Class Roles won't change in 3.0, right?

[Highsis]

I'm very conflicted as to what classes I'm going to roll because I heard everything is going to change when 3.0 kicks in. However, basic class roles would not shift, would it? Does anyone have speculations? For instance, would operatives still be the best healers and whatnot?

[hadoken]

Well in terms of 'best' I expect that stuff to change, but in terms of can an operative heal or dps but not tank I expect to remain the same.

[Malastare]

I'm very conflicted as to what classes I'm going to roll because I heard everything is going to change when 3.0 kicks in.

 

You heard wrong. Whoever your source was, you should think twice before trusting them in the future.

 

However, basic class roles would not shift, would it?

 

No. Class roles remain the same. Advanced classes stay the same. Advanced class specializations are the same, even to the point of having pretty much the same abilities.

 

Does anyone have speculations?

 

Why speculate when we have hard information? (That's still development info, but its unlikely to change much... maybe some percentages or small stat tweaks).

 

For instance, would operatives still be the best healers and whatnot?

 

No.

 

You should never assume that any particular class will always be the "best" at any particular thing. MMOs are living games and they get rebalanced all the time. Operatives/Scoundrels will be healers. So are Sorcs/Sages and Commandos/Mercs. You should never assume that one will be reliably better than another for a long period of time.

 

For the moment, Operatives/Scoundrels are regarded as the "best". That's an opinion backed by subjective stats. With 3.0, Sorc/Sage and Commando/Merc abilities are being rebalanced and modified. There's no telling just who the community will arbitrarily determine to be the "best".

 

The only guarantee is that the community's definition of "best" will be subjective and that the difference from one healer to another, one DPS to another, and one tank to another will be minimized. If it isn't at launch, it likely will be in the future. The whole point of this change is to make it easier to balance all the classes, so there is no clear "best".

[Highsis]

.....

 

 

Thanks for the detailed reply. I'm not familiar with the game and can't derive much info from the official announcements.

 

To just confirm, judging from sorcerer abilities, you think a specialization's identity such as an operative medic being a 'stealthy healer' or a specific specialization having 'burst damage' as opposed to 'damage over time' would not change, right?

 

I'm more concerned with class/specialization identity than their competence, so to speak. I want to distribute roles evenly, with my favourite specializations on my favourite faction. It will cause a identity crisis if that core function changes.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Highsis

[Malastare]

To just confirm, judging from sorcerer abilities, you think a specialization's identity such as an operative medic being a 'stealthy healer' or a specific specialization having 'burst damage' as opposed to 'damage over time' would not change, right?

 

Nope. ... or Yup. Or... Negative questions are impossible:

 

Your understanding is correct. That's exactly the sort of thing (they say) they're trying to preserve: They are not changing the types of roles an AC can play, nor the overall feel of those different roles.

 

For the moment, we only have one example, the Sorceror. And the three trees have been turned into three DIsciplines: Healing, DPS-Burst and DPS-DoT.

 

However, there are differences. Sorc was popular for both DPS and Heal/DPS hybrids, and while they are killing all chance of hybrids, they seem to have acknowledged the usefulness of them. The DPS-Burst tree (Lightning) is getting some bonuses to DoT abilities, and the DPS-DoT tree (Madness) is getting some improvements to burst abilities and some mild healing improvements.

 

Even more important is that all three Disciplines share a pool of optional extra abilities that range from the popular heal-on-Overload, to mild damage buffs for both burst and DoT skills, to survivability skills. The community seems particularly obsessed with one upgrade that would let Sorcs cast one of the core abilities from their Discipline while moving. You don't get to pick which one, but it basically turns one of your stand-and-wait attacks into a running-channel attack. It will likely make both healing and DPS a little more survivable.

 

I'm more concerned with class/specialization identity than their competence, so to speak. I want to distribute roles evenly, with my favourite specializations on my favourite faction. It will cause a identity crisis if that core function changes.

 

The new Disciplines system is all about maintaining identity. They wanted to keep the same feel, while improving balance across all ACs. You should expect a little less "purity" in the builds: DoT specs will likely get some small buffs in non-DoT skills, and the extra abilities will give you the option to blur that line further if you like. However, they're not removing the current "feel" of the trees. If anything, they are "enforcing" them.

