Domatron Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Yes everyone is aware how effective the return is, however everyone should also be aware that crafting is the only activity that costs. In order to craft you need mats and you need them on a large scale. To get mats you have to -spam resources nodes which costs game time -spam gathering missions which costs credits+real time -buy mats off GTN which costs a lot more credits but not time. Warzones, GSF, and flashpoints only cost time, there is no credit expenditure. Some people seem to complain that it gives to much points for something that occurs passively. (ignoring the active time require to accumulate the wealth or mats) However it is important to note that since crafting is passive, that Crafting+PvP, Crafting+GSF, or Crafting+Flashpoints will always yield higher points than just Crafting, and that statement will always be true as long as crafting doesn't give infinite points. Crafting is also a function of available resources, time, credits and available crafting alts, while all other sources of conquest points are a function player accounts. While larger guild population still gives a advantage in the crafting area of conquest, the effectiveness of it is not purely tied to guild numbers. Or in other words superguilds like Triumph will stand the most to gain from a nerfed crafting system. It is also important to note that a guild that has been as dominant as Triumph has been, will have known about Crafting's effectiveness since day 1 of conquests. Crafting nukes are after all the oldest trick in the Conquest book. However it is interesting to note that Triumph only complains after they burned out on crafting, as evidenced with this quote Now they wish to pursue a different meta having burned themselves out exploiting the old one. Except the part where we posted about it 3 weeks ago http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=763243&highlight=Conquest+crafting That's one of our members so you can firmly plant you accusations back where you pulled them out of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamef Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 (edited) Yes everyone is aware how effective the return is, however everyone should also be aware that crafting is the only activity that costs. In order to craft you need mats and you need them on a large scale. To get mats you have to -spam resources nodes which costs game time -spam gathering missions which costs credits+real time -buy mats off GTN which costs a lot more credits but not time. Warzones, GSF, and flashpoints only cost time, there is no credit expenditure. Some people seem to complain that it gives to much points for something that occurs passively. (ignoring the active time require to accumulate the wealth or mats) However it is important to note that since crafting is passive, that Crafting+PvP, Crafting+GSF, or Crafting+Flashpoints will always yield higher points than just Crafting, and that statement will always be true as long as crafting doesn't give infinite points. Crafting is also a function of available resources, time, credits and available crafting alts, while all other sources of conquest points are a function player accounts. While larger guild population still gives a advantage in the crafting area of conquest, the effectiveness of it is not purely tied to guild numbers. Or in other words superguilds like Triumph will stand the most to gain from a nerfed crafting system. It is also important to note that a guild that has been as dominant as Triumph has been, will have known about Crafting's effectiveness since day 1 of conquests. Crafting nukes are after all the oldest trick in the Conquest book. However it is interesting to note that Triumph only complains after they burned out on crafting, as evidenced with this quote Now they wish to pursue a different meta having burned themselves out exploiting the old one. Dude, you need to let this one go. I am shocked that I'm about to stand up for the folks that kicked my butt last week, but the fact is that crafting is conquests when it comes down to it. Every other activity is just a filler to occupy excess time in between either directly or indirectly supporting the crafting regime. I think you are placing too much value on progress in other aspects of the game (i.e. accumulating credits) vs. the goal of planetary conquest, and you struggle to see why people would choose to pursue a strategy that does nothing but diminish progress towards every other in game goal. Perhaps in that your way of thinking is not that far removed from the OP: Why in the world has Bioware created a system that does just that, and was that their intent? Edited October 1, 2014 by iamef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anyakaschala Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 If you re-read my post, you will realise that there is no other route to victory. That is what I am getting at. Given that BW intended each week to be a different theme, shouldn't playing those content lead to victory? um pvp that is all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruskaeth Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 (edited) Logic doesn't work against these trolls. They stick by their fervent belief that we are harbouring a secret agenda, and that they are absolutely brilliant for seeing through our guises. They absolutely ignore all irrefutable evidence, stats, maths, and the issue at hand. I think many just disagree with changing crafting right now because there is no guarantee that it would bring with it other changes. There have