Beniboybling Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) I never said it was a for sure thing. Though, one would think they would start to feel ill-at-ease being on the same side as so many CIS units... Not to mention what do they really know of Lumiya? And Rebels/Imperials teamed up all the time, not that unusual really. During Pellaeon's time at least. If your implying that the Storm Commandos will see the B2s as a symbol of the CIS and the terrors of the Clone Wars, then I'd retort by saying that as elite troops, they are above such sentiment. They are tools, and will view them as such. Same really applies to Lumiya, she is an Imperial, she is they're boss, they follow her orders. I mean lets be honest, if they didn't already during Stomtrooper training, these guys will have undergone mental conditioning. Though I will admit, the droids are bound to have an impact on the 501st, many being Clone Wars veterans (correct?) Edited October 15, 2014 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 And I am still waiting for that Ziro the Hutt explanation, Beni. All in good time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) If your implying that the Storm Commandos will see the B2s as a symbol of the CIS and the terrors of the Clone Wars, then I'd retort by saying that as elite troops, they are above such sentiment. They are tools, and will view them as such. Same really applies to Lumiya, she is an Imperial, she is they're boss, they follow her orders. Though I will admit, its bound to have an impact on the 501st, many being Clone Wars veterans (correct?) That was my next point. Sure they are loyal to their boss, Lumiya, but when they start going against the 501st, who they know to be Clone Wars vets, as well as all of the imperial hardware... When they look around and only see droids... Let us just say that even elite troops have to question their boss. Only 1 Imperial, that has their entire history shrouded in mystery, the only thing they know, being that she used to be one of the Emperors Hands. On the other side, they see all the makings of the Empire, brothers in the 501st, and the Legendary Pellaeon, who held the Empire together through its rough patches. They are loyal elite troops, not droids. Side Note: Just because they are elite does not mean they can not defect. Were there not clones who defected and hid on Mandalore? Any Imperial worth their salt knows that the 501st would never betray the Empire. They were Vader's Fist, and whoever commanded them likely had quite a legitimate claim to the Empire. Edited October 15, 2014 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) That was my next point. Sure they are loyal to their boss, Lumiya, but when they start going against the 501st, who they know to be Clone Wars vets, as well as all of the imperial hardware... When they look around and only see droids... Let us just say that even elite troops have to question their boss. Only 1 Imperial, that has their entire history shrouded in mystery, the only thing they know, being that she used to be one of the Emperors Hands. On the other side, they see all the makings of the Empire, brothers in the 501st, and the Legendary Pellaeon, who held the Empire together through its rough patches. They are loyal elite troops, not droids.Traitors to the Empire! All of them! And don't forget Imperial Intelligence, what Imperial infrastructure does the Alliance possess? What ties to the Empire does it have aside from traitors and titles? And perhaps, a few stolen warships? And yes all the makings of the Empire, the 501st, Paelleon, Rebel soldiers, a Jedi, a key rebel leader, those damn Bothan spies... wait a minute! Stormtroopers are not what make the Galactic Empire, what makes the Empire are ideals the Alliance lacks. Edited October 15, 2014 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Traitors to the Empire! All of them! And don't forget Imperial Intelligence, what Imperial infrastructure does the Alliance possess? What ties to the Empire does it have aside from traitors and titles? And perhaps, a few stolen warships? And yes all the makings of the Empire, the 501st, Paelleon, Rebel soldiers, a Jedi, a key rebel leader, those damn Bothan spies... wait a minute! Stormtroopers are not what make the Galactic Empire, what makes the Empire are ideals the Alliance lacks. Palleon is those ideals basically right now...