 

No one can say for sure until we play it, but with the information we have now, and what you're saying about how you play, I think the Disciplines system is exactly what you'd want it to be: Strong identity with some option to adjust for different personality/playstyle.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Malastare

[AlexModny]

No. Class roles remain the same. Advanced classes stay the same. Advanced class specializations are the same, even to the point of having pretty much the same abilities.

 

Malastare is 100% correct. Disciplines/3.0 will not cause any changes to which roles are available to an Advanced Classes.

 

To just confirm, judging from sorcerer abilities, you think a specialization's identity such as an operative medic being a 'stealthy healer' or a specific specialization having 'burst damage' as opposed to 'damage over time' would not change, right?

 

That is correct. No former Skill Tree Specialization (Medicine Operative is still, in your words, a 'stealthy healer') has had their role or identity changed. The biggest change is some former specializations have had their names changed as there are no longer fully shared specs. For example, in the Live Stream on Disciplines you could see that Madness Assassin had a name change to Hatred, but it still retains its former identity.

Edited October 14, 2014 by TaitWatson

[AlexModny]

I think the Disciplines system is exactly what you'd want it to be: Strong identity with some option to adjust for different personality/playstyle.

 

The sound of that I like!

[Macarrin]

I'm a little disappointed. I was hoping for a new Cunning tank tree to go with all that shield/defense Cunning gear I keep looting

[Anysao]

I'm a little disappointed. I was hoping for a new Cunning tank tree to go with all that shield/defense Cunning gear I keep looting

 

Actually I kind of feel for you... Why is it we've never seen a ranged tank class? The gear is obviously in the game for it...

[Max_Killjoy]

...

The new Disciplines system is all about maintaining identity.

...

However, they're not removing the current "feel" of the trees. If anything, they are "enforcing" them.

...

Strong identity with some option to adjust for different personality/playstyle.

...

 

And that's actually the problem with the new system -- cramming "identity" down the players throats regardless of what they happen to have been doing with the character in the current system.

[Malastare]

I'm a little disappointed. I was hoping for a new Cunning tank tree to go with all that shield/defense Cunning gear I keep looting

 

And I wanted a new BH AC ("The Drunken Has-Been") who could dual-weild all those Aim knives I've been stockpiling. They'll come in useful someday, I swear it.

[Malastare]

And that's actually the problem with the new system -- cramming "identity" down the players throats regardless of what they happen to have been doing with the character in the current system.

 

Take your pick:

 

1. Multiple, free-form skill trees
   
2. Game Balance
   

[Max_Killjoy]

Take your pick:

 

1. Multiple, free-form skill trees
   
2. Game Balance
   

 

False dichotomy.

[TUXs]

Malastare is 100% correct. Disciplines/3.0 will not cause any changes to which roles are available to an Advanced Classes.

 

That is correct. No former Skill Tree Specialization (Medicine Operative is still, in your words, a 'stealthy healer') has had their role or identity changed. The biggest change is some former specializations have had their names changed as there are no longer fully shared specs. For example, in the Live Stream on Disciplines you could see that Madness Assassin had a name change to Hatred, but it still retains its former identity.

 

Thanks for the answers Alex. Any idea when (assuming before 3.0 hits) we might get a chance to see the rest of the new Class Disciplines? I'd really like to see what you have in store for Mando/VG in particular

[GalaxyStrong]

Malastare is 100% correct. Disciplines/3.0 will not cause any changes to which roles are available to an Advanced Classes.

 

 

 

That is correct. No former Skill Tree Specialization (Medicine Operative is still, in your words, a 'stealthy healer') has had their role or identity changed. The biggest change is some former specializations have had their names changed as there are no longer fully shared specs. For example, in the Live Stream on Disciplines you could see that Madness Assassin had a name change to Hatred, but it still retains its former identity.

 

That makes sense but what about tweaking certain Advanced Classes.

 

Obvious Example - DPS VanGaurds getting to choose more ranged abilities over Melee via Utilitie Disciplines .

 

Something like that

[Malastare]

False dichotomy.

 

Explain how this game could have both.

[hadoken]

Explain how this game could have both.

 

I'd be careful in implying that the new system will make the game more balanced than it has been.

[Max_Killjoy]

Explain how this game could have both.