been suggestions about giving more points for winning on pvp, actually getting more points for doing more challenging content like HM and NiM operations of level 55 (TfB, SnV, DF and DP). Also changing operations from final boss to per boss. For now, diminishing how effective crafting is without further changes would turn Conquests to contest of unique accounts per guild, which incidentally is worse than with crafting as it is now. Edited October 1, 2014 by Ruskaeth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulyok Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 (edited) For now, diminishing how effective crafting is without further changes would turn Conquests to contest of unique accounts per guild, which incidentally is worse than with crafting as it is now. Because you have a smaller guild that depends on crafting a lot? Edited October 1, 2014 by Kulyok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oyranos Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 (edited) wrong post Edited October 1, 2014 by Oyranos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SammuelSK Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Nope. If we were given the choice, we would PvP to victory. In fact, almost everyone on our server knows us as a PvP guild. Money sink and mutual assured destruction... probably very much intended. I highly doubt that many guilds can survive for long trying to race each other to the top like that. As for the rest of us, week 5 or week 50, eventually when you kill yourselves trying to top the other we'll hit that spot too. So.. good luck, suspect you'll need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaximusRex Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 While Crafting does math out to the best way to earn points, It also seems to me that its not infinitely sustainable. I wouldn't be surprised if it was intended, as it does a lot more in the short term to clear up the glut of mats and credits. In a few months it won't be possible to post those same kind of numbers and the other systems will become more competitive. We had all the time since launch where all these things just accumulated with little option for output, now they are getting used, its going to take a while to drain the supply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirbyshocksword Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Nope. If we were given the choice, we would PvP to victory. In fact, almost everyone on our server knows us as a PvP guild. It was the only way to win because.... it is the only way to win. Go read the numbers in the OP for details. If you guys wanna pvp, do pvp instead of crafting. Dont waste your credits to conquer a planet if you dont enjoy spending that 500m Do what you and your guild wanna do, and that is pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruskaeth Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 (edited) Because you have a smaller guild that depends on crafting a lot? Not that much. We are definitely not a big guild if we count unique accounts. We do not enforce or even expect people to do conquest points. I have heard some guilds have given a lot of pressure to people to do points (you sick bastards!). That's not us. We are just organized. We do all the activities including dailies, PvP, GSF, Operations and of course crafting too. Hell, we have even grinded opposing factor base champion npcs and flashpoints. I would hope you and everyone else would understand that crafting is currently the only thing making it possible for smaller guilds to compete vs larger guilds. If crafting is capped to x-low points per Legacy it will result this: amount of unique accounts per guild will decide who will win. That would reduce conquests to ridiculous. Of course, people of large guilds QQ about crafting because they want to have the advantage of "zerg" on their side. Even if these large guilds have won by crafts during last weeks, they will get easier victories if they can not be threatened by crafting (zerg alert zerg alert). That being said, most vocal bashers of crafting in conquests are most likely those who would benefit most from it having less impact. This in mind, please understand that I am all for crafting to be more balanced part of conquests but for it to be that --- read below ---> Conquests should not be guild recruitment competition, not from my point of view at least. I do not count ability to recruit a lot of people skill or effort. Give us 10 x points for doing DF and DP Nim, 5 x points for TfB and SnV Nightmares and 3 x points for killed HM bosses on said operations. Triple current points for winning war zones and GSF matches and we'd happily discard having to partially rely on crafting. Giving points related to actual skill would enable more of hard core raiding guilds to participate. That would give chances for guilds who could do a lot of hard mode operations (DF/DP/TfB/SnV) and who still have standards when they recruit. Disclaimer: Us having won a conquest planet has been a miracle! Edited October 1, 2014 by Ruskaeth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParagonAX Posted October 1, 2014 Author Share Posted October 1, 2014 If you guys wanna pvp, do pvp instead of crafting. Dont waste your credits to conquer a planet if you dont enjoy spending that 500m. Do what you and your guild wanna do, and that is pvp. We want to PvP, but we want to win conquest more. It's a sacrifice we are willing to make. Unfortunately, the only way to win conquest now is to craft, no other activities matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienEyeTX Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 