Lotharofxev Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 There are many online Pazaak simulators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith-Viscera Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 This - SWTOR cannot have proper gambling for credits because this game is pushing its age rating as it is. Please, freaking parents or the majority these days buys adult games for their underage kids, games like GTA: SA, GTA:4 GTA:5 and a slew of other video games. You Can not compare those types of games to SWTOR, you just can't. So what i'm getting at, if BW implemented Pazaak into TOR and lets say it brought the games rating level over 18+, Parents will still buy a STAR WARS game regardless of ratings. So bring on Pazaak!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malastare Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 (edited) After talking to a friend about how gambling rings were formed in another mmo using the minigames, I think I have a handle on why there's no Pazaak. There isn't much in the game as it stands that could be bet on or used to create gambling. Pazaak would be different. This has been argued many, many times in the past. There are two main issues: Legal and Moral. Legal: Legally speaking, in virtually every jurisdiction this game is played in, placing bets with in-game currency does not satisfy the legal definition of real-world gambling. In order to qualify as real-world gambling, you would need to be able to convert the winnings of the game into real-world currency (or in some jurisdictions: items that hold real-world value). So long as Bioware makes you gamble with in-game credits or tokens (which have no legal value) and reward you with in-game credits or tokens and provide no in-game mechanism for converting those to currency, then its not gambling, its simply game play. This is why Pazaak wasn't an issue in KoTOR, why the "gambling" vendors in Diablo II weren't an issue, and why there are perfectly legal poker and blackjack apps for my phone. Moral: Morally, you can argue that any time someone is given the option to pay money to receive a random outcome, that it can invoke the psychological effect of gambling, even if the legal definition is not met. In that respect, Cartel packs are "gambling". But then again, so are gumball machines and claw-machines, baseball cards and cracker jack boxes. There are no set rules about where to draw the line, and since it is based on morals not objective facts, it's virtually guaranteed that there will be disagreement on just how far to go. Just as likely are the people who will be upset over being limited based on someone else's morals. There is an argument to make here about trying to avoid feeding people's gambling addiction with quasi-gambling activities, but if someone is going to seek out quasi-gambling activities to feed their habit, SWTOR certainly wouldn't be their first or last option. Edited September 15, 2014 by Malastare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discbox Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Pazaak would make the game awesome. And thats not BioWares strategy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtJeremy Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Why can't they have Pazaak without gambling? Just make it a mini game and the only reward is the satisfaction of winning. Or am I dumb for suggesting that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec_Fortescue Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Why can't they have Pazaak without gambling? Just make it a mini game and the only reward is the satisfaction of winning. Or am I dumb for suggesting that? Even with gambling there are ways to add pazaak without affecting the core game's rating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickious Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 (edited) I don'the really see the problem of player pazaak games as long as it's in game credits. I think that would be fun personally, rather than just pitting your skills against AI. There of course should wager limits to prevent abuse. Edited September 15, 2014 by Nickious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danw Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Pazaak would make the game awesome. And thats not BioWares strategy. EXACTLY Though i would be fine with a starter deck (free or for credits) and pay CC for other Decks (different back images colors etc), tables, special card decks in CC Packs, etc, as long as they where in collections. I'ld drop 2000CC right away for (full decks) decks and more for CC Packs with random cards for specific (CC pack decks) decks!!!, collect all the cards for your collection deck A, B, C, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malastare Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Perhaps this is a better way of going about the discussion: There is no evidence that suggests the "gambling" issue is the reason why Pazaak/Sabacc is not in the game yet. Note that they had absolutely zero issues putting in a slot-machine minigame for an event, and slot machines are much higher on the "gambling" scale than a card game (zero skill, per-round losses are usually complete). The developers have said a few times that they want to add it. No, you can't copy and paste the code from KoTOR. No, you can't just have a couple interns do it in a week. It takes design, testing and most importantly: game balance analysis. No, they're not running on a skeleton crew. However, they aren't sitting around bored, either. They have