Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Galactic Alliance vs Phantom Hegemony

[karadron]

A lone A wing can take out that bridge.

 

Yeah that's true.

[tunewalker]

To be fair to these ships vs the Vong ships, the Vong didnt have any form of Particle shielding, and the purpose of the Shadow Bomb technique was to bypass the Dovin Basals. They had the same yield as a Proton Torp other wise. So if you are intending to stealth hit them with one of those Proton Torps where they arent shielded then ya 1 Torp should destroy the whole ship. With Particle shielding though I would think it would take at least 3, assuming no capital ships are firing on it, with capital ships exchanging fire 2 would probably be enough to both overload the shields and THEN destroy the ship, but still wont be easy.

 

 

 

Edit: also while I believe I have talked about Organic vs Droid pilots giving it a severe advantage in the realm of Organic especially Rebel Pilots because if there was 1 thing the Rebels did better then the Empire it was their Pilots and I would argue they were on par with if not better then the Clones as well, it comes down to experience and the Clone Pilots were almost TO indoctrinated by comparison to Rebel Pilots, example there was 1 book where the Rebels decided to give all their pilots a simulation test to be allowed to fly both Luke and Han failed these test, then they fought some technically superior guys that had studied the test the Rebels were given and fought the Rebels and started beating them. Then Lando called help from Han and Luke and told Wedge and the rest of the group to forget the simulation and the Formations and all that and fly like their usual rebel selves, and it completely turned the battle baffling the opponents with technically risky maneuvers that most shouldnt do, but the skill of the pilots meant that the risky maneuvers were honestly just what they always did and were tried and true.

 

That being said though, numbers should not be ignored, I do feel that the numerical advantage of the droids does make up for the organics greater skill so to me the odds are even.

Edited October 15, 2014 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

To be fair to these ships vs the Vong ships, the Vong didnt have any form of Particle shielding, and the purpose of the Shadow Bomb technique was to bypass the Dovin Basals. They had the same yield as a Proton Torp other wise. So if you are intending to stealth hit them with one of those Proton Torps where they arent shielded then ya 1 Torp should destroy the whole ship. With Particle shielding though I would think it would take at least 3, assuming no capital ships are firing on it, with capital ships exchanging fire 2 would probably be enough to both overload the shields and THEN destroy the ship, but still wont be easy.

 

Wookieepedia claims the shadow bomb is vastly superior to the standard torpedo as far as firepower goes.

[tunewalker]

Wookieepedia claims the shadow bomb is vastly superior to the standard torpedo as far as firepower goes.

 

That may be true, I dont know, just gave my thoughts on the subject. I thought the Shadow bomb was just a Proton Torp Launched with the force rather then a system I could easily be wrong.

[Aurbere]

That may be true, I dont know, just gave my thoughts on the subject. I thought the Shadow bomb was just a Proton Torp Launched with the force rather then a system I could easily be wrong.

 

I'll quote Wookieepedia here:

 

A Jedi shadow bomb was essentially a proton torpedo with the guidance package and propellant fuel replaced by packed baradium, the explosive material used in thermal detonators. Instead of locking onto a target and firing the shadow bomb like a normal torpedo, the Jedi utilized the weapon with use of the Force to propel the bomb into an enemy ship. The extra explosives stored within each missile vastly increased their individual destructive power; a pair of well-placed shadow bombs could cleave a Yuuzhan Vong corvette analog in half.

 

I'll look it up in the New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology. See what it says.

 

Edit: OK, it basically says the same thing about the Shadow bomb, saying it is much more powerful than a standard torpedo.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Aurbere

[Silenceo]

I would like to remind everyone that the shielding and the armoring of Munificients is extremely flimsy, very easily overwhelmed. While the Recusants are stronger in both departments, they are still comparatively weak if compared to ships of the same class, not to mention their structure allows them to be snapped in half if firepower is focused on their middle. Edited October 15, 2014 by Silenceo

[tunewalker]

I'll quote Wookieepedia here:

 

 

 

I'll look it up in the New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology. See what it says.

 

Edit: OK, it basically says the same thing about the Shadow bomb, saying it is much more powerful than a standard torpedo.