We want to PvP, but we want to win conquest more. It's a sacrifice we are willing to make. Unfortunately, the only way to win conquest now is to craft, no other activities matter. What is the point of putting so much "effort" into winning something that you don't even enjoy? I don't understand the motivation. You can do the things you like, have fun, and still advocate for changes to the system. Then, if/when changes are made, you can keep doing the stuff you like AND try to "win" conquest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotharofxev Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Unfortunately, the only way to win conquest now is to craft, no other activities matter. Not exactly what springs to mind when you mention "conquest". "Alexander are we ready to conquer Persia?" "Not yet, we have blankets to mend" "Ghengis the army is ready to attack Russia!" "Hold on, there are more baskets to make" "Attila, Rome is weak, now we march! Yes!" "No my generals, there is Mead to be made" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienEyeTX Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 "Attila, Rome is weak, now we march! Yes!" "No my generals, there is Mead to be made" That is actually the appropriate response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParagonAX Posted October 1, 2014 Author Share Posted October 1, 2014 (edited) What is the point of putting so much "effort" into winning something that you don't even enjoy? I don't understand the motivation. You can do the things you like, have fun, and still advocate for changes to the system. Then, if/when changes are made, you can keep doing the stuff you like AND try to "win" conquest. We want to win conquest because of our desire to win. Period. We don't enjoy the process currently, and we are advocating for change. However, we are willing to craft to victory as is the meta currently, if crafting is intended by BW as being the best method for winning conquest. Hence my question in the OP and title to BW. As for the bolded part, that is EXACTLY what we are advocating. Shouldn't this be obvious by now? We want to win by playing the content. Before we went against Wook, we PvP'ed during PvP weeks, did Operations in Ops weeks, did flashpoints in FP weeks. And that is exactly how we won every planet we've been through. My only goal is to get the system to reward behavior it was designed to do - different activities in different themed weeks. Crafting should be the best method for points in crafting weeks, but no other. Edited October 1, 2014 by ParagonAX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParagonAX Posted October 1, 2014 Author Share Posted October 1, 2014 Not exactly what springs to mind when you mention "conquest". "Alexander are we ready to conquer Persia?" "Not yet, we have blankets to mend" "Ghengis the army is ready to attack Russia!" "Hold on, there are more baskets to make" "Attila, Rome is weak, now we march! Yes!" "No my generals, there is Mead to be made" That is exactly what we are advocating for change. Conquest should be about all kinds of activities (crafting being one of them), not just crafting. See my post above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 That is exactly what we are advocating for change. Conquest should be about all kinds of activities (crafting being one of them), not just crafting. See my post above. Sadly, crafting is the one thing they can indirectly sell on the CM...I honestly doubt you'll ever see it change. I agree 100% with you, but $ speaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Not exactly what springs to mind when you mention "conquest". "Alexander are we ready to conquer Persia?" "Not yet, we have blankets to mend" "Ghengis the army is ready to attack Russia!" "Hold on, there are more baskets to make" "Attila, Rome is weak, now we march! Yes!" "No my generals, there is Mead to be made" I think you have a poor understanding of war in the real world. Look up "logistics." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParagonAX Posted October 1, 2014 Author Share Posted October 1, 2014 Sadly, crafting is the one thing they can indirectly sell on the CM...I honestly doubt you'll ever see it change. I agree 100% with you, but $ speaks. I think you are right. BW has been strangely silent on such a huge and controversial topic approaching 400 replies. Maybe they are busy (not)preparing for 3.0 announcements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienEyeTX Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 We want to win conquest because of our desire to win. Period. We don't enjoy the process currently, and we are advocating for change. However, we are willing to craft to victory as is the meta currently, if crafting is intended by BW as being the best method for winning conquest. Hence my question in the OP and title to BW. As for the bolded part, that is EXACTLY what we are advocating. Shouldn't this be obvious by now? Whatever floats your boat, dude. I don't waste my free time doing stuff I don't like. But that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptRogue Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 That is exactly what we are advocating for change. Conquest should be about all kinds of activities (crafting being one of them), not just crafting. See my post above. *sigh* You are still here rambling I see. Just gonna ask what everyone is probably thinking, You guys crafting to win this week too? lolz You craft to win this week, it's definitely all on you & your choice. If you don't like spending "500mil" for