Bioware: Is Crafting to Win™ intended?

[ParagonAX]

Besides, you can craft useful things like Universal Prefabs to get Conquest Points. In fact, those things give better points than the War Supplies for at least some of the conquests! And since I like credits and for some unfathomable reason I even like furnishing my Strongholds, yeah, I like that, too.

 

The ONLY week where prefabs count towards conquest, is during Trade Emporium. Which is perfectly fine. Because that is a crafting week.

 

During any other week, only War Supplies / Invasion Forces count. And yet, as mentioned again and again and again, conquest crafting rules supreme as the best method of gaining points no matter what the week.

 

Hence,

As it stands, the ONLY REASON to craft for conquest is for conquest points.

 

In contrast, all of the other activities you’ve listed have fun factors in them. People enjoy doing them even without the need for conquest. Plus they give conquest points.

 

My point still stands perfectly.

 

Do people like conquest crafting? I can speak from personal experience: Yes. I like to log in to my crafters and watch my guild's point total jump by half a million points on the next refresh over at http://www.swtorconquest.com/ . Others in my guild feel exactly the same way.

 

Thanks for proving my point yet again, and for disclosing your true motivation.

[DarthTHC]

The ONLY week where prefabs count towards conquest, is during Trade Emporium. Which is perfectly fine. Because that is a crafting week.

 

During any other week, only War Supplies / Invasion Forces count. And yet, as mentioned again and again and again, conquest crafting rules supreme as the best method of gaining points no matter what the week.

 

Hence,

 

My point still stands perfectly.

 

Thanks for proving my point yet again, and for disclosing your true motivation.

 

My motivation to do what? All I've done so far is debunk the farcical assertion that people are dropping hundreds to thousands of dollars every week to win conquest.

 

And I assure you my motivation to do that is purely for my own entertainment.

[Rambeezy]

Remember, Triumph won their conquest battle last week but they are promoting change to the system that helped them achieve victory. I guess Thorstein Veblen was right when he said "a society is more likely to rebel when things get better, not when it is already oppressed." Edited October 1, 2014 by Rambeezy

[ParagonAX]

My motivation to do what? All I've done so far is debunk the farcical assertion that people are dropping hundreds to thousands of dollars every week to win conquest.

 

And I assure you my motivation to do that is purely for my own entertainment.

 

Your motivation to keep conquest crafting as is in order keep gaming the broken system.

 

Comon man, connect the dots. You are smarter than that.

 

Fix what, exactly? You could do the same thing they did. It's not "broken" because some guilds are capable of planning and executing better or faster than you've chosen to.

[DarthTHC]

Your motivation to keep conquest crafting as is in order keep gaming the broken system.

 

Comon man, connect the dots. You are smarter than that.

 

You misunderstand that second post you quoted then.

 

That post means that the rules apply equally to everyone. If someone chooses to play one way (within the rules) and by doing so places himself at a disadvantage to someone who plays another way (yet still within the rules), that isn't necessarily an indication that the rules are broken. It's an indication that someone made a bad decision if their goal was to win.

 

A different example of this is that any pro football team could choose to field 10 or 9 players instead of 11. They'd be dumb for doing it, but that doesn't mean that the rule that allows them 11 on the field is a bad one. Alternatively, they could dress 50 players instead of 54. Same deal.

 

People should take personal accountability for their own education, actions, decisions, and inactions and not complain when their behavior produces predictable results. I know that "personal accountability" a horrifying concept on the Internet these days, but it's a brilliant way to live.

 

I have taken no position on the crafting = points issue. I'm still reading and evaluating.

Edited October 1, 2014 by DarthTHC

[curulz]

Remember, Triumph won their conquest battle last week but they are promoting change to the system that helped them achieve victory. I guess Thorstein Veblen was right when he said "a society is more likely to rebel when things get better, not when it is already oppressed."

 

Because Triumph doesn't want to have to repeat the same things that brought them the win. And they don't want anyone else to be able to be able to beat them via crafting. I don't believe there is any other motive.

 

Is crafting too OP? Does there need to be balance? Create a level playing field? All good debates, but don't pretend it's some noble cause that they're suggesting a change to crafting.

[Jadescythe]

Do you know people who drop that ingame to win conquest?

 

I'll drop $5k on a guitar, clearly a luxury item since I am far from a professional guitarist, but I've spent zero on Cartel Coins. The willingness to drop money on one luxury item does not indicate a willingness to spend the same or even less on a completely different luxury item.

 

You are using your own beliefs as a basis for your argument. Personally I don't spend money on CC either, but that doesn't mean someone else wouldn't. To many players, this is their entertainment. They don't have a tailgate, they don't play an instrument, they don't go to the movies. Their disposable income is spent on getting new games, equipment to play those games, and with the new craze, in-game transactions for cosmetic crap.

