Conquest and Screwing PVEr's

[Transairion]

Of which there will be nineteen unique flashpoint achievements for a total of 38000 Conquest Points with the bonuses (which are on all three planets). That week, PVP players will have to do seventy six PVP matches to make the same amount of points.

 

So... yeah. Why exactly are you crying again?

 

*facepalm*

 

Let me try and make this very clear: Something designed for guilds, with a guild flagship, is not all about YOU hitting your personal conquest score (whatever that is for said week).

 

 

Let's see if I can dumb this down then. I'm assuming the FP Week you speak of is Flashpoint Havoc. Let's assume a 500 man PvE guild (max size) does that, does every single FP on the list. They've all hit their personal conquest score... now what?

 

They are now left with Group Finder Flashpoint x 3 and Group Finder Operation per day. That's it. That's all that's left that's repeatable and barely that. If they are a PvE guild (they're probably not, but let's assume they are) they therefore lose the Conquests if they even place top ten. Why?

 

Because the Top 10/Top guild is going to be doing all that, AND PvPing on top of it as that is nice and repeatable.

 

 

 

Now let's snap on over to the flipside of a PvP guild during Death Mark, which is the PvP event of Conquests.The PvP guild does all the PvP related stuff.. what happens? Are they now blocked by some wall?

 

Nope. They do every single objective, and then they keep queueing. And their score goes up. And up. And up. And up. There's no limit to how many times they do most of the PvP objectives... in fact, some of them are practically handouts. 1000 points for just getting a killing blow in any warzone?!? Nobody but a healer will struggle to get that, and that's repeatable over and over. Every kill, 1000 points for you. You PvP right, you should well know people fall like flies every warzone. The per-warzone completion Conquest score will be massive.

 

That same week, PvE players are using their repeatable: Group Finder. Yikes. Heroics or bust just to hit their personal target.

 

 

 

So therein, is my problem.

 

A pure PvP guild is allowed to PvP forever, and does not have to change anything during PvP Week.

 

A pure PvE guild is not allowed to PvE forever, and has to change to another method (crafting, PvP, GSF) if it wants to at all place on the leaderboard .

 

 

That is a discrepancy that limiting FP's has created. Nobody should be "forced" to change their preferred style of play for the sake of the guild. And especially it shouldn't be "bad" if one playstyle does it and "perfectly fine" if another does, Crafting/PvP/GSF/PvE should be equally viable.

 

Right now PvE just isn't viable for grinding to first place, if even top 10. Planets overlap, there's not going to be times you can simply "go to the PvP/PvE only" planet. Winners are who can grind more, sorry it's true.

 

 

Personal Conquest score and how fast it can be amassed is irrelevant when it's GUILD content. You need a GUILD ship to get the bonuses, if you're unguilded and just doing whatever that's well and good but you're NOT the intended target for this game feature.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Transairion

[LanceCorporalDan]

Those who can adapt and reap the rewards of more options will win.

 

A guild that will do PvE and PvP will be in a better position than a purely PvE or PvP guild.... sorry but being extremist in this regard simply won't work.

[athenaprime]

My concern is that if there's a win requirement, you'll have guilds queuing two ranked teams at 4 am /stucking as they trade wins. Making conquest points for only wins is going to practically guarantee shenanigans. This is why I really think ranked needs to be entirely separate from the conquest system with cross server queuing with its own unique and cool rewards to get people to play. Unlike regs, the ranked system is much easier to abuse.

 

Anytime you have a system, people will find the exploits. I have no doubt that people are, and have been, using guild noobs to farm for kills. For me, personally, the FP exploit was loads of fun because I got to collect furniture from the bonus boss drops. I have a lovely crystal garden, and way too many statues of an old wrinkly guy in a a bathrobe. Should make for interesting bedroom decor. I didn't consider it an exploit because it fell within the rules of the game at the time.

