Please introduce dual spec ASAP

[Basiliscus]

'From Stephen Reid

 

Q: do you think that alternative specs will be allowed at some stage in the future? Also, legacy system, any further insight you are willing to share with us at this point in time?

 

Dual specs could well come at some point in the future - it's been discussed for sure.

 

But they have not yet deceided about if the game will actually have Dual specc as of yet

 

to be fair he didnt confirm ANYTHING during that interview other than some things are being looked at, maybe with the exception of guild banks. They are using the approach, dont confirm anything until its 100%.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Basiliscus

[Truga]

If fights are creative, unique and challenging like we all would hope they would be, then your group of 8/ 16 guildies that are running that content are going to hit a wall. Sniper may not be the best option for situations, maybe due to fight mechanics. Maybe there's a fight in which I need as much AOE as I can pump out at once. Okay. I'm now Engineering rather than MM.

 

Fights will not require same exact setup 100% of the time. And I'd hope that holds true or there is a serious lack of development and creativity on the designers part.

 

Yes, let's not encourage people to play their spec creatively, let's instead let them respec to a cookie cutter build for every situation. Then, let's create content that forces people to do just that. And if they don't we blame the developer for having "a lack of creativity".

 

It takes a whole lot more creativity to design content that can be handled with all kinds of classes in numerous kinds of ways than it takes to design content doable only in a single way with a single way of playing the game.

 

Way to prove everyone's point of why they're against this.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Truga

[Basiliscus]

Exactly, there won't be. And for me that's a bad thing.

 

Just because you have the choice and option to do something doesn't mean you should do it.

 

Sometimes it's best not to let something happen not because in itself it's wrong but because it leads to bad things. if duel speccing is allowed in a very easy manner then what's to stop people from demanding(which is what people are doing for duel spec now) AC changes.

 

Granted it's entirely my opinion that AC changing is bad. But I have a feeling that's biowares standpoint too. I may be wrong....but I doubt it.

 

Again this is a slippery slope argument, but what's to stop this from happening?

 

well the 1 logical argument I could make against swapping AC, I guess is that it would be disproportionately unfair to 1 class, the jedi knights/sith warriors by a fairly large margin, due to armor class changes.

[Basiliscus]

Yes, let's not encourage people to play their spec creatively, let's instead let them respec to a cookie cutter build for every situation. Then, let's create content that forces people to do just that. And if they don't we blame the developer for having "a lack of creativity".

 

It takes a whole lot more creativity to design content that can be handled with all kinds of classes in numerous kinds of ways than it takes to design content doable only in a single way with a single way of playing the game.

 

Way to prove everyone's point of why they're against this.

 

they are already going to have cookie cutter specs, its not that hard to figure out what talents will give you a dps/survival boost.

 

I dont think even WoW had content that made use of the dual spec feature. Dont think rift did either.

[RollingDeep]

I'm starting to get annoyed with some of the people arguing on the side of "Dual Spec is Bad", who keep using fallacies in their arguments. Particularly the somewhat ridiculous over use of Slippery Slope.

 

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/slipslop.html

 

Allowing dual spec will not somehow lead to implementation of dual AC, or dual class, everything becoming free, and then eventually a big red "I Win" button that insta-changes your character to level 50 and kills all world bosses. That's using a logical fallacy to make an argument, and it's... stupid. Stop doing it please.

 

Sounds like u didn't read my original post. And I absolutely acknowledged it is a slipper slope. I asked you what's going to prevent it from happening. One door opens another and all that jazz.

 

More importantly I like how you imparticularly LOVE to point out all of the logical fallacies in other's posts butbfail to acknowledge the ones in your own.

 

But even more importantly I wonder if anyone will ever realize that all of these arguments are based on opinion.

 

P.S. Is there ever an argument that doesn't have some level or some type of a logical fallacy? Nitpicking any argument, I'm sure you could find anything if you look hard enough.

[Godsfear]

You would quit the game over dual speccing being implemented or not?

