BuriDogshin Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Cherry picking is FTW. It makes it so you don't have to address the post, but instead can try to come off as "cool". What do you see when you go to character creation? ... What does in-game character creation have to do with a critique of SWTOR marketing material that said material may lead people to believe, falsely, that the game does not allow you to create female characters? If you are trying to argue with an assertion that SWTOR is biased against female characters, you are arguing with a strawman of your own invention. What differences there are IMO are relatively minor (e.g. female toons only having one romance option, whereas some male toons have two) or a result of culture-imposed limitations (e.g. no totally bare chests for females, and males cannot where the skimpy Dancer outfits*). *Note that Treek, tho female, also cannot where "female-only" clothing. Not that it matters, just an interesting ... bug? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 *Note that Treek, tho female, also cannot where "female-only" clothing. Not that it matters, just an interesting ... bug? Interesting observation. Never noticed it myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Does clothing even show on Treek, such that it would visibly matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I didn't say women don't enjoy violence. I play this game, so me saying that we don't enjoy violence would be ... Silly. But when we look at adverts of people playing those games, who's player voices? Men, usually. And this is precisely the issue I have with the 12x XP Class Mission marketing material: the examples given for every single class are males. That's stupid marketing, not only because it fails to appeal to female gamers who want to run female characters, but also because it fails to appeal to male gamers that like to run female characters. (e.g. "Because if I am going to watch the backside of my toon all day, I'd rather watch a female backside.") Why are they selling the game so short? There's plenty of great artwork out there they could have used instead. Even in-game stuff, like Satele Shan as the iconic Consular, and Darth Marr as the iconic Warrior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Does clothing even show on Treek, such that it would visibly matter? No, it does not. What shows is her appearance item. Which is why it would never have occurred to be to try to see if she could equip female only clothing in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Does clothing even show on Treek, such that it would visibly matter? No. That's why I said it didn't matter much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 And this is precisely the issue I have with the 12x XP Class Mission marketing material: the examples given for every single class are males. That's stupid marketing, not only because it fails to appeal to female gamers who want to run female characters, but also because it fails to appeal to male gamers that like to run female characters. (e.g. "Because if I am going to watch the backside of my toon all day, I'd rather watch a female backside.") Why are they selling the game so short? There's plenty of great artwork out there they could have used instead. Even in-game stuff, like Satele Shan as the iconic Consular, and Darth Marr as the iconic Warrior. Well if you are so upset, why aren't you voting with your $? Could it be that it actually does not really bother you all that much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) No, it does not. What shows is her appearance item. Which is why it would never have occurred to be to try to see if she could equip female only clothing in the first place. I have some of the Dancer outfits unlocked in collections, and wanted non-Legacy shells for gearing Treek up. That's when I discovered the limitation. Wound up putting her in Casual Vandal instead (also unlocked). Edited October 17, 2014 by BuriDogshin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Well if you are so upset, why aren't you voting with your $? Could it be that it actually does not really bother you all that much? So, are you suggesting that people happy with the game but critical of BW's marketing should unsubscribe? Or are you just trolling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) So, are you suggesting that people happy with the game but critical of BW's marketing should unsubscribe? If they are really that unhappy with some aspect of the game, of course. Impotently raging on the forums helps them vent, I suppose. If you dislike "aspect X" of the game, yet continue to subscribe, why should BWEA bother to make any changes? You're obviously content to keep giving them your money. Or are you just trolling? No. Are you? Edited October 17, 2014 by branmakmuffin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 No. Are you? Oh please, be honest. What other explanation is there for your consistent mis-characterization of other people's posts, other than that you live under a bridge and have a fear of goats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertthebard Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 What does in-game character creation have to do with a critique of SWTOR marketing material that said material may lead people to believe, falsely, that the game does not allow you to create female characters? If you are trying to argue with an assertion that SWTOR is biased against female characters, you are arguing with a strawman of your own invention. What differences there are IMO are relatively minor (e.g. female toons only having one romance option, whereas some male toons have two) or a result of culture-imposed limitations (e.g. no totally bare chests for females, and males cannot where the skimpy Dancer outfits*). *Note that Treek, tho female, also cannot where "female-only" clothing. Not that it matters, just an interesting ... bug? Dear Sirs, I want to bring to your attention that majority of the human population is female in gender. Please, consider to remember that when designing for SWTOR and other games. Been playing since 1997, and got used to being shafted each and every time. However, the gender being completely excluded as even one token option for a potential class Protagonist is the whole next level of being ignored as a part of a player base. EDIT: Holy crow. Sorry, sorry, sorry folks! I know it is wiser and more mature to say it doesn't matter, but today something about it got to me. I apologize for sour-grapes. I