 

Oh Ok didnt know about the extra explosives put into it. I knew about how it was fired but that was about it, wish i HAD known about that when MY kaggath was going on since I had NJO knights .

Edited October 15, 2014 by tunewalker

[Wolfninjajedi]

Edit: Aurbere got it nvrm. Edited October 15, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Silenceo]

Oh Ok didnt know about the extra explosives put into it. I knew about how it was fired but that was about it, wish i HAD known about that when MY kaggath was going on since I had NJO knights .

 

Just gotta work your way up through the runner up bracket, and then...

!

[tunewalker]

Just gotta work your way up through the runner up bracket, and then...

!

 

Oh there is going to be a runners up braket...... Sigh.... I was hoping I was done.... Do I get to change stuff if I want to for the Runners up bracket? Cus I kind of want to change the MC40's I think they were into the Nova classes since Dragon's really do work best when paired with their Hapan counterpart.... and this has nothing to do with what is going on here.

Edited October 15, 2014 by tunewalker

[Silenceo]

Oh there is going to be a runners up braket...... Sigh.... I was hoping I was done.... Do I get to change stuff if I want to for the Runners up bracket?

 

Do not quote me on runners up brackets, I merely have seen hints of it, no confirmations as of yet. Though, if we are allowed to switch around a few things between rounds... I so want to make a change or two!

[Wolfninjajedi]

As always I am open to informations if needing anything.

 

Also Sil did your faction go at all? I don't recall seeing it..

Edited October 15, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Silenceo]

As always I am open to informations if needing anything.

 

Also Sil did your faction go at all? I don't recall seeing it..

 

The IDD defeated the EoP.

[tunewalker]

The IDD defeated the EoP.

 

In other words he won and got passed the incredibly powerful Biological faction using Droids. I garantee if I fought said faction I would lose.

[Wolfninjajedi]

The IDD defeated the EoP.

 

Right now I remember....

 

Also peoples, use da information I gives you in PMs! Don't forget! I work hard typing all that stuff up.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Silenceo]

EoP vs IDD points of interest.

 

 

Start of Match

 

(Lots of interesting space stuff discussed between start and end of space, about 44 pages)

 

Space Scenario

 

(Soon starts discussing indirect warfare, such as poisons, diseases, infections, defenses against such, and ect.)

 

End of Match

 

(Lots of small chat afterwards)

[Silenceo]

Right now I remember....

 

Also peoples, use da information I gives you in PMs! Don't forget! I work hard typing all that stuff up.

 

I did!...

 

Though I think most of those PM's are now buried...

[Silenceo]

In other words he won and got passed the incredibly powerful Biological faction using Droids. I garantee if I fought said faction I would lose.

 

To which faction are you referring?

[tunewalker]

To which faction are you referring?

 

If I fought the Biological faction I would not stand a chance, against yours I dont know.... it would be a bit more of a fair fight cant say who the winner would be. Just speaking the truth.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I did!...

 

Though I think most of those PM's are now buried...

 

Funny now, I had more stuff for your faction regarding pilot capabilities, but seeing as your faction is done, oh well.

[Silenceo]

Funny now, I had more stuff for your faction regarding pilot capabilities, but seeing as your faction is done, oh well.

 

If you want to PM them, I would be quite pleased to see what you have. After all, there is round 2 to consider...

[karadron]

Final(ish) Points:

 

On Commanders:

 

1. Pellaeon has fought against the ships in the PH fleet, meaning that he will have more knowledge of the enemy than it does on him.

2. Evidence points that Bel Iblis had military experience and a reputation as a tactical genius even before he started a rebel cell in the Galactic Civil War, indicating that he too fought in the Clone Wars.

3. Greivous lacks subtlety, something that could make his battle plans easier to counter. This will make counter any strategy he uses because the GA’s commanders have dealt with commanders who have much more multilayered and subtle strategies. Pellaeon vs and New Republic officer. Bel Iblis vs Thrawn.

4. Pellaeon plays well with others. He has shown the ability to work with other big name naval commanders. Add to that fact he respects Bel Iblis as a naval commander.

5. Pellaeon has experience ranging through the Clone Wars, Galactic Civil War, and Yuuzhan Vong War. He was also responsible for keeping the Empire alive during the last of these—more notable is the fact that the invasion corridor for the Vong was directly on the border to the empire.