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) Side Note: Just because they are elite does not mean they can not defect. It means they don't question orders, it means they are influenced by sentiment, it means they are fanatically loyal, it means they are trained, brainwashed or otherwise made immune to any attempts to make double-agents of them. EDIT: They will believe anything they are told without question, and Lumiya will tell them Gilad and the 501st are traitors. EDIT: It also means, as a covert force, they will be difficult to contact, and not likely to be trusted. Edited October 15, 2014 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) Palleon is those ideals basically right now......Ideals that do not align with those of his Rebel friends. In the eyes of an outside, Gilad has sacrificed those ideals. Edited October 15, 2014 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) Ideals that do not align with those of his Rebel friends. Not neccisarily, when talking about the ideals of the Empire and the Ideals of Palleon and what the 501st fight for at this time, it becomes exceedingly difficult to explain, but suffice to say neither side should really have any one defecting as of right now. Its more of a rebels and Empire banding together to defeat another Imperial splinter group and droid army. Reminds me very much of the Imperial Remnants in fighting after the death of Palpatine. One just has the backing of the CIS the other has the backing of the New Republic/ Rebel Alliance. Edited October 15, 2014 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Ideals that do not align with those of his Rebel friends. In the eyes of an outside, Gilad has sacrificed those ideals. You have forced my hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) EDIT: They will believe anything they are told without question, and Lumiya will tell them Gilad and the 501st are traitors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p_P6Tmp0CE Good luck with convincing any Imperial of that... Edited October 15, 2014 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 GREATEST, SCORING METHOD..... EVER..... so much information, easy to understand.... brilliant. Why, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p_P6Tmp0CE Good luck with convincing any Imperial of that...They are fighting along side Rebels, your proof sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I agree with Beni regarding this defection argument. Sure, the GA has Pellaeon, but it also has things a Stormtrooper will not like. Rebel ships, Rebel soldiers, Rebel Commanders, etc. Heck the GA even has Jedi. The Jedi attempted to assassinate their Emperor, the man that these soldiers are conditioned to follow without question. Pellaeon and the 501st will be traitors in their eyes, traitors who have sided with these rebels and Jedi. They will see it as their duty to cull these traitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 They are fighting along side Rebels, your proof sir. And THEY are fighting along side many B2's, there is your proof sir. I just think that the fact that they are surrounded by those that they constantly considered enemies in the past could cause them to question Lumiya's backround which is shrouded in mystery. All they really know about her is that she is an Imperial, and she can use the force. Other than that, she tended to hide her history and work from the shadows. Whereas on the other side there are a few strong Rebel leaders, yes, but there is also the greatest none force user Imperial leader other than Thrawn himself, as the Commander and Chief of the GA forces. They very well could assume that he finally forced them to surrender and been assimilated by the Empire. Many ways it could be spun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) Actually Beni has a point, Captain Shale who led some Storm Commandos told Vader was a traitor(and thus the 501st that was with Vader), that he was wanting to kill Admiral Tarkin(son of Moff Tarkin) and they had no problems of fighting against the 501st or Vader. Edited October 15, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) Actually Beni has a point, Captain Shale who led some Storm Commandos told Vader was a traitor(and thus the 501st that was with Vader), that he was wanting to kill Admiral Tarkin(son of Moff Tarkin) and they had no problems of fighting against the 501st or Vader. Yep, and again I point to the Imperial Remnants. Different Warlords, different troopers backed different people. All this is, is 2 Imperial Splinter groups with 2 different groups backing them. 1 Is CIS droids which the Empire doesnt like, and the other is Rebels which the Empire doesnt like. At the end of the day they have already chosen the neccisarry evil to take out the other Imperial Splinter group. Edit: IE focusing less on what would/should happen more on history of star wars and what has happened, in this case we have already seen similar with the Remnant Edited October 15, 2014 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) And THEY are fighting along side many B2's, there is your proof sir. I just think that the fact that they are surrounded by those that they constantly considered enemies in the past could cause them to question Lumiya's backround which is shrouded in mystery. All they really know about her is that she is an Imperial, and she can use the force. Other than that, she tended to hide her history and work from the shadows. Whereas on the other side there are a few strong Rebel leaders, yes, but there is also the greatest none force user Imperial leader other than Thrawn himself, as the Commander and Chief of the GA forces. They very well could assume that he finally forced them to surrender and been assimilated by