 

err ok

 

Each to their own...never good to hear anyone quit a game I'm active in but to be honest no company can combat the "do this now or I quit" brigade.

 

Have fun in your next game because I dont envisage dual speccing being implemented within your gratious 8 week timeframe, if at all

 

Driz

 

I played WARHAMMER for 1.5 years hoping and waiting for a magic patch that fixed the game. It never came and I see the same future for this game. They just have too many problems right out the door.

 

I'm not going to practice self deception hoping the game has good leadership when it's really clear now the leadership is not good. When you look at the core decision making that went into the design of this game there are glaring issues staring back at you.

 

If they could implement chat bubbles they would have if it wasn't for the fact that chat bubbles break this games engine causing too man bugs. This is a heavily modified Hero's engine. They should have just built the engine from the ground up.

 

It's just too easy to be the guy hoping that the company and game they like ever fix themselves. Every mmo that has come out with this many issues has slowly died a quiet death.

 

Like Stephen Reid said in the Reddit post. They are working on the UI now before allowing modding. Are these people retarded? The ui should have been hashed out 6 months ago. If I was them I would get modding out the door pronto knowing how much bad UI's irritate good players. It's these decisions that really show you how poorly ran these large Corps. are ran.

[Truga]

they are already going to have cookie cutter specs, its not that hard to figure out what talents will give you a dps/survival boost.

 

I dont think even WoW had content that made use of the dual spec feature. Dont think rift did either.

 

I know they didn't but that poster said they should do just that. I hope the Force doesn't let that come true, but you never know. For some reason, developers tend to often listen to only the dumbest idea of the bunch.

 

I personally am not strictly against dual spec, if it's fairly limited:

Only in a safe area (i.e. towns, fleet, etc), and only if you have no instances active. That way you ensure people can't abuse it to swap mid-flashpoint or other such bull.

 

As for cookie cutter specs, they'll always be there, some synergies just stack better. I said it in another thread, but the game that gets character customization right (several options, all more or less equally good, with only different playstyles, as long as you don't randomly choose things), I will play it forever.

[Godsfear]

they are already going to have cookie cutter specs, its not that hard to figure out what talents will give you a dps/survival boost.

 

I dont think even WoW had content that made use of the dual spec feature. Dont think rift did either.

 

QFT. there was nothing in RIFT that required particular specs.

 

There were 3 healing trees and I could heal a instance with any combo of the 3.

 

3 tanking trees and I could use any combo I want plus some tanks used a little bit of dps trees thrown in.

 

These people know nothing. Dual speccing is fun and necessary to let people enjoy the meta game of pvp.

[ImperialSun]

I played WARHAMMER for 1.5 years hoping and waiting for a magic patch that fixed the game. It never came and I see the same future for this game. They just have too many problems right out the door.

 

I'm not going to practice self deception hoping the game has good leadership when it's really clear now the leadership is not good. When you look at the core decision making that went into the design of this game there are glaring issues staring back at you.

 

If they could implement chat bubbles they would have if it wasn't for the fact that chat bubbles break this games engine causing too man bugs. This is a heavily modified Hero's engine. They should have just built the engine from the ground up.

 

It's just too easy to be the guy hoping that the company and game they like ever fix themselves. Every mmo that has come out with this many issues has slowly died a quiet death.

 

Like Stephen Reid said in the Reddit post. They are working on the UI now before allowing modding. Are these people retarded? The ui should have been hashed out 6 months ago. If I was them I would get modding out the door pronto knowing how much bad UI's irritate good players. It's these decisions that really show you how poorly ran these large Corps. are ran.

 

I agree with a lot of your post, I played WAR for about 2.5 years and I could not live in that game wihout my addons...this game really does need a scaleable/customizable UI with full addon support and you are right, this should have been in the launch build.

 

But dual speccing is definitely not something that should appear by default in every MMORPG imo and it certainly isnt something worth quitting a game over imo.

 

Likewise if BW do not implement dual speccing I do not believe the game will bleed subs.