 

Plus, I really think that tying points to wins would be a huge mistake. Encouraging people to do more pvp is healthy for PVP as a whole. While I have seen a lot of inexperienced derps doing hilarious boneheaded stuff, I haven't seen any afkers or people troll dancing in the hundreds of warzones I've done during conquests. The vast majority of people seem to be trying to play, and given time and experience, some of them will actually get better. Noobs shouldn't be penalized because they got rolled by a more experienced premade.

 

As one of the inexperienced derps doing hilarious things in PVP, I'd be okay with more derping in PVP, so I don't feel so lonely in my cluelessness. But since I've been derping--and getting rolled by premades--long before Conquest, I can't say I don't feel a little more resentment over the fact that not only are they farming me for kills, but they're also now getting Conquest points for it. But that's been something fundamentally weak about the PVP system from the get-go--pitting me against a hardcore PVP expert helps no one--I'll never get better if I'm always respawning, and they'll never get better shooting fish in a barrel.

 

Maybe tying it to medals is the way to go. It's really not hard to get eight medals, but it does require at least a minimum of participation, if that's what people are worried about. But I really think that tying it to wins would be a huge mistake.

 

This right here. I'm terrible at starfighter, too, but at least my (infrequent) medals went for something. I'm slightly less terribad at PVP, so I know that even if my team doesn't win, my medals will at least count for something, while it kills the urge I have to go find a quiet corner and multitask crafting missions for the sake of earning more Conquest points.

 

As far as PVE goes, there seem to be a ton of ways to get points this week between the crafting and heroics and world bosses and killing mobs and such. In a few weeks, flashpoints take center stage in their own event, so I'm not sure why people's knickers are still in a twist about this.

 

Seems the biggest twists came from the fact that they nerfed things mid-week. Changing the rules mid-game without resetting everyone to zero is closing the barn door after the horse is gone. The horse is still gone. All that aside, I'm crazy about the idea of Conquest, love my Strongholds (who knew that what I needed most in an MMO was an in-game Ikea. Now all I want is a pet droid that serves meatballs...), and tickled by the idea of having rewards for re-visiting older content. I will be patient while the kinks get worked out.

[Marius_Xerxes]

Those who can adapt and reap the rewards of more options will win.

 

A guild that will do PvE and PvP will be in a better position than a purely PvE or PvP guild.... sorry but being extremist in this regard simply won't work.

 

QFT ^

 

Seems like the best guild to be in is one that dabbles in the most game content. Limit your content and you limit your ability to achieve things. Seems pretty straight forward and logical to me.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Marius_Xerxes

[Prisoner]

*facepalm*

 

Let me try and make this very clear: Something designed for guilds, with a guild flagship, is not all about YOU hitting your personal conquest score (whatever that is for said week).

 

And guilds are... wait for it... made up of individual players! All getting conquest points! Wow! So what I've said still applies.

 

Let's see if I can dumb this down then. I'm assuming the FP Week you speak of is Flashpoint Havoc. Let's assume a 500 man PvE guild (max size) does that, does every single FP on the list. They've all hit their personal conquest score... now what?

 

Now they've probably won the damn planet with NINETEEN MILLION CONQUEST POINTS. Here let me break down the math for you:

 

19 Flashpoint achievements @ 2k conquest points each (because all the planets have the double bonus) = 38,000 Conquest Points

 

38000 Conquest Points x 500 players = 19 Million Conquest Points

 

So what's your freaking point? A pure pvp guild would have to do thirty eight thousand matches to make those same numbers that week.

 

You do understand how math works, don't you? (I actually expect you to ignore the math completely as you did in my last post, since it's terribly inconvenient for you and your claims of being put upon.)

 

This is, of course, assuming that those are each unique accounts since it's your example and I'm guessing that's what you mean by a 500 man guild since you weren't clear. But even with the alts you're probably going to get and the legacy lockouts, the numbers still scale and the amount of PVP you'd have to do that week in comparison to making the same numbers as just pure flashpoints is pretty staggering.

 

They are now left with Group Finder Flashpoint x 3 and Group Finder Operation per day. That's it. That's all that's left that's repeatable and barely that. If they are a PvE guild (they're probably not, but let's assume they are) they therefore lose the Conquests if they even place top ten. Why?