 

Your opinion on how people should spend their money has no impact on what is actual happening. You keep claiming "$500", but it only takes $35 to get a couple hundred thousand points minimum. If you have a couple people in guild do that, you just picked up an extra couple million points. Which isn't even possible via any method other than crafting and even then you'd have to have stockpiled mats/credits forever to keep up with what CM items could net you in a day.

[Rambeezy]

You misunderstand that second post you quoted then.

 

That post means that the rules apply equally to everyone. If someone chooses to play one way (within the rules) and by doing so places himself at a disadvantage to someone who plays another way (yet still within the rules), that isn't necessarily an indication that the rules are broken. It's an indication that someone made a bad decision if their goal was to win.

 

A different example of this is that any pro football team could choose to field 10 or 9 players instead of 11. They'd be dumb for doing it, but that doesn't mean that the rule that allows them 11 on the field is a bad one. Alternatively, they could dress 50 players instead of 54. Same deal.

 

People should take personal accountability for their own education, actions, decisions, and inactions and not complain when their behavior produces predictable results. I know that "personal accountability" a horrifying concept on the Internet these days, but it's a brilliant way to live.

 

I have taken no position on the crafting = points issue. I'm still reading and evaluating.

 

Dont forget that NiM operations get almost zero conquest points. So please, factor in effort/accomplishment and tell me that the system is not broken.

[DarthTHC]

Because Triumph doesn't want to have to repeat the same things that brought them the win. And they don't want anyone else to be able to be able to beat them via crafting. I don't believe there is any other motive.

 

Is crafting too OP? Does there need to be balance? Create a level playing field? All good debates, but don't pretend it's some noble cause that they're suggesting a change to crafting.

 

The one thing I do know is that completely eliminating crafting from Conquests would shift the balance of power decidedly in favor of the larger (that is, more unique player) guilds. So would capping conquest points earned via crafting if you did not also cap conquest points earned via other means.

 

I'm unfamiliar with Triumph. Do they have a lot of players who very actively participate in the other aspects of the game that grant conquest points - flash points, operations, war zones, and GSF? Like, a whole lot more than most of the other guilds on the same server?

[Large_Signature]

The one thing I do know is that completely eliminating crafting from Conquests would shift the balance of power decidedly in favor of the larger (that is, more unique player) guilds. So would capping conquest points earned via crafting if you did not also cap conquest points earned via other means.

 

I'm unfamiliar with Triumph. Do they have a lot of players who very actively participate in the other aspects of the game that grant conquest points - flash points, operations, war zones, and GSF? Like, a whole lot more than most of the other guilds on the same server?

 

Nobody is asking for crafting to be removed from conquest, it just needs balancing.

 

And yes, Triumph™ has a lot of active members in many aspects of the game, cept gsf (who even plays that crap anymore)

[DarthTHC]

Dont forget that NiM operations get almost zero conquest points. So please, factor in effort/accomplishment and tell me that the system is not broken.

 

The rules apply equally to all, right? There is nothing preventing anyone from sending companions out crafting while they're in the operation, right?

 

In order for the system to be broken, wouldn't it would have to produce a distinct advantage to one group over another, whose differentiation criteria was something other than "personal preference"?

[DarthTHC]

Nobody is asking for crafting to be removed from conquest, it just needs balancing.

 

And yes, Triumph™ has a lot of active members in many aspects of the game, cept gsf (who even plays that crap anymore)

 

If that's the case, couldn't it be argued that advocating for limitations on crafting points applied to guild conquest would give Triumph a distinct advantage over smaller / less active guilds?

[Rambeezy]

Because Triumph doesn't want to have to repeat the same things that brought them the win. And they don't want anyone else to be able to be able to beat them via crafting. I don't believe there is any other motive.

 

Is crafting too OP? Does there need to be balance? Create a level playing field? All good debates, but don't pretend it's some noble cause that they're suggesting a change to crafting.

 

They are asking for what gave them victory to be changed....whats more noble than that. Blowing smoke about their motives isn't gonna convince most people now days. We all are part of a generation dominated by political gain. So in other words we see through most peoples bullsht. The basic level of understand in regards to what Triumph did is worded in my first sentence of this post.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Rambeezy

[DarthTHC]

You are using your own beliefs as a basis for your argument. Personally I don't spend money on CC either, but that doesn't mean someone else wouldn't. To many players, this is their entertainment. They don't have a tailgate, they don't play an instrument, they don't go to the movies. Their disposable income is spent on getting new games, equipment to play those games, and with the new craze, in-game transactions for cosmetic crap.

 

Your opinion on how people should spend their money has no impact on what is actual happening. You keep claiming "$500", but it only takes $35 to get a couple hundred thousand points minimum. If you have a couple people in guild do that, you just picked up an extra couple million points. Which isn't even possible via any method other than crafting and even then you'd have to have stockpiled mats/credits forever to keep up with what CM items could net you in a day.

