No more SKILL TREES is crazy

[Max_Killjoy]

Looking at Arsenal Merc, I really do not see changes. There are two passives that deal with "building stacks" that allow for something. One of these abilities was in the old system, one upgrades new active ability. Including this new ability, there are two active abilities that give the target some sort of debuff that you are completely free to ignore, as it only boosts damage of other abilities, and does not require building any stacks outside of your regular rotation.

However, I assume you are also talking about change completely unrelated to Disciplines, which is Supercharged Gas, which requires you to do nothing but using your abilities as usual, and then if you want use ability that provides short lived buff that allows to use certain abilities without cooldown etc.

 

Just so I can visualize better what you were doing, feel free to post your old spec (you can use this http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/mercenary)

 

The irony is that my Arsenal Merc was the one to lose more or be changed more by the new system, when it was fairly straightforward build -- while the Corr/Mad Sorc ended up actually losing almost nothing.

 

Arsenal Merc pre-3.0.

 

 

Good thing the new system gives you everything you could possibly need to maximize your tank, heals, and dps absolutely free for you.

 

Which is great, I guess, if that's the only thing you're after.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[MillionsKNives]

Stop hearing what you want to hear. Who said anything about "hard"?

 

(Other than you, bringing up the classic boogie-man of "skill" so prized by the hardcore endgame and PvP minorities... what's next, a "learn to play" argument to try to belittle anyone who won't agree with you?)

 

You've avoided directly saying it, but you've been saying for months now that you can't be bothered to use any of the complexity of the classes, choosing instead to take passives so that you can instead faceroll your class abilities. It doesn't take much to read between the lines and figure out that any kind of proc, cooldown watching, or rotation is too difficult for you.

 

Why else would someone rile so hard against using something which makes you strictly stronger just because it takes some actual thought? You've admitted that you didn't train the Supercharged Gas, for no other reason than it adding 'needless cooldown watching' (or whatever) to the class.

[Max_Killjoy]

You've avoided directly saying it, but you've been saying for months now that you can't be bothered to use any of the complexity of the classes, choosing instead to take passives so that you can instead faceroll your class abilities. It doesn't take much to read between the lines and figure out that any kind of proc, cooldown watching, or rotation is too difficult for you.

 

Why else would someone rile so hard against using something which makes you strictly stronger just because it takes some actual thought? You've admitted that you didn't train the Supercharged Gas, for no other reason than it adding 'needless cooldown watching' (or whatever) to the class.

 

You're the one fixated on "difficultly". Whack-a-mole rotations aren't difficult, they're just more button-mashing vs less button-mashing. Hell, Bioware even made them glowey and obvious in 3.0.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Aries_cz]

The irony is that my Arsenal Merc was the one to lose more or be changed more by the new system, when it was fairly straightforward build -- while the Corr/Mad Sorc ended up actually losing almost nothing.

 

Arsenal Merc pre-3.0.

 

Ok, if that was your build, I seriously do not see what did you lose with 3.0 changes. Most of the abilities are there in one form or another. Lot of the "+stat" or "pushback immunity" got rolled into regular passive abilities that you can train or are granted upon selection of AC.

 

I tried picking the most similar stuff in Disciplines system - http://dulfy.net/2014/10/13/swtor-disciplines-calculator-swtor_miner/?link=dGEAAAA8AAABFwMGBAgCDxUA, so please tell me what differences you see.

 

Personally, I see lost +accuracy talent, which was basically a mandatory selection anyway, but everybody lost that, and it was supposedly be compensated for by changes in how accuracy rating works (it wasn't, as it did not prove necessary, according to yellow post)

[Max_Killjoy]

Ok, if that was your build, I seriously do not see what did you lose with 3.0 changes. Most of the abilities are there in one form or another. Lot of the "+stat" or "pushback immunity" got rolled into regular passive abilities that you can train or are granted upon selection of AC.

