither from darkness tree should be merged with all of their kits.

 

Wither, ability that does nice AoE damage and doesn't affect sleeping targets, should be general Assassin ability? Available to all specs?

 

Do you understand what Wither is, or is this just another "it's too much for me to keep track of" thing? Wither is, in effect, an AoE Taunt that has damage and doesn't break CC. It is a skill specifically designed to get agro off of a CC class to the tank, w/out breaking it. It also effectively taunts mobs that cannot be taunted. Please learn the functions of abilities before you just assume they don't have to be different, especially when they are different.

 

Wither:

- Isn't taunt

- It's attack with nice AoE damage and high threat

- It also applies two debuffs to all affected enemies: slows movement speed and more importantly damage reduction.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Halinalle

[Levram]

Because you'd prefer to cut your stream of action and wait for your ressources to come back than actively doing something during that time ?

 

Yes, exactly. How is an auto-attack mechanic "improving" the player experience? I would rather be fully involved with each Global, than stopping for a while to let the game fill those Globals for me.

 

Apart from the fact that any Class played correctly barely uses it's free attack as part of it's rotation. A player might mix one or two free attacks in when needed, but it hardly requires an auto-attack function.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Levram

[The_Witchfinder]

I would not mind the number abilities being decreased if it meant combat where the focus was more on positioning, timing and accuracy. I know many people are avowed hotbar-clicky players, but I honestly believe that is simply a result of preferring that which they are used to. The majority of gamers find the system needlessly archaic and derivative. It's a shame, as this game has the potential to be easily the most versatile and interesting MMO on the market, but it's hampered by a backwards-viewing design philosophy.