 

Then after they get their 19 MILLION CONQUEST POINTS they'll have to do a few pvp matches if they want more. OH THE HUMANITY!!!! Why is this a problem again when the pure PVP players are lightyears behind during this week?

 

I mean, dude, you do realize that just because someone can do a repeatable that doesn't equal infinite points, right? That people are limited by the time they have to play, the length of the conquest week and the number of points given.

 

Because the Top 10/Top guild is going to be doing all that, AND PvPing on top of it as that is nice and repeatable.

 

So? Guilds that are broad based will have an advantage over ones that just PVP or PVE. That's the nature of the entire conquest system, and not something that's even remotely unfair, especially since each area of interest is getting their weeks to shine.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Prisoner

[Hei_Atzfel]

I understand Bioware has been trying ram PVP down our throats since launch

 

This is the funniest part of the OP, and by funny, I mean completely and utterly wrong. If anything, BW has been trying to shove PvE down people's throats, and this is by and large a primarily PvE game. Want proof? Okay.

 

-Removal of ranked 8v8 (which a seemingly majority of the community seems to feel is superior to ranked 4's)

 

-Removal of Ilum world PvP, granted the engine really can't handle it but there have been major tweaks since, it could be brought back, at least partially

 

-"Exclusive" ranked rewards for S1, which ended up being so very exclusive that it was reskinned for PvE and the CM, now tell me again how many operations mounts you see on the CM or the PvP vendor....

 

-Barely any new WZ maps (granted the same could be said for PvE, so this point is debatable)

 

-Bolster. Yes the intent was to help entry players be competitive, but it almost does more harm than good with all the bugs that have been associated with it throughout the course of its life

 

Yep, BW is certainly trying to shove PvP down everyone's throats. Wonderful insight OP.

[Khevar]

Let's see if I can dumb this down then. I'm assuming the FP Week you speak of is Flashpoint Havoc. Let's assume a 500 man PvE guild (max size) does that, does every single FP on the list. They've all hit their personal conquest score... now what?

 

They are now left with Group Finder Flashpoint x 3 and Group Finder Operation per day. That's it. That's all that's left that's repeatable and barely that. If they are a PvE guild (they're probably not, but let's assume they are) they therefore lose the Conquests if they even place top ten. Why?

 

Because the Top 10/Top guild is going to be doing all that, AND PvPing on top of it as that is nice and repeatable.

You theory only holds true in magical Willy Wonka fairyland, not in real life.

 

During the Flashpoint Havoc conquest, a 500 member guild (with no alts) in it can produce 37 million Conquests points just doing Flashpoints. That's 38,000 each for the legacy, non-repeatable achievements, and 6,000 per day per character for the Group Finder flashpoints.

 

If two guilds were to do this, then sure, one of them would have to do some non-PvE activities to beat the other.

 

But based on the total Conquest scores of last week, even with the first half of the week filled with people abusing the infinitely running flashpoints, nobody remotely approached that score.

 

Conquests is won by total active membership online and doing Conquest objectives. Not by PvP or PvE.

 

If you're guild is exclusively PvE, won't touch PvP, won't touch crafting, it can STILL place 1st by the simple matter of getting more members doing PvE. That's all it is.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Khevar

[Transairion]

Now they've probably won the damn planet with NINETEEN MILLION CONQUEST POINTS. Here let me break down the math for you:

 

19 Flashpoint achievements @ 2k conquest points each (because all the planets have the double bonus) = 38,000 Conquest Points

 

38000 Conquest Points x 500 players = 19 Million Conquest Points

 

So what's your freaking point? A pure pvp guild would have to do thirty eight thousand matches to make those same numbers that week.

 

You do understand how math works, don't you? (I actually expect you to ignore the math completely as you did in my last post, since it's terribly inconvenient for you and your claims of being put upon.)