 

I tried picking the most similar stuff in Disciplines system - http://dulfy.net/2014/10/13/swtor-disciplines-calculator-swtor_miner/?link=dGEAAAA8AAABFwMGBAgCDxUA, so please tell me what differences you see.

 

Personally, I see lost +accuracy talent, which was basically a mandatory selection anyway, but everybody lost that, and it was supposedly be compensated for by changes in how accuracy rating works (it wasn't, as it did not prove necessary, according to yellow post)

 

First, there are 8 things that I used to take that are in the Utilities section, meaning that 1 has to be left off.

 

Second, there's actually a 9th Utility that I'd consider, so that's maybe 2 that have to be left off.

 

Third, there's the lvl 16 mandatory, Blazing Barrels, which buffs Sweeping Blasters... um, yay? I'd have avoided that in a heartbeat in the old system, as it's just putting perfume on a pig.

 

Fourth, there's the lvl 44 mandatory, Burst Mode, which wastes a slot on buffing something Mercs never needed and that I'd ditch in a heartbeat if I could.

 

Fifth, never bothered with Target Tracking, which is mandatory at lvl 36 -- although the increased bonus and increased applicability makes it decent now, at least.

[Sarfux]

Actually, the reason why they did the system this way is so they can add more things to the right column in your masteries and then add stuff by level in the left column so content, future level cap raises and/or classes could be easier to balance for the stability of the game without worrying what hybrid they have to keep in mind.

[MillionsKNives]

You're the one fixated on "difficultly". Whack-a-mole rotations aren't difficult, they're just more button-mashing vs less button-mashing. Hell, Bioware even made them glowey and obvious in 3.0.

 

You can't see the difference between choosing specific abilities and utilizing their synergy to achieve the best performance, and just facerolling your abilities?

 

Also, what exactly is button mashing to you, and what would constitute non-button mashing? Are you referring to the need to press a button to activate an ability? The general use of "button mashing" is to refer to someone hitting buttons at random without care of what they are hitting. Essentially a synonym of "face rolling". Using a carefully crafted rotation is not button mashing.

[Aries_cz]

First, there are 8 things that I used to take that are in the Utilities section, meaning that 1 has to be left off.

 

Second, there's actually a 9th Utility that I'd consider, so that's maybe 2 that have to be left off.

 

Third, there's the lvl 16 mandatory, Blazing Barrels, which buffs Sweeping Blasters... um, yay? I'd have avoided that in a heartbeat in the old system, as it's just putting perfume on a pig.

 

Fourth, there's the lvl 44 mandatory, Burst Mode, which wastes a slot on buffing something Mercs never needed and that I'd ditch in a heartbeat if I could.

 

Fifth, never bothered with Target Tracking, which is mandatory at lvl 36 -- although the increased bonus and increased applicability makes it decent now, at least.

1. Which 8? I was pretty sure I got all the utilities you were using in your old build.
   
2. Sooo... you admit that you have more things to choose from now?
   
3. Most of AoE abilities are pretty beastly pigs now, might want to reconsider its usefulness
   
4. It improves new mechanic given to all Mandos, something that was not part of discipline changes
   
5. Improves certain key abilities, pretty major IMO
   

 

Number 3-5 deal with taking things you would not take, but the question remains - what did you lose? As I said, I do not see what utility did you miss

[Aussircaex]

The point about Sweeping Blasters is pretty salient. It demonstrates you're criticizing and dismissing the ability without knowing how it was changed. It's quite beastly now, especially with the utility.

 

If you can't be bothered to understand how this ability was changed before ranting about its uselessness, why should we care about your uninformed opinions about anything else regarding the 3.0 and discipline changes?