 

Driz

[Xzulld]

I dont think even WoW had content that made use of the dual spec feature

Are you kidding me?

 

I run a raid guild in wow, I ask someone to switch specs almost every night. New dragon soul bosses, some require 2 tanks, some 1. However dps requirements are strict at times . . . ie, respec to deeps and we win, no respec and I have to sub that player out.

 

Alysrazor fight in firelands, on my mage, I can more than triple my dps as fire spec, but that is only that one fight while flying . . . ie the content DOES encourage respecs often.

 

This game is really no different, its comes in when the content is tightly tuned and granted we are only a ~week out from retail launch.

 

In time this will be a bigger problem.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Xzulld

[Truga]

Likewise if BW do not implement dual speccing I do not believe the game will bleed subs.

 

I think this goes both ways TBH. Either way they go with this, I can say I'll probably keep playing for a while.

[Basiliscus]

 

I personally am not strictly against dual spec, if it's fairly limited:

Only in a safe area (i.e. towns, fleet, etc), and only if you have no instances active. That way you ensure people can't abuse it to swap mid-flashpoint or other such bull.

 

 

I dont see swapping specs mid instance as a big deal. Tank or healer drops? Maybe one of the other members can fill that role so you could look for a dps rather than a tank/healer. I guarantee you wouldnt have to look as long.

[Truga]

I dont see swapping specs mid instance as a big deal. Tank or healer drops? Maybe one of the other members can fill that role so you could look for a dps rather than a tank/healer. I guarantee you wouldnt have to look as long.

 

Read Xzulld's post. It's people like that I have a gripe with

[ImperialSun]

Read Xzulld's post. It's people like that I have a gripe with

 

Have to agree on this, I could compromise on most aspects of dual speccing, but being able to switch instantly whilst in a instance or in combat is where I draw the line.

 

Driz

[Hashasin]

Learn from rift they had the best role system out there. Could have up to 5 roles and respecs were cheap. It was really fun to try every spec the game had to offer without lvling 5 or 6 alts

[Dean_Corso]

I for one think this should not be added. Just my 2 cents..

 

I don't want everything just given to people. If you want a healer make one!

 

As for respecs there's a reason for the cost associated with it..... Make your choices wisely or wait for the price to drop each week.

 

Nice and easy.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Dean_Corso

[Dean_Corso]

Are you kidding me?

 

I run a raid guild in wow, I ask someone to switch specs almost every night. New dragon soul bosses, some require 2 tanks, some 1. However dps requirements are strict at times . . . ie, respec to deeps and we win, no respec and I have to sub that player out.

 

Alysrazor fight in firelands, on my mage, I can more than triple my dps as fire spec, but that is only that one fight while flying . . . ie the content DOES encourage respecs often.

 

This game is really no different, its comes in when the content is tightly tuned and granted we are only a ~week out from retail launch.

 

In time this will be a bigger problem.

 

This is just another reason i hate WoW. If you want WoW go play it and stop trying to ruin the great game we have here.

[Dean_Corso]

The they should also be prepared to bleed a lot of subs. But according to most of the fanbois they're alright with that.

 

This game is going to lose half it's subs within 3 months if BW doesn't get some quality of life changes in the game ASAP.

 

I've been through enough launches to know when a game is in trouble. The forums are only going to get worse as more people hit endgame and realize how buggy and unfinished this game really is.

 

But, like I said, if the fanbois don't mind the game shrinking to RIFT like numbers then there is not problem at all for them.

 

Personally I would just as soon wait for GW2 than "hope" for dual speccing longer than 2 months tops.

 

OMG the sky is falling!!!!! Go to GW2, it won't be done in 2 months.....

[Basiliscus]

Read Xzulld's post. It's people like that I have a gripe with

 

thing is, that kind of thing already happened before dual specs were introduced. Some fights were more healer heavy, raid leaders asked dps to step out while they brought in another healer. That dps then did not participate in the fight, or get any chance at loot.

 

Some fights required more tanks, others only 1.