 

This is, of course, assuming that those are each unique accounts since it's your example and I'm guessing that's what you mean by a 500 man guild since you weren't clear. But even with the alts you're probably going to get and the legacy lockouts, the numbers still scale and the amount of PVP you'd have to do that week in comparison to making the same numbers as just pure flashpoints is pretty staggering.

 

 

Well here's the thing...

 

According to you PvE is easy right? Anyone can do it right?

 

So there's literally nothing but "I can't be f'd doing it" preventing a PvP guild of any type simply getting those 19 million points too

 

That just happened to slip your mind, you're just too busy looking at DEM NUHMBERS MAN. WHEN EVERY SINGLE GUILD GETS 19 MIL, you have multiple number 1 spots. Hint, pretty much every guild come Havoc week is going to do all of those FP's once and get those scary "big numbers", but if they do...

 

One guild with 500 does it = 19 mil

Another guild with 500 does it = 19 mil too!

 

So how do you determine the winner? By doing the actual repeatable stuff. PvP. GSF. Whatever. And the winner is going to be who breaks away from PvE and PvP's. Not out of any desire to, no, they just need another source of points are exhausting the other options.

 

 

Stop ignoring the fact you WILL hit a ceiling no matter what you do in PvE now and accept the fact PvP you can do however much you want. You can do unlimited PvP from 0, you can do unlimited PvP after getting 19 million doing PvE, but you can still do PvP no matter what, and still get points.

 

A PvP guild can get 19 mil easily DOING THOSE WEEKLIES then just PvP to victory cause a PvE guild can't do anything else unless they PvP too. You think running every FP freaking once is a week long activity? It's doable in a freaking day!

 

 

You theory only holds true in magical Willy Wonka fairyland, not in real life.

 

During the Flashpoint Havoc conquest, a 500 member guild can produce 37 million Conquests points just doing Flashpoints. That's 38,000 each for the legacy, non-repeatable achievements, and 6,000 per day per alt for the Group Finder flashpoints.

 

Based on the total Conquest scores of last week, even with the first half of the week filled with people abusing the infinitely running flashpoints, nobody remotely approached that score.

 

Conquests is won by total active membership online and doing Conquest objectives. Not by PvP or PvE.

 

If you're guild is exclusively PvE, won't touch PvP, won't touch crafting, it can STILL place 1st by the simple matter of getting more members doing PvE. That's all it is.

 

 

Except, again, they WILL hit a ceiling. You could have 100 guilds all doing that PvE stuff, and they'll all hit 37 million points. You can't have 100 winners, so whichever PvE guild (or outright PvP guild) expands outward and PvP/GSF/crafts as much as possible will be the winner as that's the only separation point left available to them.

 

 

That's simply the fact of the matter, ignore it and put your fingers in your ears all you like. Stop focusing on your own score and look at the big picture.

 

 

Crafters can craft more

PvP can PvP more

GSF can GSF more

PvE has to do one of the above, or their points will just stop. It shouldn't be that way.

 

 

PvPers don't have to suddenly go PvEing during PvP week, I don't see why PvErs should have to go PvP during PvE week. Which they will, or a guild with the same number of people will get the same score as another due to the ceiling. That's just how limits work. It's exceedingly UNLIKELY the stars will align and that'll actually happen, but that doesn't make it ok to be possible either.

 

 

Even just freaking "Complete a Flashpoint with Group Finder" is something repeatable, not "Complete a Group Finder Daily and get the award" since there's only 3 total.

 

Frankly if someone wants to grind via PvE, they should be able to. None of the others have a ceiling, PvE doesn't need one to this extreme.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Transairion

[Khevar]

You could have 100 guilds all doing that PvE stuff, and they'll all hit 37 million points.

Except nobody has.

 

You're talking theory here. Pure theory with no application to how people actually play the game.

[Transairion]

Except nobody has.

 

You're talking theory here. Pure theory with no application to how people actually play the game.

 

Well it's a little hard to talk fact about a event type that hasn't swung around yet.

 

 

All I know is I can easily exhaust all the PvE options within a day or two and be left with small Dailies (ie the Group Finder limits), but GSF nor PvP has such limits.