[Max_Killjoy]

1. Which 8? I was pretty sure I got all the utilities you were using in your old build.
   
2. Sooo... you admit that you have more things to choose from now?
   
3. Most of AoE abilities are pretty beastly pigs now, might want to reconsider its usefulness
   
4. It improves new mechanic given to all Mandos, something that was not part of discipline changes
   
5. Improves certain key abilities, pretty major IMO
   

 

Number 3-5 deal with taking things you would not take, but the question remains - what did you lose? As I said, I do not see what utility did you miss

 

Improved Vents

Power Barrier

Jet Escape

Custom Enviro Suit

Torque Boosters

Power Shield

Energy Rebounder

Power Overrides

and I'd be tempted to take Infrared Sensors for the Defense buff

 

Instead, with the mandatory linear progression, I'm effectively giving up two of those for the spots wasted on Blazing Barrels and Burst Mode...

[Max_Killjoy]

The point about Sweeping Blasters is pretty salient. It demonstrates you're criticizing and dismissing the ability without knowing how it was changed. It's quite beastly now, especially with the utility.

 

If you can't be bothered to understand how this ability was changed before ranting about its uselessness, why should we care about your uninformed opinions about anything else regarding the 3.0 and discipline changes?

 

Hey, look, it's L2Plolnoob... I wondered when that canard would show in full force.

 

Frankly, I don't care if it's "beastly" , with or without spending a Utility on it. (Might help me give a damn about it if the character didn't turn around and fire at the ground away from the targets half the time.)

 

 

You can't see the difference between choosing specific abilities and utilizing their synergy to achieve the best performance, and just facerolling your abilities?

 

Also, what exactly is button mashing to you, and what would constitute non-button mashing? Are you referring to the need to press a button to activate an ability? The general use of "button mashing" is to refer to someone hitting buttons at random without care of what they are hitting. Essentially a synonym of "face rolling". Using a carefully crafted rotation is not button mashing.

 

More buttons is more buttons. "Yay, my build is better, I get to hit more buttons!"

 

And spare us the business-major buzzwords. "Utilizing synergy to achieve the best performance..." you sound like the idiot we hired in accounting last year.

 

 

E: and if it seems like I've stopped putting any real give a damn into this thread, it's true -- right around the time we got the completely expected move to this "Oh, you don't agree with me, you must be a no-skill face-rolling hack" fallback posturing from the usual suspects.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Aries_cz]

Improved Vents

Power Barrier

Jet Escape

Custom Enviro Suit

Torque Boosters

Power Shield - the one I missed

Energy Rebounder

Power Overrides

and I'd be tempted to take Infrared Sensors for the Defense buff

 

Instead, with the mandatory linear progression, I'm effectively giving up two of those for the spots wasted on Blazing Barrels and Burst Mode...

 

Your old build (if what you linked was your old build) did not have Power Shield as well, and would be impossible to reach, as it was a tier 3 Bodyguard talent for quite some time now.

 

You are also assuming that if the system was not changed that you could still take the same abilities. Assuming they would go with the old system, there would surely be a remixing of talent placement, new filler talents, etc. Meaning you would have to sacrifice something else, like the capstone ability, to get these.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Aries_cz

[MillionsKNives]

More buttons is more buttons. "Yay, my build is better, I get to hit more buttons!"

 

Rotations are hard, me no like thinking.

 

And spare us the business-major buzzwords. "Utilizing synergy to achieve the best performance..." you sound like the idiot we hired in accounting last year.

 

I could dumb it down for you if you'd like. Using abilities more smarter make you more better. Using abilities like stupid make you bad.

 

E: and if it seems like I've stopped putting any real give a damn into this thread, it's true -- right around the time we got the completely expected move to this "Oh, you don't agree with me, you must be a no-skill face-rolling hack" fallback posturing from the usual suspects.

 

Let's be real, you never had a good argument to begin with. It's all "me me me why can't I suck, I hate you BioWare! I want my bad spec back".

[Aries_cz]

Hey, look, it's L2Plolnoob... I wondered when that canard would show in full force.

 

Frankly, I don't care if it's "beastly" , with or without spending a Utility on it. (Might help me give a damn about it if the character didn't turn around and fire at the ground away from the targets half the time.)