6. Bel Iblis was considered a tactical genius—as well as the New Republics best hope in defeating Thrawn. He also led one of the most successful Rebel cells during the Galactic Civil War. Even better he won’t be hampered by politics and can do what he pleases.

7. Supreme Commander is a title that holds just as much political meaning as military. This applies to Grievous and Pellaeon. In many ways a Supreme Commander is a good officer—although plenty of examples in real history can show just as many incompetent commanders holding such positions—but it does not mean they are the best. Supreme Commanders are often chosen by politics—Pelleaon’s predecessor in the GA was fired because he had no interest in making peace with the Vong, not because he was a bad officer. As well they serve as the public face of their respective faction, as the head military honcho. Grievous provides an excellent example of the perfect visual SC—that skeletal imagery. Bel Iblis on the other hand never held the rank of Supreme Commander due to political reasons despite being a superior tactitian.

8. Grievous has a tendency to rage. It’s in his implants, and will be hard to stop even with someone looking over his shoulder. He didn’t always listen to Dooku—notably when he did have command of the Malevolence—so what’s going to keep him from ignoring Lumiya, on occasion?

9. Grievous likes to run if things get bad. It’s a fact, he’s a coward. If the Malevolence starts to go down, he’s going to run. Even better, the GA commanders know this and could work to exploit it.

10. Grievous shows success when he has surprise on his side, something he does not have here. When he lacks that element his record is a lot less wining.

11. Pellaeon and Bel Iblis worked with/fought against the greatest commander to ever live. Together they could easily pull together a foolproof method for defeating the PH. Add to that another mastermind—Tholme—and the chances for success go up even further.

12. Grievous gets overconfident easily and when that happens things can go wrong for him really fast…i.e. he dies.

13. Grievous lacks experience against his opponents’ vessels. A simple matter of being surprised by the capabilities of the GA Fleets ships could easily make him have to rethink strategy, giving crucial time that the GA fleet can hold out and wreak havoc. Especially in regard to their durability and punch. I mean the Nebulas could hold their own against smaller SSDs, for at least some time. As well there is only so much Lumiya can tell him since she has never led a campaign against these ships.

14. I have come to the conclusion that Grievous is a much better campaign planner than battlefield commander—even then I have my doubts about his overall skill in planning since it is hard to tell how much of the Clone Wars was driven by Sidious.

15. If things do go bad for the GA, Pellaeon is known for saving his fleets for another day—he saved the fleet at Endor from utter destruction via a tactical retreat.

16. I also found this quote:

You are too slow and too late, assassin. More Republic forces have arrived to reinforce the Jedi—and I have already given the order to exit the system. I'm afraid you are on your own."

"Enjoy your retreat, General. It seems to be what you do best."

―Grievous and Asajj Ventress, during the battle at Kadavo

 

 

On Strategies:

 

1. Grievous has a distinct lack of subtlety with his tactics, which can easily be countered by both Bel Iblis and Pellaeon, since experience with Thrawn, experience, and natural talent have left them with the ability to see through complex and multifaceted battle strategies.

2. I do not doubt that Pellaeon and Bel Iblis will use the planets gravity well in some way, either by using a microjump—however difficult that will be without an interdictor—or will jump out and back into system in such a way that they end up on the rear or flank of the PH fleet.

3. The fighter disparity can be dealt with by using the A-wings to guide the tri-fighters into zones where turbolasers can fire indiscriminately into the masses of the PH’s fighters. While not precise it has the potential to do damage to a lot of fighters in quick order. Especially cause they are droids and would not factor in a reckless organic strategy like this. Also due to the swarm tactics that will be deployed and the number disparity being what it is this can be very effective.

4. The TIE Phantoms can take out vulnerable fighters that are emerging from hangars, or bombers holding onto the edge of the ships. Their stealth abilities will allow them to escape detection.

5. The Chimera has a cloaking device. Whilst it is a double-blind one—they can see me ‘cause I can’t see them—timing the usage of it with events in the battle. Such as the introduction of the battle and coming out of nowhere.

6. Early important goals the GA needs is to be: keeping the Malevolence from being able to bring most of its weapons to bear, disabling its engines, or destroying it.