 

I think allowing everyone who walked into a raid to complete and be useful every part isnt exactly a bad thing.

[origosis]

Slippery slope arguments are silly. It has been stated numerous times that AC are actually classes, they just have the first 10 levels identical. Many MMOs did this before, and I personally like this kind of "job transfer" system. There's no way bioware is going to allow changing classes.

 

Nothing is set in stone.. Even if BW comes out and says "We will never change X" I will see it as being very unlikely, but still possible that it could happen.

[kayahan]

Page 89th'd.

 

You can't PVP with a PVE spec and vice versa. The talents in the skill trees aren't as specialized for one over the other as some other games but there will be min masses that only PVP with PVP specs and respec for the reverse. 90+% of your users will never stoop to doing this but will revile those that do. And eventually most of that 90% will frustration quit.

 

From a fellow MMO designer: you gain nothing from restricting player choice. Only the ardent will overcome the problem(two chars) everyone else will *****. And it's not like it's difficult to implement. It's a 2 for maybe three scrum teams? Or whatever you do. But it's still about a week of work. Plus a week or two of QA iteration. Inexpensive for, IMO, a TON of extra retention.

 

Really digging your game, hope you listen to player feedback!

 

Ps: please add a feedback button. You've no idea how well it's helped other MMO's.

[Nicain]

Its not that hard to find people who want to play healers. No need to blur the line between classes more than there already is. Companions kind of make this less of a factor.

 

In my guild we have a couple of dedicated healers who want to be healers, I suggest you find some and actually get some social points. The calss structure is fine the way it is.

[savagepotato]

Player feedback and listening to it is a dangerous game. Some of it is good but a lot of it is just "hey you need to make your game into world of warcraft"

 

Still I would most likely be okay with dual spec.

 

 

Page 89th'd.

 

You can't PVP with a PVE spec and vice versa. The talents in the skill trees aren't as specialized for one over the other as some other games but there will be min masses that only PVP with PVP specs and respec for the reverse. 90+% of your users will never stoop to doing this but will revile those that do. And eventually most of that 90% will frustration quit.

 

From a fellow MMO designer: you gain nothing from restricting player choice. Only the ardent will overcome the problem(two chars) everyone else will *****. And it's not like it's difficult to implement. It's a 2 for maybe three scrum teams? Or whatever you do. But it's still about a week of work. Plus a week or two of QA iteration. Inexpensive for, IMO, a TON of extra retention.

 

Really digging your game, hope you listen to player feedback!

 

Ps: please add a feedback button. You've no idea how well it's helped other MMO's.

[Xzulld]

This is just another reason i hate WoW. If you want WoW go play it and stop trying to ruin the great game we have here.

 

Its not about wow or not wow. Its about talents which benefit different scenarios, and tightly tuned encounters.

 

Both of which this game share with wow.

 

ie, your post is nonsense.

 

If you have tightly tuned encounters, and talents that increase a given roles ability, you will have a need to place the correct spec in the correct quantities for each encounter.

 

Its a rule of the game environment, not the specific game. Wow and SWTOR share environments in the sense that they both have talent trees, they both have boss encounters which can include 1 or more tanks, and 1 or more healers for a given fight, but not necessarily the next boss in the instance.

 

All such environments require a balance of damage output, as it meets healer longevity and boss mechanics. This balance is what is meant by encounter tuning, and meeting those requirements is what I do as a raid leader. Its like a mechanic, you don't hate a given method, it just is what it is to achieve the goal of success. If you cant bring down a given boss then why even try? If you can by subbing someone out, then why not? If you could tweak the game to not need to sub that person out, then why not?

Edited December 29, 2011 by Xzulld

[Basiliscus]

Its not that hard to find people who want to play healers. No need to blur the line between classes more than there already is. Companions kind of make this less of a factor.

 

In my guild we have a couple of dedicated healers who want to be healers, I suggest you find some and actually get some social points. The calss structure is fine the way it is.

 

of course it isnt for me, I'm a healer