 

I've been pretty consistent in saying some might do it at that level. I have yet to be convinced that it's anywhere near as widespread as the apparent P2W fearmongers among us would like us to believe.

[Zoom_VI]

They are asking for what gave them victory to be changed....whats more noble than that.

 

They are asking for it to be changed because they no longer wish to use that method, and do not what others to use it against them, not because of some noble cause.

[Large_Signature]

Because Triumph doesn't want to have to repeat the same things that brought them the win. And they don't want anyone else to be able to be able to beat them via crafting. I don't believe there is any other motive.

 

Is crafting too OP? Does there need to be balance? Create a level playing field? All good debates, but don't pretend it's some noble cause that they're suggesting a change to crafting.

 

Again, we brought the issue up before we ever had any competition on a planet

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=763243&highlight=Conquest+crafting

 

we will do our hardest to win whatever the circumstances, none of this takes any validity away from the fact that crafting is overpowered.

[JasonNH]

I have taken no position on the crafting = points issue. I'm still reading and evaluating.

 

That's actually why I decided to post in this thread as opposed to any number of other ones. I genuinely expect that Bioware has thought about this longer and more comprehensively than I have, and I would like to know their strategy behind the lopsided potential output of crafting versus other conquest activities. Perhaps they simply didn't expect people to maintain the supplies this long, or they did, but still expect it to wane considerably in the future. Or perhaps they just plain like it this way for other reasons I haven't considered. I don't know, but I'd like to hear their side of the analysis thus far.

[TUXs]

The rules apply equally to all, right? There is nothing preventing anyone from sending companions out crafting while they're in the operation, right?

 

In order for the system to be broken, wouldn't it would have to produce a distinct advantage to one group over another, whose differentiation criteria was something other than "personal preference"?

Which is more beneficial, for Conquest points of course, in your opinion, Operations or gathering resources?

[Large_Signature]

They are asking for it to be changed because they no longer wish to use that method, and do not what others to use it against them, not because of some noble cause.

 

Another humorous and baseless accusation.

 

for the fourth (fifth maybe) time, see

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=763243&highlight=Conquest+crafting

 

we brought this issue up before we ever needed to use crafting to win

[ParagonAX]

Some believe that our motivations are noble. Some believe our motivations are vile.

 

In truth, I frankly don't care. Neither should you.

 

All we are advocating for is that all forms of conquest activities be balanced in the conquest points they give. And that people should be able to choose what they like to do to earn conquest points, not be pigeon-holed into doing one type of activity because it's by far the most efficient.

 

This has always been the point that I have repeated over and over and over in this ridiculously long thread.

[Psychopyro]

Oh I really wanted to stay away... But I can't...

 

People saying no one will spend gobs of money just to win at a computer game, think again...

 

How do you think F2P games stay in business? Shoot I'm really surprised that this game has not gone the direction of other games (and I suspect that it could be part of the announcement, we shall see)...

 

In EQ, EQ2, and LOTRO just to name 3 you can BUY your levels to previous content... Yes I said BUY with real money... When SOE did it with EQ and EQ2, subs got one free. LOTRO did a discount for subs when it launched. And people buy these at $50 a pop in most cases. And several. EQ and EQ2 comes with full legendary gear on top of it. Sure you need to hit the next few levels, but that's nothing...

 

Another game famous for people spending money is Evony... That game is a damned cash cow.. I couldn't believe the amount of money people would pay to win in a glorified chat room.. Literally hundreds of dollars (a couple people I know spent thousands) per server just to win... And people WILL do it. It's not even a good game and people drop that kind of cash. People spend massive amounts on Farmville and Candy Crush just to flex epeens... Why on earth would anyone expect a MMO to be any different. I really would not be surprised if people were spending hundreds of dollars per week just to get mats to win a conquest... Shoot I'm pretty sure I know at least 2 people that are...

[Rambeezy]

The rules apply equally to all, right? There is nothing preventing anyone from sending companions out crafting while they're in the operation, right?

 

In order for the system to be broken, wouldn't it would have to produce a distinct advantage to one group over another, whose differentiation criteria was something other than "personal preference"?

 

The level of cognitive dissonance right here is hilarious. Theres nothing preventing anyone from doing NiM operations if they have the gear/skill level. So why should crafting be the only one included in this argument? You are trying to stay on one side of the fence so hard that you blindly make arguments which could be applied to both.

[Large_Signature]

Some believe that our motivations are noble. Some believe our motivations are vile.

 

In truth, I frankly don't care. Neither should you.

 

All we are advocating for is that all forms of conquest activities be balanced in the conquest points they give. And that people should be able to choose what they like to do to earn conquest points, not be pigeon-holed into doing one type of activity because it's by far the most efficient.