7. If Grievous runs, what’s to stop the GA fleet from using a tractor beam on the Soulless One and bring it in or destroy it?

8. A-wing pilots when faced with certain death would often suicide into enemy capital ships, since the fighter could cause ridiculous amounts of damage to its heat shields. Oh, and that highly exposed bridge on the Malevolence is screaming out to them, just like the Executor’s, and guess who will be on it.

9. Due to the Chimera’s cloaking device, landing or dropping boarding parties will prove difficult. Of course once on board resistance against SpaceOps troops and marines will make taking the ship hard. (Marines have been said to be a part of the basic naval aspect in previous Kaggaths.)

10. The risk of sending multiple boarding parties to varying GA ships spreads the PHs naval forces thin, whilst the GA ships will have standard marine forces potentially augmented by SpaceOps troops.

 

 

 

On Ships:

 

1. The GA fleet has several vessels capable of using cloaking technology, whilst the PH does not giving them a unique advantage in avoiding sensors.

2. A-wings have sensor jammers which will make them hard to target. It will also make it nigh impossible for the tri-fighters to get missile locks, since it affected both detection systems and target locks.

3. TIE Phantoms have stealth capabilities that allow them to only exit stealth when firing, giving them an element of surprise whenever they attack.

4. The PH fleet contains ships that are very delicate, and easy to take out.

5. The PH’s Resucants were known to run into other vessels in the same fleet, damaging allied ships.

6. Resucants were also known to focus on one target until it was destroyed, allowing other ships past with no issue.

7. Nebulas had the capability to “resist” smaller SSDs and similar ships.

8. The GA fleets capital ships are much more durable than those of the PH and can withstand more firepower.

9. TIE bombers carry a payload that is practically unmatched by other bombers. As well to make up for the fact that they lack shields they are highly armored. Empire Strikes Back shows them flying in an asteroid field for goodness sake.

10. A-wings also can serve as good intelligence craft, since they have the ability to scan enemy ships.

11. A-wing pilots had to be good (read the best), due to the sensitive nature of the crafts controls.

12. The escort carriers will serve no purpose once they have cleared their hangers, but if the GA fleet hits before they have they would be prime targets.

13. Jaina’s Stealth-X carries shadow bombs which had the power to tear Yuuzhan Vong corvettes in two. What type of damage could they do here I wonder? I’m pretty sure that they could one-shot a Munificent.

 

 

Miscellaneous:

 

1. One of the flaws that went uncountered in the previous Kaggath was the fact that B2s could be LOS’ed if any are used in boarding parties then such a strategy could easily be used to draw them into traps.

2. Tactical droids—which will be the backbone of the PH’s command structure—were known to question orders, and in some cases kill, commanding officers—which in the case of the Third Battle of Aefeo saw the Separatist saw the tactical droid executing his organic commanding officer, resulting in chaos descending on the fleet . If the battle turns poor for Grievous, he might have to deal with a mutiny.

3. The PH seems to be moving quite a bit of its ground forces for the space battle; even in the case of victory it will lose portions of its land forces. And losing such a portion of his land forces will more than hurt the PH in the engagement to follow—he loses some B2s, Storm Commandos, and Carbonite droids. So core infantry and light vehicles, whilst the GA only loses some SpaceOps troops who would have been all but useless on the ground.

 

 

[tunewalker]

Final(ish) Points:

 

On Commanders:

 

1. Pellaeon has fought against the ships in the PH fleet, meaning that he will have more knowledge of the enemy than it does on him.

2. Evidence points that Bel Iblis had military experience and a reputation as a tactical genius even before he started a rebel cell in the Galactic Civil War, indicating that he too fought in the Clone Wars.

3. Greivous lacks subtlety, something that could make his battle plans easier to counter. This will make counter any strategy he uses because the GA’s commanders have dealt with commanders who have much more multilayered and subtle strategies. Pellaeon vs and New Republic officer. Bel Iblis vs Thrawn.

4. Pellaeon plays well with others. He has shown the ability to work with other big name naval commanders. Add to that fact he respects Bel Iblis as a naval commander.

5. Pellaeon has experience ranging through the Clone Wars, Galactic Civil War, and Yuuzhan Vong War. He was also responsible for keeping the Empire alive during the last of these—more notable is the fact that the invasion corridor for the Vong was directly on the border to the empire.