 

Abilities get changed a lot. If you refuse an ability without even trying it (you should, I even throw it around on my Healer Commando time to time when clearing mobs), you arguing that having it upgraded is stupid loses a lot of weight.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Aries_cz

[Max_Killjoy]

Your old build (if what you linked was your old build) did not have Power Shield as well, and would be impossible to reach, as it was a tier 3 Bodyguard talent for quite some time now.

 

You are also assuming that if the system was not changed that you could still take the same abilities. Assuming they would go with the old system, there would surely be a remixing of talent placement, new filler talents, etc. Meaning you would have to sacrifice something else, like the capstone ability, to get these.

 

I know I had Power Shield at some point, but you're right about it not being available on that build leading up to 3.0 -- however, I'd still certainly take it now over either of the two "inline" skills I've mentioned being stuck with now, along with anything on that list.

 

Abilities get changed a lot. If you refuse an ability without even trying it (you should, I even throw it around on my Healer Commando time to time when clearing mobs), you arguing that having it upgraded is stupid loses a lot of weight.

 

It kinda sits there off to the side and gets used once or twice a day for finishing off trash during cash runs on older daily worlds. Spending a mandatory slot and then maybe a utility slot on buffing it... pointless.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Max_Killjoy]

Rotations are hard, me no like thinking.

 

I could dumb it down for you if you'd like. Using abilities more smarter make you more better. Using abilities like stupid make you bad.

 

Let's be real, you never had a good argument to begin with. It's all "me me me why can't I suck, I hate you BioWare! I want my bad spec back".

 

Every time you and your ilk fall back on this ad hominem flailing, it exposes the vapid hollowness of your "argument".

Edited January 3, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Zoom_VI]

Every time you and your ilk fall back on this ad hominem flailing, it exposes the vapid hollowness of your "argument".

 

Your argument is no better, just because you want everything to be simple, doesn't mean we all want everything to be simple. I for one like a bit of involvement in my rotation.

 

You keep applying your personal preferences as if they are somehow universal constants, which they are not.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Zoom_VI

[MillionsKNives]

fall back on

 

This is where you fail. We present you with real arguments. You ignore them and instead cherry pick something else, or just ignore it altogether. You present no counter argument and instead just parrot the same things over and over as though if you say it enough it will become true.

 

The ad hominem is for fun because it's not like you're saying anything of worth anyway.

[Aries_cz]

I know I had Power Shield at some point, but you're right about it not being available on that build leading up to 3.0 -- however, I'd still certainly take it now over either of the two "inline" skills I've mentioned being stuck with now, along with anything on that list.

 

Yes, Power shield used to be tier 2 Bodyguard talent, but it has been move to tier 3 at least as of 2.7 (old guide from Dulfy's site - http://dulfy.net/2014/01/02/swtor-arsenal-and-pyrotech-mercenary-dps-class-guide/ , I am too lazy to go through patch notes and look when exactly it got changed)

As I said, you are assuming that it would be possible to take Power Shield if the old system was retained. There is no guarantee that would be the case.

If anything, Disciplines allow you to pick it now, instead of some other rather useless (for Arsenal Merc) utility (for example, Jet Boost is not very utilized, and Tenacity is mainly a PvP thing, so why pick it).

[Max_Killjoy]

This is where you fail. We present you with real arguments. You ignore them and instead cherry pick something else, or just ignore it altogether. You present no counter argument and instead just parrot the same things over and over as though if you say it enough it will become true.

 

The ad hominem is for fun because it's not like you're saying anything of worth anyway.

 

Your entire "argument" has come down to "Only my tastes count" from the beginning, moving on to "and you're an idiot for not sharing them" when it's made clear not everyone does.

[Max_Killjoy]

Your argument is no better, just because you want everything to be simple, doesn't mean we all want everything to be simple. I for one like a bit of involvement in my rotation.