was wrong and blew it out of proportions. I am also glad people stuck up for BioWARE, it's nice. The only thing I am going to object to is attributing criticism of non-Player characters (Satele or Zash, etc) to me; it was not the intent. I meant the Protagonist and the Protagonist only i.e. the Player Character portrayal in that article about the classes and class stories. I wish I had a chance to apologize before it dragged people into 10+ pages of old-fashioned flamefest, and I am particularly sorry to anyone who got the collateral damage by association. Here's the OP for your perusal. It was such a big deal that the OP posted an apology for posting it in the first place. So you're not represented enough? Again, however, you cherry pick to comment on what you want to comment on. Even when game companies do it, they don't do it "right". This is very much a non issue that is being blown out of proportion since, the people that can contribute to this forum know damn good and well that they can play a female if they choose to. If I see marketing online about a game, and I'm the least bit curious, I go to Google and youtube looking it up. So if I were to go to either place, I wouldn't find any information about whether or not there's a female protagonist? Wouldn't the main initial draw to this game, for the majority of people that may be interested in it, be that it's Star Wars? How many MMOs out there don't have gender selection for the protagonist? Of the 6 installed on this rig, they all do, and they vary wildly in development teams, from an older Korean Grinder to Neverwinter. So maybe continue your agenda about how "The Man" is keeping you down someplace where it's relevant? Because clearly, in the MMO market, it's irrelevant. The real issue isn't that females aren't included, it's the "I didn't see one, so I'm going to assume they don't exist and will continue to claim I'm discriminated against because they didn't show a picture that I could nitpick about **** size or clothing, or the way she walks in an MMO, where I know damn good and well that female PCs are possible". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryand Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 And you know this how? I didn't see any mention of that in the blog post or anywhere else from BW. Just because it is poorly done artwork, that doesn't mean it was concept artwork. Or that they did not pay for it. Musco said it on today's stream. That's art that they had literally lying around somewhere for years. He doesn't even know where it came from. It may have even been from before the game came out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Oh please, be honest. What other explanation is there for your consistent mis-characterization of other people's posts, other than that you live under a bridge and have a fear of goats? Your erroneous characterizatrion of my posts as mischaracterizing others' posts leads me to believe that in fact you are trolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 (edited) Here's the OP for your perusal. It was such a big deal that the OP posted an apology for posting it in the first place. I'm not the OP. You are responding to my posts, not the OPs. Or didn't you notice that? You complain about alleged "cherry picking" from your posts, and then bring in third-party postings as if I have some responsibility for them? Geez, how desperate are you to avoid admitting you've lost the argument? The selection of all-male images to represent the SWTOR class options for use in BW's 12x XP Event marketing was stupid. Inexcusably stupid: the art being free does not excuse it (better free artwork exists and includes female characters), and having the art lying around for years does not excuse it (it is actually a good reason to NOT use it). It's because I like this game that I am critical of such incompetent marketing of it. If you like this game, do you really think that artwork does it justice? Compared to, for example, the fan art that's out there? Or even the in-game graphics of the better-looking NPCs ? Edited October 18, 2014 by BuriDogshin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 It's because I like this game that I am critical of such incompetent marketing of it. That sounds ... odd. "I like this thing. Isn't it awful?" Dude, play the game if you like it, stop playing if you don't. In any event, start by just getting over your bad self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertthebard Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 I'm not the OP. You are responding to my posts, not the OPs. Or didn't you notice that? You complain about alleged "cherry picking" from your posts, and then bring in third-party postings as if I have some responsibility for them? Geez, how desperate are you to avoid admitting you've lost the argument? The selection of all-male images to represent the SWTOR class options for use in BW's 12x XP Event marketing was stupid. Inexcusably stupid: the art being free does not excuse it (better free artwork exists and includes female characters), and having the art lying around for years does not excuse it (it is actually a good reason to NOT use it). It's because I like this game that I am critical of such incompetent marketing of it. If you like this game, do you really think that artwork does it justice? Compared to, for example, the fan art that's out there? Or even the in-game graphics of the better-looking NPCs ? Oh, I'm sorry that the original post in the thread seems to be off topic to what you want to rant about. It was my understanding that the opening post in a thread was supposed to be the topic, how silly of me, I should have known it was just a platform for your agenda. Perhaps you should start your own thread? How, exactly, does one win or lose an argument on a forum? Will shouting from your soapbox loud enough suddenly make you more right, or less wrong, than somebody else? Here's a shocker for you: I haven't seen any fan artwork. Generally speaking, it winds up being "they didn't have nude models, so I drew some of the characters nude for your perusal". Good, bad or indifferent, I don't pay any attention to it. The artwork presented for this expansion didn't affect my decision to buy, or not buy the expansion either. Art is a very small part of the gaming experience, I'm more "concerned" with what the expansion is bringing to the table than what picture they're using to attempt to entice me to buy it. Sorry you're offended, or discriminated against by some pixels, or the lack of