6. Bel Iblis was considered a tactical genius—as well as the New Republics best hope in defeating Thrawn. He also led one of the most successful Rebel cells during the Galactic Civil War. Even better he won’t be hampered by politics and can do what he pleases.

7. Supreme Commander is a title that holds just as much political meaning as military. This applies to Grievous and Pellaeon. In many ways a Supreme Commander is a good officer—although plenty of examples in real history can show just as many incompetent commanders holding such positions—but it does not mean they are the best. Supreme Commanders are often chosen by politics—Pelleaon’s predecessor in the GA was fired because he had no interest in making peace with the Vong, not because he was a bad officer. As well they serve as the public face of their respective faction, as the head military honcho. Grievous provides an excellent example of the perfect visual SC—that skeletal imagery. Bel Iblis on the other hand never held the rank of Supreme Commander due to political reasons despite being a superior tactitian.

8. Grievous has a tendency to rage. It’s in his implants, and will be hard to stop even with someone looking over his shoulder. He didn’t always listen to Dooku—notably when he did have command of the Malevolence—so what’s going to keep him from ignoring Lumiya, on occasion?

9. Grievous likes to run if things get bad. It’s a fact, he’s a coward. If the Malevolence starts to go down, he’s going to run. Even better, the GA commanders know this and could work to exploit it.

10. Grievous shows success when he has surprise on his side, something he does not have here. When he lacks that element his record is a lot less wining.

11. Pellaeon and Bel Iblis worked with/fought against the greatest commander to ever live. Together they could easily pull together a foolproof method for defeating the PH. Add to that another mastermind—Tholme—and the chances for success go up even further.

12. Grievous gets overconfident easily and when that happens things can go wrong for him really fast…i.e. he dies.

13. Grievous lacks experience against his opponents’ vessels. A simple matter of being surprised by the capabilities of the GA Fleets ships could easily make him have to rethink strategy, giving crucial time that the GA fleet can hold out and wreak havoc. Especially in regard to their durability and punch. I mean the Nebulas could hold their own against smaller SSDs, for at least some time. As well there is only so much Lumiya can tell him since she has never led a campaign against these ships.

14. I have come to the conclusion that Grievous is a much better campaign planner than battlefield commander—even then I have my doubts about his overall skill in planning since it is hard to tell how much of the Clone Wars was driven by Sidious.

15. If things do go bad for the GA, Pellaeon is known for saving his fleets for another day—he saved the fleet at Endor from utter destruction via a tactical retreat.

16. I also found this quote:

You are too slow and too late, assassin. More Republic forces have arrived to reinforce the Jedi—and I have already given the order to exit the system. I'm afraid you are on your own."

"Enjoy your retreat, General. It seems to be what you do best."

―Grievous and Asajj Ventress, during the battle at Kadavo

 

 

On Strategies:

 

1. Grievous has a distinct lack of subtlety with his tactics, which can easily be countered by both Bel Iblis and Pellaeon, since experience with Thrawn, experience, and natural talent have left them with the ability to see through complex and multifaceted battle strategies.

2. I do not doubt that Pellaeon and Bel Iblis will use the planets gravity well in some way, either by using a microjump—however difficult that will be without an interdictor—or will jump out and back into system in such a way that they end up on the rear or flank of the PH fleet.

3. The fighter disparity can be dealt with by using the A-wings to guide the tri-fighters into zones where turbolasers can fire indiscriminately into the masses of the PH’s fighters. While not precise it has the potential to do damage to a lot of fighters in quick order. Especially cause they are droids and would not factor in a reckless organic strategy like this. Also due to the swarm tactics that will be deployed and the number disparity being what it is this can be very effective.

4. The TIE Phantoms can take out vulnerable fighters that are emerging from hangars, or bombers holding onto the edge of the ships. Their stealth abilities will allow them to escape detection.

5. The Chimera has a cloaking device. Whilst it is a double-blind one—they can see me ‘cause I can’t see them—timing the usage of it with events in the battle. Such as the introduction of the battle and coming out of nowhere.

6. Early important goals the GA needs is to be: keeping the Malevolence from being able to bring most of its weapons to bear, disabling its engines, or destroying it.