plans, and most of those plans are probably made 6-8 months ahead of time. Pazaak probably will make it into the game, but there are other things that are more important right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nydus Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 The only way I see Pazaak being in this game is for reputation rewards with legacy bound chips that couldn't be traded to other players. Why? Because people can't control themselves and the bar has to be set low for people who have no self control. - Arcada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalfear Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Or they are afraid of getting PG 18+ for having gambling (like they already don't have). This - SWTOR cannot have proper gambling for credits because this game is pushing its age rating as it is. Give it a rest already you online, self taught, legal experts (so you try to comment as) SW:TOR already has gambleing (and for real money no less) in SW:TOR Its called Cartel packs where you GAMBLE that you will get something usefull and/or desired for the low cost of REAL MONEY. Thats gambleing 100% gambleing And you dont see the rating go up. They just had slots and casino event And you dont see rating go up So spare uss the already disproven "Theories" about why there is no Pazaak There is no Pazaak because the original developers didnt agree with Pazaak (like they didn't agree with housing, like they didnt agree with achievement system, like they didn't agree with ... (enter a whole ton of things the original devs refuted and ignored because they didnt want it thats now making way into game). THATS WHY Now the old devs gone its time of EA to put Pazaak into game as a mini game once and for all And the online rating (that mostly only effects where copies sold...which is not a issue for SW:TOR anymore) that most custs ignore outright will not change or be effected BECAUSE GAMBLEING IS ALREADY IN GAME. /slaps forehead Its not that hard a topic to understand really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Give it a rest already you online, self taught, legal experts (so you try to comment as) So let me get this straight. First you attack other posters for being armchair pretend lawyers on the internet. Then you make an internet post with an armchair pretend lawyer explanation of gambling. Do you not see the hypocrisy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluejayoo Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I suppose the OP could be right -- we will probably never know -- but I think it's more that EA can't think of a way to make money off of it. My guess as to EA's feature priority list (in order of importance)... 1. Can we sell it on the Cartel Market? 2. Can we sell it to players as a paid for expansion? 3. Will it bring in new subscribers? 4. Will it keep existing subscribers? 5. Will it bring in new players? 6. Will it keep existing players? IMHO... Pazaak is unlikely to do any of these. Only previous KOTOR and KOTOR 2 players even know about the game. A lot of us would like to see it, but no one is likely to start playing the game or start subscribing because the game is added, and I doubt anyone will quit just because the game is missing. Very few people are likely to buy pazaak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heal-To-Full Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Its called Cartel packs where you GAMBLE that you will get something usefull and/or desired for the low cost of REAL MONEY. They just had slots and casino event No. The defining element of gambling is the ability to win money or something else that can be cycled for more gambling in a self-sustaining cycle. Spending money is not what defines gambling. WINNING money is what defines gambling. Hence, raffles = not gambling. Spend $50, get anything from a cookie to a bike = still passable as not gambling. Spend $100, get $99 or $101 = gambling. Stupid, but that's where the line is drawn. In fact, it's been drawn there for a very long time, with semi-legal gambling establishments in the older days dodging gambling laws by players winning "prizes", then exchanging these prizes for money next door. That's what made them semi-legal, and, if proven to be a scheme, illegal. Gambling is not really a 18+ issue, since US law is very lax on the matter. It's an issue of being illegal in some countries, and some foreign countries having extremely stupid laws on what they might define as gambling. SWTOR is a worldwide MMO, it has to worry about not falling afoul of even the dumbest of these laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malastare Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 SW:TOR already has gambleing (and for real money no less) in SW:TOR Its called Cartel packs where you GAMBLE that you will get something usefull and/or desired for the low cost of REAL MONEY. Thats gambleing 100% gambleing No, it's not. Baseball cards are not recognized as gambling by any society that has them. They are not taxed as gambling. They are not regulated as gambling. Magic the Gathering card packs are not recognized as gambling. Grab bags are not viewed as gambling. I know that you feel its like gambling, but the majority of society does not, the legal system in virtually every country playing this game does not, and there are no definitions that support it that don't end up grouping Roulette and gumball machines under the same term. You're using the word for shock value, but you have no facts to support