 

This has always been the point that I have repeated over and over and over in this ridiculously long thread.

 

Can't reason with stupid

[MeNaCe-NZ]

46 pages now wow.

 

I personally can't believe some people are implying this system it's broken. It's completely working as intended and there is NOTHING stopping you from doing what other guilds choose to do ( crafting ) to get ahead.

 

There are actual parts of conquest points that are more or less exploits and ruining the game for some people ( ask the people who play GSF who more or less get ignored about the fun they are having in GSF matches when people come in and just die to quickly get the repeatable match points ) where as all this whinging about crafting seems like nothing more than sour grapes.

 

If people are spending real money to get ahead on the conquest table do you think BW are REALLY going to do anything about it? In most peoples eyes it's hardly pay to win because the conquest concept is bloody stupid to begin with ( wow guild name on top, top guild at the most boring monotony known in the game, awesome achievement ).

 

Let me ask then those that aren't solidly crafting for conquest points what do your crew skills go towards? Is crafting to make credits? What is more precious in this game? Credits or conquest points? Answer: Each to their own though I can say credits have many uses in this game, conquest points have more or less none.

 

So yeah you get to make credits whilst the others do not and just earn their guild name in dim lights on some random board you only see if you are at all interested in conquest to begin with.

 

If people want to cap the amount of conquest points people can make by selling cartel packs then buying materials should we not also limit the amount of credits seeing as credits are far more useful than conquest points? Kindof sounds silly doesn't it?

 

If crafting didn't have a MASSIVE downside to it in monetary terms I would probably be on the side of the anti-crafting but looking at the positive economic effects it has on the non conquest crafting players it seems to be it balances out fine.

 

In terms of conquest on a whole if anything I've read in the selective few pages of this thread hits any sort of nail on the head it's this:

 

A. The number of things you can actually do with invasion forces is laughable.

 

I feel if these actually had more uses ( or war supplies in general ) people wouldn't feel so butt hurt over crafting because they would be more inclined to craft for a return beyond just conquest points and thus more would be contributing. It would/could make the game more fun depending on the possible uses BW come up with and not really have any effect on the other conquest types as you can always craft whilst running other content.

 

Will it change which guilds come out on top? Of course not, nothing is going to change just due to sheer numbers of active players with multiple toons and their dedication to conquest in those guilds. That's there choice to focus conquest, deal with it and try beat them at their own FAIR game or go find something else to do and stop crying about it already.

[Large_Signature]

46 pages now wow.

 

I personally can't believe some people are implying this system it's broken. It's completely working as intended and there is NOTHING stopping you from doing what other guilds choose to do ( crafting ) to get ahead.

 

There are actual parts of conquest points that are more or less exploits and ruining the game for some people ( ask the people who play GSF who more or less get ignored about the fun they are having in GSF matches when people come in and just die to quickly get the repeatable match points ) where as all this whinging about crafting seems like nothing more than sour grapes.

 

If people are spending real money to get ahead on the conquest table do you think BW are REALLY going to do anything about it? In most peoples eyes it's hardly pay to win because the conquest concept is bloody stupid to begin with ( wow guild name on top, top guild at the most boring monotony known in the game, awesome achievement ).

 

Let me ask then those that aren't solidly crafting for conquest points what do your crew skills go towards? Is crafting to make credits? What is more precious in this game? Credits or conquest points? Answer: Each to their own though I can say credits have many uses in this game, conquest points have more or less none.

 

So yeah you get to make credits whilst the others do not and just earn their guild name in dim lights on some random board you only see if you are at all interested in conquest to begin with.

 

If people want to cap the amount of conquest points people can make by selling cartel packs then buying materials should we not also limit the amount of credits seeing as credits are far more useful than conquest points? Kindof sounds silly doesn't it?

 

If crafting didn't have a MASSIVE downside to it in monetary terms I would probably be on the side of the anti-crafting but looking at the positive economic effects it has on the non conquest crafting players it seems to be it balances out fine.

 

In terms of conquest on a whole if anything I've read in the selective few pages of this thread hits any sort of nail on the head it's this:

 

 

 

I feel if these actually had more uses ( or war supplies in general ) people wouldn't feel so butt hurt over crafting because they would be more inclined to craft for a return beyond just conquest points and thus more would be contributing. It would/could make the game more fun depending on the possible uses BW come up with and not really have any effect on the other conquest types as you can always craft whilst running other content.

 

Will it change which guilds come out on top? Of course not, nothing is going to change just due to sheer numbers of active players with multiple toons and their dedication to conquest in those guilds. That's there choice to focus conquest, deal with it and try beat them at their own FAIR game or go find something else to do and stop crying about it already.

 

you obviously didnt read any of the 46 pages where it was cleary and reasonable shown why crafting in conquest is broken.

 

derp