7. If Grievous runs, what’s to stop the GA fleet from using a tractor beam on the Soulless One and bring it in or destroy it?

8. A-wing pilots when faced with certain death would often suicide into enemy capital ships, since the fighter could cause ridiculous amounts of damage to its heat shields. Oh, and that highly exposed bridge on the Malevolence is screaming out to them, just like the Executor’s, and guess who will be on it.

9. Due to the Chimera’s cloaking device, landing or dropping boarding parties will prove difficult. Of course once on board resistance against SpaceOps troops and marines will make taking the ship hard. (Marines have been said to be a part of the basic naval aspect in previous Kaggaths.)

10. The risk of sending multiple boarding parties to varying GA ships spreads the PHs naval forces thin, whilst the GA ships will have standard marine forces potentially augmented by SpaceOps troops.

 

 

 

On Ships:

 

1. The GA fleet has several vessels capable of using cloaking technology, whilst the PH does not giving them a unique advantage in avoiding sensors.

2. A-wings have sensor jammers which will make them hard to target. It will also make it nigh impossible for the tri-fighters to get missile locks, since it affected both detection systems and target locks.

3. TIE Phantoms have stealth capabilities that allow them to only exit stealth when firing, giving them an element of surprise whenever they attack.

4. The PH fleet contains ships that are very delicate, and easy to take out.

5. The PH’s Resucants were known to run into other vessels in the same fleet, damaging allied ships.

6. Resucants were also known to focus on one target until it was destroyed, allowing other ships past with no issue.

7. Nebulas had the capability to “resist” smaller SSDs and similar ships.

8. The GA fleets capital ships are much more durable than those of the PH and can withstand more firepower.

9. TIE bombers carry a payload that is practically unmatched by other bombers. As well to make up for the fact that they lack shields they are highly armored. Empire Strikes Back shows them flying in an asteroid field for goodness sake.

10. A-wings also can serve as good intelligence craft, since they have the ability to scan enemy ships.

11. A-wing pilots had to be good (read the best), due to the sensitive nature of the crafts controls.

12. The escort carriers will serve no purpose once they have cleared their hangers, but if the GA fleet hits before they have they would be prime targets.

13. Jaina’s Stealth-X carries shadow bombs which had the power to tear Yuuzhan Vong corvettes in two. What type of damage could they do here I wonder? I’m pretty sure that they could one-shot a Munificent.

 

 

Miscellaneous:

 

1. One of the flaws that went uncountered in the previous Kaggath was the fact that B2s could be LOS’ed if any are used in boarding parties then such a strategy could easily be used to draw them into traps.

2. Tactical droids—which will be the backbone of the PH’s command structure—were known to question orders, and in some cases kill, commanding officers—which in the case of the Third Battle of Aefeo saw the Separatist saw the tactical droid executing his organic commanding officer, resulting in chaos descending on the fleet . If the battle turns poor for Grievous, he might have to deal with a mutiny.

3. The PH seems to be moving quite a bit of its ground forces for the space battle; even in the case of victory it will lose portions of its land forces. And losing such a portion of his land forces will more than hurt the PH in the engagement to follow—he loses some B2s, Storm Commandos, and Carbonite droids. So core infantry and light vehicles, whilst the GA only loses some SpaceOps troops who would have been all but useless on the ground.

 

 

Something that should be noted when it comes to A-wings ability to Jam Sensors. The opponents are Droid Pilots some of the Fighters are droids themselves. The Fighters that are droids themselves have 1 Major issue, the only way they see is through their sensors. if their Sensors cant pick up the A-wings it bassically renders them blind to those A-wings. That could spell certain doom for those droid ships and may have been something I remembered about the whole Garm or Wedge or who ever it was fighting the droid fleet thing that I really dont remember the exact circumstances of....

Edited October 15, 2014 by tunewalker

[Aurbere]

OK, final arguments have been taken in. I just need to get everything in order and then I'll write up the scenario. Expect it tomorrow (I'm USA Central, so it's pretty late right now).

[Silenceo]

Quick question.

 

Who has/had the Inquisitorious? I remember it being on the taken list and it making me excited due to having Jerec. But now I can't seem to find who has/had it...

 

Step forward one who is unknown!