 

I just don't think it's fair one type is now exhaustible. If I (or anyone) wants to purely PvE for conquest points, there should be at least one they can grind if they choose. It might be horribly inefficient, but at least it'd be an option.

 

Flashpoints were that option, now they're Weeklies.

 

 

Even a 500 "Complete a Flashpoint with Group Finder" is better than nothing.

[Khevar]

All I know is I can easily exhaust all the PvE options within a day or two and be left with small Dailies (ie the Group Finder limits), but GSF nor PvP has such limits.

If you and a tiny cadre of officers are trying to single-handedly win Conquests because the rest of your guild aren't interested in participating, than sure -- the current system will be a problem for you.

 

But realize you have other options available to you to win.

 

1. Get more members participating.

2. Switch to alts and do it all over again.

 

In some earlier post you crafted this weird narrative whereby you have this huge guild that has a ton of individual legacies, and no real room for alts.

 

If this wasn't a lie, then all you have to do to win conquests is get more people to contribute. That's what's going to get you to win. The guild with MORE participation will beat the guild with LESS participation.

[Grayseven]

Well here's the thing...

 

According to you PvE is easy right? Anyone can do it right?

 

So there's literally nothing but "I can't be f'd doing it" preventing a PvP guild of any type simply getting those 19 million points too

 

That just happened to slip your mind, you're just too busy looking at DEM NUHMBERS MAN. WHEN EVERY SINGLE GUILD GETS 19 MIL, you have multiple number 1 spots. Hint, pretty much every guild come Havoc week is going to do all of those FP's once and get those scary "big numbers", but if they do...

 

One guild with 500 does it = 19 mil

Another guild with 500 does it = 19 mil too!

 

So how do you determine the winner? By doing the actual repeatable stuff. PvP. GSF. Whatever. And the winner is going to be who breaks away from PvE and PvP's. Not out of any desire to, no, they just need another source of points are exhausting the other options.

 

 

Stop ignoring the fact you WILL hit a ceiling no matter what you do in PvE now and accept the fact PvP you can do however much you want. You can do unlimited PvP from 0, you can do unlimited PvP after getting 19 million doing PvE, but you can still do PvP no matter what, and still get points.

 

A PvP guild can get 19 mil easily DOING THOSE WEEKLIES then just PvP to victory cause a PvE guild can't do anything else unless they PvP too. You think running every FP freaking once is a week long activity? It's doable in a freaking day!

 

 

 

 

 

Except, again, they WILL hit a ceiling. You could have 100 guilds all doing that PvE stuff, and they'll all hit 37 million points. You can't have 100 winners, so whichever PvE guild (or outright PvP guild) expands outward and PvP/GSF/crafts as much as possible will be the winner as that's the only separation point left available to them.

 

 

That's simply the fact of the matter, ignore it and put your fingers in your ears all you like. Stop focusing on your own score and look at the big picture.

 

 

Crafters can craft more

PvP can PvP more

GSF can GSF more

PvE has to do one of the above, or their points will just stop. It shouldn't be that way.

 

 

PvPers don't have to suddenly go PvEing during PvP week, I don't see why PvErs should have to go PvP during PvE week. Which they will, or a guild with the same number of people will get the same score as another due to the ceiling. That's just how limits work. It's exceedingly UNLIKELY the stars will align and that'll actually happen, but that doesn't make it ok to be possible either.

 

 

Even just freaking "Complete a Flashpoint with Group Finder" is something repeatable, not "Complete a Group Finder Daily and get the award" since there's only 3 total.

 

Frankly if someone wants to grind via PvE, they should be able to. None of the others have a ceiling, PvE doesn't need one to this extreme.

 

You are so wrong it has stopped being funny. You take the theory that PvP can be done infinitely and fail to use any form of common sense on how PvP actually works in reality.

 

First, the PvE objectives require 4 players. The PvP objectives require 16, only 4 of which can be in any one pre-made group meaning you are now waiting for 12 other players of either solo or grouped type. While you wait, you earn nothing and the waiting can take a considerable amount of time.

