AlrikFassbauer Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Do you guys NOT want to frustrate your enemies? What the heck? Of course I love winning. I mean, this logic applies to chess. You have all the pieces, are the people just playing because they want to crush their opponents? You got something VERY, VERY wrong there. Games are not about hurting others. Or, to use different words for what I mean, in RL, I would instantly quit playing with people who solely play with me to see me being hurt. And frustrated. I consider them as Sadists. I have been bullied in my youth, and that was an experience. I do know that some people take pure joy from out of the fact that the other one is hurt. They seem to bath in the feeling of pain others have - very much like the Sith of Star Wars do. Bullying is fun to the bullies - because otherwise they wouldn't do it. And that's what I find frightening. That people can hide in The Internet Anonymity so deep that no-one nnotices their anti-social behaviour (which they woul never ever show in RL, because that would mean losing friends. Or, even worse, they just don't care if they lose froiends because of their behaviour. Hooligans only have Hooligans as friends). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 1) Reduced reticule size and joystick ability added (more twitchy, skill based) You realize this would make it less appealing to new players? All this would do is increase the skill gaps, and on top of that you threw a hardware requirement (whether or not its a perceived one is irrelevant) That's not how you bring new people in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyghtrunner Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 T1 Gunship as well costs 2.5k. It's actually a very weak version of what Verain suggested with more difficult ships costing more. The 2.5k ships are straightforward and effective, while the badly designed T2 gunship, the underwhelming T2 strike, the 'hybrid' T3 gunship and bomber and the support/utility T3 strike and scout are all more expensive, so there's a (weak) suggestion that new players should get the simple, powerful T1 bomber and gunship as their first ships beyond the starters. I didn't know that. But then, I was a sub for the early access (still am) and never had to buy the T1 GS. I guess the idea is that you can get 1 of each ship type for a grand total of 5k fleet req. I doubt it has anything to do with being straightforward and effective, so much as just being the T1. Knowing this makes the 2.5k bomber make a lot more sense, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verain Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Games are not about hurting others. Or, to use different words for what I mean, in RL, I would instantly quit playing with people who solely play with me to see me being hurt. And frustrated. It's PvP, so you aren't playing WITH them, you are playing AGAINST them. Quitting is just another way of letting them win! Competitive games have competition- this should be a surprise to no one. I consider them as Sadists. I think that's pretty wild. There could be some overlap, but this is a fundamentally virtual, safe, and consensual environment. I think if there's a connection, it's a thin one, and making you frustrated in a video game is not the same thing as frustrating you with anything that maps to a real world concern. I have been bullied in my youth, and that was an experience. That's awful, but consensual pvp is not the same thing. They seem to bath in the feeling of pain others have - very much like the Sith of Star Wars do. I mean, if you are my opponent, it's my DUTY to hurt you in game, and if that frustrates you out of game, great, bonus! But it doesn't NEED to frustrate you out of game- that's ultimately in your control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakkolich Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 You got something VERY, VERY wrong there. Games are not about hurting others. Or, to use different words for what I mean, in RL, I would instantly quit playing with people who solely play with me to see me being hurt. And frustrated. I consider them as Sadists. I have been bullied in my youth, and that was an experience. I do know that some people take pure joy from out of the fact that the other one is hurt. They seem to bath in the feeling of pain others have - very much like the Sith of Star Wars do. Bullying is fun to the bullies - because otherwise they wouldn't do it. And that's what I find frightening. That people can hide in The Internet Anonymity so deep that no-one nnotices their anti-social behaviour (which they woul never ever show in RL, because that would mean losing friends. Or, even worse, they just don't care if they lose froiends because of their behaviour. Hooligans only have Hooligans as friends). This seems a bit overboard to me, I mean I know there are people out there that do this, but I'm pretty sure what Verain meant is in a PvP setting you have to play to win. Frustrating an opponent in a game is kinda of a side effect of trying to win. Let's take the board game "Sorry" when you draw the Sorry card you can bump anyone back home and take that pieces spot, many times I've bumped someone home that was about to win instead of putting myself closer to winning, as that game me the larger chance of winning the entire game. That had to be super frustrating for the player that was almost there, this doesn't mean I'm a sadist for this, however I definitely wanted to do this frustrating move as it was my best chance at winning. Just thought I'd throw it out there that playing to win and frustrating other players kind of goes hand in hand. Everyone gets mad when they lose, even if its only a little bit mad. This is the "I aim to frustrate" players I'm pretty sure Verain was talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verain Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 