 

1) There has to be a way, even under the new system, to allow customization outside the "here's your progression, enjoy the top-level skills you didn't want" method that we saw on the preview of the Sorc disciplines, while still avoiding the FotM and supposed balancing headaches of the current system.

 

2) Given past experience when similar changes have been made in other games, we have absolutely no reason to believe that this change will in fact bring more balance. It is more likely that it will have no effect on balance, and we'll be losing choices for nothing.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[MisterBlackJack]

I'd be careful in implying that the new system will make the game more balanced than it has been.

 

It removes hybrids which is half of the balancing issues

[MisterBlackJack]

1) There has to be a way, even under the new system, to allow customization outside the "here's your progression, enjoy the top-level skills you didn't want" method that we saw on the preview of the Sorc disciplines, while still avoiding the FotM and supposed balancing headaches of the current system.

 

2) Given past experience when similar changes have been made in other games, we have absolutely no reason to believe that this change will in fact bring more balance. It is more likely that it will have no effect on balance, and we'll be losing choices for nothing.

 

You still didn't answer his/her question

[DanNV]

1) There has to be a way, even under the new system, to allow customization outside the "here's your progression, enjoy the top-level skills you didn't want" method that we saw on the preview of the Sorc disciplines, while still avoiding the FotM and supposed balancing headaches of the current system.

 

2) Given past experience when similar changes have been made in other games, we have absolutely no reason to believe that this change will in fact bring more balance. It is more likely that it will have no effect on balance, and we'll be losing choices for nothing.

 

Did you watch the stream? The Devs stated they can't balance for all of the combinations you get when you allow hybrids. That problem gets worse as level caps go up. So, you get balance or you get customizability (hybrids). Considering the amount of griping about balance, I don't blame them for going for balance over customization. Personally, I'm glad to see it and glad to see hybrids out.

 

You get to customize based on the utilities you pick. How much we don't know yet. We won't know until they show us more of it. Give it a rest and see what they actually will allow once we see all of it.

[Max_Killjoy]

Did you watch the stream? The Devs stated they can't balance for all of the combinations you get when you allow hybrids. That problem gets worse as level caps go up. So, you get balance or you get customizability (hybrids). Considering the amount of griping about balance, I don't blame them for going for balance over customization. Personally, I'm glad to see it and glad to see hybrids out.

 

You get to customize based on the utilities you pick. How much we don't know yet. We won't know until they show us more of it. Give it a rest and see what they actually will allow once we see all of it.

 

I did specifically mention that more flexibility could be allowed under the new system -- one immediate idea would be to allow a player to forgo the upper half of the progression from one Discipline to take the lower halves from two different Disciplines.

 

From what we've already seen, it's going to be bad -- characters will end up with the "tree-top" skills whether the player wants them or not, at the expense of anything else they might have taken in lieu of them before.

[hadoken]

It removes hybrids which is half of the balancing issues

 

I'm just saying in other games this kind of claim has been made to support radical changes like this and the games haven't been any more balanced. It's just a really hard if not impossible to do thing, and if people are expecting something huge from this they should be prepared to be disappointed.

[MisterBlackJack]

I did specifically mention that more flexibility could be allowed under the new system -- one immediate idea would be to allow a player to forgo the upper half of the progression from one Discipline to take the lower halves from two different Disciplines.

 

From what we've already seen, it's going to be bad -- characters will end up with the "tree-top" skills whether the player wants them or not, at the expense of anything else they might have taken in lieu of them before.

 

In that scenario you might as well keep the current system. In fact that would probably make it even worse than the current one. One of the main points of this change is to stop the very thing you wish to implement. Hybridization.

[MisterBlackJack]

I'm just saying in other games this kind of claim has been made to support radical changes like this and the games haven't been any more balanced. It's just a really hard if not impossible to do thing, and if people are expecting something huge from this they should be prepared to be disappointed.

 

No one supporting this chnage is saying this will make everything Balance. What they are saying is it will be "Easier" to balance because now the devs can focus on specific trees without worrying about creating a hybrid scenario that makes it OP compared to full trees. Also it allows them to spend less time in balancing and more time in developing content. So would you prefer more content in a given cycle or devs spending more time trying to balance things out due to people making hybrids.