 

I've done "just PvP" on my PvP only toons during the last two Conquests and not a single PvP toon even came close to making the 35k. In fact, given the same amount of time played my PvP toons made one sixth of what a PvE toon can make in an equal amount of time.

 

So you are not only wrong about PvP's conquest point ability, you are horrifically wrong.

 

And you really should realize that crafting is PvE and giving it its own little section to prove your point just shows how childish and bad your argument is.

 

Anyone who has done both PvE and PvP in this game knows the truth and if you can't be bothered to actually learn it then your arguments will be ignored completely.

[AlrikFassbauer]

First, the PvE objectives require 4 players. The PvP objectives require 16,

 

Except Arena and OPs.

Edited September 3, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

[Grayseven]

Except Arena and OPs.

 

He's not talking about OP's being repeatable since they never were and Arena's don't pop near as often and still require 8 people to PvE's 4 people.

[JustTrio]

Repeatable or not, PVP players get to continue doing exactly what they've always done. Queue, PVP, repeat. The PVE crowd is forced to do (assuming level 55) sub-level content or one to two at level flashpoints a day. We looked at our (shoddy) PVE options last week and chose to grind out the HM FPs with bonus boss. It at least made sense to be doing BoI/FE since they were based on Ilum and that's where we were attacking. We also decided it wasn't something we wanted to do week in and week out (before it was taken away) . . . unlike the PVP crowd who continues doing what they've always done.

 

So many people come back with the idea that we're on the wrong planet if we're competing with the PVP crowd. We aren't competing with the PVP crowd, but they sure are supplementing their guilds who are on these planets with a whole lot of points while not actually doing anything special to do so. Sure, they're only earning 500 points per match, but it is something they were already doing and, I might add, probably enjoying as opposed to being forced to run random flashpoints through GF (which, I honestly do not enjoy) or getting sub-par points for running an operation (which I can do . . . every 3 days or so per character?)

 

So, yes, I went into GSF to finish out my points on a few characters. That 5 minutes per 1k vs. ??? per 2k was a better deal (and, yes, I mean 5 minutes from the start of the timer, not including the pre-match wait). At that point, that's all I was there for since those characters were not my regulars for GSF (which I do enjoy, when the mood strikes).

 

This week? I'm driving all the f*ck over Voss getting to the widespread heroics. Burning through however much HP is in there while they can't even touch me. Sooooo exciting. I'm glad I have a couple dozen datacron decos to show for my efforts. I'll probably just craft my way out of several characters and then go back to actually running stuff that helps me decorate my money sink / stronghold.

[Transairion]

If you and a tiny cadre of officers are trying to single-handedly win Conquests because the rest of your guild aren't interested in participating, than sure -- the current system will be a problem for you.

 

But realize you have other options available to you to win.

 

1. Get more members participating.

2. Switch to alts and do it all over again.

 

In some earlier post you crafted this weird narrative whereby you have this huge guild that has a ton of individual legacies, and no real room for alts.

 

If this wasn't a lie, then all you have to do to win conquests is get more people to contribute. That's what's going to get you to win. The guild with MORE participation will beat the guild with LESS participation.

 

 

Not trying to win solo as that just doesn't work.

 

Simply saying "Oh, you can't grind PvE if you want but you can grind PvP forever if you want to" just doesn't add up. Whether Conquest should favor PvP/GSF is a whole other can of worms, but if someone WANTS to grind any method why aren't they allowed to?

 

The fact is, PvE can't. The others can but PvE cannot. Nobody was throwing a fit the first week about it either, while it was unlimited (probably because it wasn't actually in PvE's favor!)

 

You are so wrong it has stopped being funny. You take the theory that PvP can be done infinitely and fail to use any form of common sense on how PvP actually works in reality.

 

First, the PvE objectives require 4 players. The PvP objectives require 16, only 4 of which can be in any one pre-made group meaning you are now waiting for 12 other players of either solo or grouped type. While you wait, you earn nothing and the waiting can take a considerable amount of time.