it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altyrell Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) Adding in Gambling, that ONLY uses IN GAME Currency does NOT and will NOT increase the Game's ESRB Rating. http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp TEEN Content is generally suitable for ages 13 and up. May contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling and/or infrequent use of strong language. Simulated Gambling - Player can gamble without betting or wagering real cash or currency Real Gambling - Player can gamble, including betting or wagering real cash or currency Edited September 16, 2014 by Altyrell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malastare Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Adding in Gambling, that ONLY uses IN GAME Currency does NOT and will NOT increase the Game's ESRB Rating. Yup. Thanks for including the link, too. They already added in simulated gambling. No ratings change. So, again: There is no evidence to suggest that Pazaak/Sabacc wasn't added due to concerns over gambling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aalin Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 There is a browser pazaak game that you can play if it means that much to you: http://www.pazaak.org/play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tellenn Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) By introducing CC they pretty much ruled any gambling mini games between two player out. Also it would bring up big gold seller issues. Edited September 16, 2014 by Tellenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelinCarnate Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) Or it could be that whoever goes first is always at a disadvantage. In a single player game that just fine but people want Pazaak so they can play the game with other players. How do you do it in a multi player game that is fair to all involved? Random is only fair over a long period of time and people just trying it out could end up winning tons or losing just as much because the RNG gods decided it was or was not their day to win. Edited September 16, 2014 by HelinCarnate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xatasha Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 One of the main problems games like SWTOR, pokemon and other multiplayer games is that different states and countries have many different laws about on line gambling. Here in Hawaii it would become and issue because of the poorly written gambling laws here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelinCarnate Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) One of the main problems games like SWTOR, pokemon and other multiplayer games is that different states and countries have many different laws about on line gambling. Here in Hawaii it would become and issue because of the poorly written gambling laws here. Don't know how many times we have to go over this but its not gambling if you are not using real money. And no it would not be an issue in HI. Edited September 16, 2014 by HelinCarnate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malastare Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 One of the main problems games like SWTOR, pokemon and other multiplayer games is that different states and countries have many different laws about on line gambling. Here in Hawaii it would become and issue because of the poorly written gambling laws here. Nope, it wouldn't. There is no place in the US where playing a video game that simulates gambling violates any laws. Again: The inclusion of Pazaak/Sabacc is not held back by gambling laws, regulations, or ratings. The gambling aspect is not the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries_cz Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Because they can't make money off of it. They wouldn't be able to add CC to pazaak with out all sorts of legal/rating crap to deal with so it would have to be done with credits. At this point if it can't be tied into the CM it's highly unlikely to be seen as worth the time/money to develop. It might be possible that it could be in an expansion like 3.0 (i doubt it will be but if it's coming that's when it it will come) since the expansion will be a paid expansion. Actually, tying it into CM would not be that much of a problem. Just add "booster packs" to CM, or special "foil" card conversion items (that convert whatever card you have into foil version of it), and you are set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries_cz Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Yeah, i remember how Pazaak made Kotor 18+. Oh wait. Make Pazaak played against AI players only and there's no issue. They just don't want to take the time to code it, but considering how complicated Space, GSF, etc. are, Pazaak and swoop racing should be a breeze, and you have credit sinks like buying new cards too. Just have AI players at each cantina that get harder the higher level planet you go, higher payouts but higher losses. Keep away from pvp pazaak and you'll be fine. Since it's game credits, it is not gambling under US law, especially with AI. And unlike with Kotor, we can't reload after a loss, so Pazaak will be much spendier in SWTOR than in kotor XD Adding Pazaak vs AI to SWTOR makes no sense whatsoever and you just end up with the same thing as GSF did, forums going in uproar "this is not what we constructed in our heads, this sucks". And no coding (and then testing) is EVER a breeze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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