the Empire. Many ways it could be spun.Scraps of non-autonomous metal. They mean nothing. Again no Storm Commando will be so sentimental as to be repulsed by an inanimate object, which has no mind of its own, and can't be affiliated with sentient ideals. And again, storm commandos don't care about the spin on the story. They follow orders, without question. Lumiya is an Imperial and their superior, it doesn't even matter what they think, they will follow orders no matter what. But really, they have little reason to suspect Lumiya of not being what she appears, after all she is. Edited October 15, 2014 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Actually Beni has a point, Captain Shale who led some Storm Commandos told Vader was a traitor(and thus the 501st that was with Vader), that he was wanting to kill Admiral Tarkin(son of Moff Tarkin) and they had no problems of fighting against the 501st or Vader. Told by whom? The key point I am trying to drive it, is that their main link to the Empire is Lumiya, which lets face it, they know next to nothing about due to how she operates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) Told by whom? The key point I am trying to drive it, is that their main link to the Empire is Lumiya, which lets face it, they know next to nothing about due to how she operates. Told by Shale who was leading them. It won't really matter who is leading them, if they figure the 501st has gone rogue, they won't have any quelms about fighting with them...which it looks to me they appear as such. Edited October 15, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Told by Shale who was leading them. I am not familiar with this... Shale... Had he been a long time leader of that group of Commandos? And where did he come by the information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karadron Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Scraps of non-autonomous metal. They mean nothing. Again no Storm Commando will be so sentimental as to be repulsed by an inanimate object, which has no mind of its own, and can't be affiliated with sentient ideals. And again, storm commandos don't care about the spin on the story. They follow orders, without question. Lumiya is an Imperial and their superior, it doesn't even matter what they think, they will follow orders no matter what. But really, they have little reason to suspect Lumiya of not being what she appears, after all she is. Using similar logic then the Rebel SpecOps will have no issue working with Stormtroopers. After all they are practically the same in form and function as the Storm Commandos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I am not familiar with this... Shale... Had he been a long time leader of that group of Commandos? And where did he come by the information? He made up the information. As for how long, unsure of that, he was a captain in the Imperial Navy...why he was leading Storm Commandos...no clue, although I guess it's further explained in the Last Command comic series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 I am not familiar with this... Shale... Had he been a long time leader of that group of Commandos? And where did he come by the information?From what I just read on Wookieepedia, Shale was accompanying Vader on a mission with some Storm Commandos, then Shale turned traitor and told his commandos Vader was a traitor, they obeyed their superiors orders without question, and turned on Vader. Whoever this Shale chap was, he has a lot less authority than Lumiya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 Using similar logic then the Rebel SpecOps will have no issue working with Stormtroopers. After all they are practically the same in form and function as the Storm Commandos.But I'd argue they are far less disciplined, and far more susceptible to sentiment considering their main reasons for become SpecForce troopers was probably a bitter hatred of the Empire. Though I agree, Garm's word will carry weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 From what I just read on Wookieepedia, Shale was accompanying Vader on a mission with some Storm Commandos, then Shale turned traitor and told his commandos Vader was a traitor, they obeyed their superiors orders without question, and turned on Vader. Whoever this Shale chap was, he has a lot less authority than Lumiya. I just read it as well and that actually gives it more ammunition for the defection theory. Shale and his storm commandos turned against Vader after many, MANY disagreements in how to go about the entire operation. They were disgusted with his lack of concern for life as well as the fact there was proof that the one they had come to retrieve, had betrayed the Empire. In essence, Lumiya will make many decisions similar to what Vader did, which could cause them to question her word saying that Pellaeon is a traitor. Not quite as stone cold these Storm Commandos as you said they were, after reading that page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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