 

I've done "just PvP" on my PvP only toons during the last two Conquests and not a single PvP toon even came close to making the 35k. In fact, given the same amount of time played my PvP toons made one sixth of what a PvE toon can make in an equal amount of time.

 

So you are not only wrong about PvP's conquest point ability, you are horrifically wrong.

 

And you really should realize that crafting is PvE and giving it its own little section to prove your point just shows how childish and bad your argument is.

 

Anyone who has done both PvE and PvP in this game knows the truth and if you can't be bothered to actually learn it then your arguments will be ignored completely.

 

Probably because on the Harbringer solo que PvP/GSF takes just as long spacebarring through Ess did (where I just walked inside), for better rewards, and that's because the majority of PvP games one team dominates the other and it doesn't drag out for 20 minutes waiting out the timer. If your server has you waiting 30 mins for a PvP pop that's not my fault. Heck waiting for a Group Finder Flashpoint of any type usually has me queuing longer than PvP makes me wait.

 

 

And lol, crafting is PvE now? Maybe if you stopped standing on Fleet for hours on end (or just bothered to send your companions on crafting missions from the Fleet!) you'd be one of the magical PvP crafters too.

 

There is a PvP Crafting material lockbox too by the way, so I mean... is that vendor suddenly a PvE vendor now?

 

 

 

But I'm done, really. This is just getting more and more ridiculous and little more then "You're wrong" "No you're wrong!" and I can't explain the logic I'm using any better so...

 

Enjoy I guess.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Transairion

[Khevar]

... but if someone WANTS to grind any method why aren't they allowed to? ...

It's simple.

 

In a competition of this nature, (doing in-game things for points), many people will find the easiest, quickest, least-effort possible way to make said points. In the case of the Clash in Hyperspace event, it was a couple of flashpoints, on repeat. Suddenly, the whole dynamic of the "points-game" changed. ANYONE that wanted to remain competitive had to do the same thing, or drop out of the race.

 

PvE players in this game normally have a pretty large variety of things they can do. Different class quests, planetary quests, heroics, flashpoints, operations, GSI, dailies, weeklies, etc.

 

People that stay in this game for a long time have figured out ways to balance out what they do, to keep the game fresh(ish). Get tired of flashpoints? Go level an alt. Tired of Taris? Go run some 55 flashpoints. Sick of killing mobs? Run some GSI. Etc.

 

When you limit someone's options in PvE, it's going to encourage a faster "burn-out"

 

Maybe you and your guild could stomach running SM BoI 853 times in a row. But the moment you start doing that, the 100K points / hour means your competition has to do the same thing, or perish.

 

So Bioware changed the rules.

 

From where I sit, Conquests would be improved by adding a GREATER VARIETY of things to do. NOT by encouraging people to do the exact same thing over and over.

 

I wish I could somehow make you understand this fact.

[Alec_Fortescue]

gf flashpoints are now repeatable for points. what's the prob? Edited September 4, 2014 by Alec_Fortescue

[Transairion]

Maybe you and your guild could stomach running SM BoI 853 times in a row. But the moment you start doing that, the 100K points / hour means your competition has to do the same thing, or perish.

 

So Bioware changed the rules.

 

From where I sit, Conquests would be improved by adding a GREATER VARIETY of things to do. NOT by encouraging people to do the exact same thing over and over.

 

I wish I could somehow make you understand this fact.

 

 

Except you're ignoring the fact it was a broad change purely to fix an exploit. Which, technically, they didn't actually fix, they just made it so you can only do it once a week.

 

 

There's always going to be a "best method" any week, but I find it pretty bull when the PvE option is "**** THAT'S CHEATING" about doing freaking SM Ess alone, while in GSF Week nobody bats an eye if you run GSF 10 trillion times.

 

Nobody will bat an eye doing Warzones during Warzone week either.

 

 

That's a discrepancy and I don't see any variety encouraged with those two, and that's the issue. They haven't exactly solved the issue of exploiting GSF and Warzones either.

 

 

gf flashpoints are now repeatable for points. what's the prob?