crafting then do NOT do it. It is that simple, honestly. You did NOT have to put up numbers that high to win. If you feel it's wrong way to win, then why did you do it? I'll tell you, PRIDE. You had to win! At all costs. SO you crafted, now in hindsight you're quite irritated that you & your guildies spent so much money to win something that in a few weeks will be lost to you. All for the sake of, hopefully, a title! You won it, it's over with. BW is not changing anything at the moment. They have bigger things to worry about besides you coming to the forums to complain that you won via crafting & it's not right. So TL;DR: Don't do it if you don't like it. You don't have to have that title. It is not the end of the world if you don't conquer & take a planet. But besides that: It is NOT THE ONLY WAY TO WIN! I've already proven that. But you keep ignoring that fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 I think you are right. BW has been strangely silent on such a huge and controversial topic approaching 400 replies. Maybe they are busy (not)preparing for 3.0 announcements? Silent? Hell no!!! They've nerfed every other conceivable means of getting much over 35K, yet they've left crafting 100% untouched. The things they have nerfed, were nerfed because they actually challenged crafting. PvP was nerfed because they hate PvPers apparently. I'd say their actions thus far, speak volumes of what they want Conquests to be about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonNH Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 You know what's funny? There is a discrepancy that is preventing one of the imperial heroic missions on Belsavis from being repeatable compared to the republic counterpart. This places about a 17% handicap against imperial players who are earning points via a repeatable PvE objective, yet there is barely any fuss about it on the forums. My hunch is it's because the issue is not big enough to prevent people from reaching their personal goals combined with the fact that people realize that the points you earn, even from a daily repeatable mission, are so miniscule compared to what crafting contributes towards the final numbers that it doesn't have a statistical impact on who wins or loses anyway. Could you imagine the outcry if there was a 17% discrepancy between factions on what crafting war supplies contributed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 *sigh* You are still here rambling I see. Just gonna ask what everyone is probably thinking, You guys crafting to win this week too? lolz You craft to win this week, it's definitely all on you & your choice. If you don't like spending "500mil" for crafting then do NOT do it. It is that simple, honestly. You did NOT have to put up numbers that high to win. If you feel it's wrong way to win, then why did you do it? I'll tell you, PRIDE. You had to win! At all costs. SO you crafted, now in hindsight you're quite irritated that you & your guildies spent so much money to win something that in a few weeks will be lost to you. All for the sake of, hopefully, a title! You won it, it's over with. BW is not changing anything at the moment. They have bigger things to worry about besides you coming to the forums to complain that you won via crafting & it's not right. So TL;DR: Don't do it if you don't like it. You don't have to have that title. It is not the end of the world if you don't conquer & take a planet. But besides that: It is NOT THE ONLY WAY TO WIN! I've already proven that. But you keep ignoring that fact. Your argument amounts to nothing. Let's use an analogy: I would like to run for president of the world. Unfortunately, the system is so corrupt, that the only way to become president is through bribes and killing competitors. In your world, if I don't want to bribe and kill people, then I actually don't want to be president of the world. In our world, the system should change so that bribing and killing people is no longer the best way and being the best candidate for the position is the way to go. But why should we change the system to so the best candidate wins, when you can just choose to not bribe and kill people and not win today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParagonAX Posted October 1, 2014 Author Share Posted October 1, 2014 *sigh* You are still here rambling I see. Just gonna ask what everyone is probably thinking, You guys crafting to win this week too? lolz You craft to win this week, it's definitely all on you & your choice. If you don't like spending "500mil" for crafting then do NOT do it. It is that simple, honestly. You did NOT have to put up numbers that high to win. If you feel it's wrong way to win, then why did you do it? I'll tell you, PRIDE. You had to win! At all costs. SO you crafted, now in hindsight you're quite irritated that you & your guildies spent so much money to win something that in a few weeks will be lost to you. All for the sake of, hopefully, a title! You won it, it's over with. BW is not changing anything at the moment. They have bigger things to worry about besides you coming to the forums to complain that you won via crafting & it's not right. So TL;DR: Don't do it if you don't like it. You don't have to have that title. It is not the end of the world if you don't conquer & take a planet. But besides that: It is NOT THE ONLY WAY TO WIN! I've already proven that. But you keep ignoring that fact. Sorry I can't take you seriously with your choice of words like "rambling" and liberal use of smilies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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