but I'm pretty sure what Verain meant is in a PvP setting you have to play to win. That's correct, but I'd be lying if I didn't say I enjoy blowing up the other team. I feel that these things all help your team, and help you win. I enjoy competition and winning, and those drive me. Frustrating an opponent in a game is kinda of a side effect of trying to win. I definitely enjoy snaring, dotting, and blowing up opponents though. I don't do it with reluctance, and while I keep my mind on the goal of winning, I greatly enjoy: > Leaving an enemy helpless while an ally destroys him > Leaving an enemy helpless to die from a dot > Enraging an enemy who cannot kill me or my allies > Farming an enemy at spawn > Bursting an enemy down instantly, such as with crits or simul-shots. But there's a pretty big flip side here. I also am a huge fan of: > Healing an ally to full. > Buffing an ally to be faster or more accurate > Snaring enemies so that they can't kill an ally, but the ally can kill them. This probably my actual favorite thing in the game. When Stasie or you is in a furball on a scout, and I'm on a gunship, I cannot express how satisfying it is to spam ion into them, draining their ability to shoot and turn and run. The change is immediate and visceral, and if you listen to my voice calls, the one thing I find very frustrating is when I cannot peel, or when my ion is chain dodged by some bad RNG- it is the only thing I say into chat that is tactically worthless because it bothers me so. > Setting up a defensive embankment that allies can run to for safety and succor. So am I sadist for the first set, and some kind of saint for the second? Of course not. I'm a gamer, and having an impact in the game is satisfying. I wouldn't be pleased healing a friendly bot, or pleased at blowing up an enemy bot, but the fact that there's a player on the other side makes these things important. This is the "I aim to frustrate" players I'm pretty sure Verain was talking about. I greatly enjoy frustrating enemies and pleasing allies. I think that's a huge part of the game. I play to be victorious, of course- if I have to blow up to get the win, or let an ally die or leave an enemy who is evasive but I want to see explode escape, I will do those things. But those are two separate statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asbetos Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Its a fair point, but I think the current design, as structured, unfortunately promotes this problem. I take call of duty as an example. It is a game similar to GSF....you enter a map, fight to control key points, once you control those points you win the match. You also die and respawn, and your death and kill count is tallied. Simple. The difference is that in CoD the upgrades you get are based on performance but do not overpower you...they give a slight edge in gameplay. The most powerful ones are based on streaks, but more moderate ones are based on cumulative play performance. Instead, this model, as designed IMO, it more a hybrid of the current PVP progression system and BF2 without the on-foot element. Therefore upgrades and progression make a real noticeable difference in how strong you are, and that makes the game much less approachable for the masses. I had suggested that the top level abilities should be reduced in strength, and instead there should be kill streak bonuses and powerups added. I have also suggested in the past that powerups could appear on the map for anyone to grab. But your point about bombers and gunships is also valid IMO. That really points to the weakness of the others ships offered more than the overpowered state of those vessels IMO. They are not fast enough, nor are their shields strong enough to avoid the one shot problem. Again, I completely agree. However, CoD is an FPS game and FPS communities are much different than MMO ones. FPS players are driven by the competitiveness and to be better than others, while that's mostly not the case with MMO players. CoD has snipers. They can kill you in one shot...but naturally it is difficult to do so. In this game it is much easier to snipe the enemy, and perhaps that is part of the problem as well. That is why I promote the BF2 style for this feature. I haven't played CoD MP since CoD:UO, but I played AA (Americas Army) for quite a few years (up until the death of 2.8.5) and played sniper a lot. I find it much easier there than gunship here because you can literally camp and if you're good enough, the enemy team needs at least 2-3 players rushing you at the same time to kill you. Not to mention that 1 hit anywhere except the limbs is a kill-shot which is not the case here (only crit on a scout or DO can be a 1-shot). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted October 18, 2014 Author Share Posted October 18, 2014 (edited) Again, I completely agree. However, CoD is an FPS game and FPS communities are much different than MMO ones. FPS players are driven by the competitiveness and to be better than others, while that's mostly not the case with MMO players. I haven't played CoD MP since CoD:UO, but I played AA (Americas Army) for quite a few years (up until the death of 2.8.5) and played sniper a lot. I find it much easier there than gunship here because you can literally camp and if you're good enough, the enemy team needs at least 2-3 players rushing you at the same time to kill you. Not to mention that 1 hit anywhere except the limbs is a kill-shot which is not the case here (only crit on a scout or DO can be a 1-shot). Fair points I think. In the end I think many can agree that something is turning folks away from the feature. Perhaps the increase in upgrade speed will help, but I think more can be done. Some good suggestions in this thread (other than mine of course). Edited October 18, 2014 by LordArtemis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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