pixels in this case, but really, that's your issue, not BioWare's. It is evident, to me at least, that you're only interested in forwarding your agenda, to the point that you believe the Opening Post in a thread is irrelevant to the conversation. Now, if you can demonstrate that females aren't represented in this game, you'll have a nice foundation to discuss from. So enlighten me, how are females not represented here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DomiSotto Posted October 18, 2014 Author Share Posted October 18, 2014 (edited) I'm also unclear what this has to do with BioWare, since they have included the gender option as far back as Baldur's Gate. When I log into this game to create a character, gender and species selection are the first two things I see, so really, what was the point of the topic title and the OP again? It would seem, to the casual observer, that the OP doesn't play any BioWare games, let alone this one, but is, instead, simply here to forward an agenda that really has no bearing on the game, or the company making it. I played the older BioWARE games. The only ones I did not have a chance to play yet due to RL are Dragon Age series and ME series. I jumped from KOTOR/NWN to SWTOR missing a few years in between. I, of course, completely discredited myself, but fwiw, I started playing male stories recently in SWTOR and tbh, the grass is greener imo. I've got all the stuff I wanted and didn't get on my female protagonists. I think the rest of my protagonists will likely be males. I like getting the cool options & environment interactions more than I like to play a female toon w/o it. Yes, I know, I was made aware on numerous occasions, that a lot of players, maybe all of them save for me, prefer playing female toons exactly because those options are unavailable to the female toons or they are happy with the content that is there. I understand. I get it . I am done objecting, the first post was just a very stupid thing to do. I've apologized. I will apologize again if it will make any difference to anyone who got really upset. Edited October 18, 2014 by DomiSotto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 People, youre all missing the most important point. The KNIGHT is holding a DOUBLE BLADED LIGHTSABER. Hehe, Lets see them explain THAT with a legacy perk...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eanelinea Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Even in SWTOR there are more male gamers than female. I'm female, and majority of the time, it's only ever me in the raid group(s) over voice chat who is female. Once or twice there's been a woman, usually doesn't say anything at all just types or makes a comment or two. It doesn't help when you have immature players, who like to act like women don't exist in this game. I've heard crap like G.I.R.L or pics or it didn't happen, etc. So, on one hand I can understand why the OP was annoyed by the concept art thing, mostly due to stupidity of the immature playerbase, but on the other hand, it was concept art. I don't care if a male or female is wearing the armor myself long as it gets the point of the art across. Though, it WOULD be nice to be able to put a metal bikini on a male toon. That'd make me wonder if they manscaped beforehand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Ah, that debate -- because this thread needs to be even more contentious and venomous.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSchuyler Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 (edited) I've never used the word "gobsmacked" before, but somehow it seems appropriately klutzy for this topic and responses. Let me see if I have this straight. Some people are upset that EA/BW has used some art work in a marketing campaign that does not depict females. This is somehow "wrong" BECAUSE the majority of PEOPLE are FEMALE (a spurious, pedantic, and irrelevant point when you are discussing a targeted marketing campaign), therefore BW/EA is sexist, racist, misogynist, and a variety of other derogatory names because they are "missing" a marketing opportunity. People know this because those who are ALREADY SUBSCRIBED, i.e.: already succumbed to the marketing "genius" of EA/BW, are pointing this out. Having never taken even an introductory marketing class, they are marketing experts all, we see. And not only that, the 200 replies are calling each other names, pointing out that others have "missed the point," touting their superior abilities at logic and insight, and generally creating a little mini-furor over this issue, a self-important tempest in a teapot that to the rest of the world is laughingly, hysterically inane. All because someone deemed it fit and proper to "point out" OVER half the population of 7 billion plus souls on this planet are female. DUH!! What this entire thread shows more than any other single factor is why BW/EA should completely ignore and write off anything posted on these forums. It is a complete waste of time for them to even read them. And further, the forums themselves are simply a drain on resources. They should simply be eliminated. There are other forums out there; people will find them. There's no reason for BW/EA to be in the forum business at all. Keep the web site for orders and announcements. Period. The rest of this stuff is overwhelmingly stupid and does not justify the rare gems of wisdom and insight which, despite all odds to the contrary, miraculously appear from time to time. It's just not worth it. Edited October 18, 2014 by MSchuyler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 The irony is, if they don't listen to anyone one the forums, they won't take your advice to shut down the forums... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dras_Keto Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 The single best information gathering organisation in the world puts the ratio of men to women at 101 to 100. But whether its 101 men for every 100 women, 5 men for every 1000 women, or 3872 men for every 2873 women, it makes no difference at all whatsoever. The only thing about these drawings that merits any attention or warrants any concern is that fact that the knight is holding a double bladed lightsaber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiranK Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 It's almost like mostly males play this game! That damned business model. How dare they pander to their audience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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