 

You keep applying your personal preferences as if they are somehow universal constants, which they are not.

 

Where? I keep talking about choice, and why *I* don't like something and would like other options.

 

The other side in this "discussion" keeps saying "You shouldn't have choice, you only need what we'd choose, and your criteria and priorities are stupid."

 

It's all at the same level of "simple", having more buttons to mash or more tickers to watch doesn't make it "more skilled" or "better" -- there are no auto-attacks, every attack and most other powers are activated manually, it's just a matter of which powers you'd chose to have on your build and which you wouldn't, based on your own personal criteria.

[MillionsKNives]

Your entire "argument" has come down to "Only my tastes count" from the beginning, moving on to "and you're an idiot for not sharing them" when it's made clear not everyone does.

 

You are certainly welcome to your own tastes, but in the scheme of things Hybrids did more harm than good, and if that turns away a small amount of players to fix that issue then I think it's worth the price. What I really don't understand is why you can't get over it, and continue to post about it. They're not going back to the old way and you haven't even provided a better alternative yourself. Move on.

[Max_Killjoy]

Yes, Power shield used to be tier 2 Bodyguard talent, but it has been move to tier 3 at least as of 2.7 (old guide from Dulfy's site - http://dulfy.net/2014/01/02/swtor-arsenal-and-pyrotech-mercenary-dps-class-guide/ , I am too lazy to go through patch notes and look when exactly it got changed)

As I said, you are assuming that it would be possible to take Power Shield if the old system was retained. There is no guarantee that would be the case.

If anything, Disciplines allow you to pick it now, instead of some other rather useless (for Arsenal Merc) utility (for example, Jet Boost is not very utilized, and Tenacity is mainly a PvP thing, so why pick it).

 

I'm not asking you to go dig it up, you've already done more digging than I'd expect for one of these discussions.

 

I'm not really asking for the old system to have been retained, either -- just pointing out that the notion that the old system "had no choice" is only true under the assumption that there's a single valid criteria by which to judge a build, and trying to get across that whatever replaced it didn't need to be so heavily weighted in the "here's your build enjoy" direction.

 

As for Jet Boost, I use it more than I use Sweeping Blasters, given that it's an interrupt and throws off melee mobs, even most golds. I have yet to see the supposed "knockback" on the new Sweeping Blasters actually do much when I've used it.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Where? I keep talking about choice, and why *I* don't like something and would like other options.

 

The other side in this "discussion" keeps saying "You shouldn't have choice, you only need what we'd choose, and your criteria and priorities are stupid."

 

It's all at the same level of "simple", having more buttons to mash or more tickers to watch doesn't make it "more skilled" or "better" -- there are no auto-attacks, every attack and most other powers are activated manually, it's just a matter of which powers you'd chose to have on your build and which you wouldn't, based on your own personal criteria.

 

Look, as imstated in a previous post, I was major upset at the change as well. But this all falls under learn what you canchange, and accept what you cant. They are not going back to the old skill tree. You can argue about it until your blue in the face, or just accept it, and learn to move on. Yes the new disciplines are dumbed down, but after playing for a few weeks, tnere really isnt THAT much of a difference as to make it game breaking.

[Aries_cz]

I'm not asking you to go dig it up, you've already done more digging than I'd expect for one of these discussions.

 

I'm not really asking for the old system to have been retained, either -- just pointing out that the notion that the old system "had no choice" is only true under the assumption that there's a single valid criteria by which to judge a build, and trying to get across that whatever replaced it didn't need to be so heavily weighted in the "here's your build enjoy" direction.

 

As for Jet Boost, I use it more than I use Sweeping Blasters, given that it's an interrupt and throws off melee mobs, even most golds. I have yet to see the supposed "knockback" on the new Sweeping Blasters actually do much when I've used it.

 

Well, I think that I have more than proved that you did not lose anything, and that your choice options are even wider now.