 

If that was the case there would be no issue, but they all say "you must be eligible for the daily reward".

 

You can only get the daily reward for queuing in 3 different queues once each. After that you get no points. If you could keep queueing for GF, that would at least give PvE players an option if they hate PvP/GSF with a passion.

 

 

 

But I can't seem to get my point across regardless so I'm out, gonna spend my time ingame where I'll at least get some credits.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Transairion

[Khevar]

Except you're ignoring the fact it was a broad change purely to fix an exploit. Which, technically, they didn't actually fix, they just made it so you can only do it once a week.

Why do you keep assuming that the ONLY problem being solved was inviting 3 people at the end?

 

The fact that 4 people could get 100K per hour on Battle of Ilum as a full group all the way through the instance was another problem that was solved.

You can only get the daily reward for queuing in 3 different queues once each. After that you get no points.

You are making this more of a problem than it actually is.

 

A guild is going to win Conquests because it is BIGGER and MORE ACTIVE than its competition. It doesn't matter of they do PvE or PvP. If you're unemployed (or on vacation) and can spend all day every day running Conquests for your guild, then switch to a bloody alt and make more points.

 

But wait, you say. My guild is full and does't have room for alts. Then get some of your gorram guildies to help out!

 

Here's an exercise for you. Go look at the global leaderboard thread for Week 2 on reddit. Go look at the #1 guilds for Imperial and Republic Balmorra on every server. Tell me how many of those guilds won by primarily doing PvP.

 

Your problem here is that your complaints are all theoretical. You don't provide actual math. You don't provide hard numbers. You don't provide real-world examples that back up your theories.

 

You say:

But I can't seem to get my point across regardless.

I understand your point. I think most people in this thread that disagree with you "get" your point. We just don't agree with it.

[Prisoner]

Anytime you have a system, people will find the exploits. I have no doubt that people are, and have been, using guild noobs to farm for kills.

 

Oh for sure. The problem I see with ranked win trading is that in a few weeks when the next PVP ranked season starts, if you have guilds /stucking out against each other to speed stuff up, it's going to wreak havoc on the ranking system which isn't terribly cool for the PVPers who actually try to compete for their ranks and titles.

 

As one of the inexperienced derps doing hilarious things in PVP, I'd be okay with more derping in PVP, so I don't feel so lonely in my cluelessness. But since I've been derping--and getting rolled by premades--long before Conquest, I can't say I don't feel a little more resentment over the fact that not only are they farming me for kills, but they're also now getting Conquest points for it. But that's been something fundamentally weak about the PVP system from the get-go--pitting me against a hardcore PVP expert helps no one--I'll never get better if I'm always respawning, and they'll never get better shooting fish in a barrel.

 

Hey at one time, we were all inexperienced derps doing hilarious things in PVP. Even me. No... especially ME. I remember being in my first huttball match looking around and realizing that I had no idea what the hell was going on. Getting better requires time, experience, and not getting rolled so hard that you actually have enough breathing room to learn. I mean, don't get me wrong, I think you can learn a lot from playing against better players and losing. I learn things from better players kicking my *** just about every single day (which is why I love to PVP to be honest. There's always something new to learn). But if you're dying so fast that they've triple capped you and are now just spawn camping it's extremely hard to learn anything.

 

Which is why, if new players really want to get better, they're better off starting in the little league brackets. You have fewer skills to worry about, less godly premades to go up against, and are mostly playing with keyboard turning clickers who may or may not have just figured out what an advanced class is. Sure, you're going to get more experienced players like me screwing around or leveling up a toon through PVP (and there is one hilariously tragic PVP guild on my server that does nothing but run premades in little league because they are too wussy to come play with the big dogs), but they're a lot more diluted in those brackets usually. It gives you time to figure out what the basic strategies are for each map and what your class is capable of doing as you get skills one or two at a time. Lowbies really is for learning, at least in ground PVP. Unfortunately, it's not an option for gsf, which is why I think flying has such a high learning curve.

 

This right here. I'm terrible at starfighter, too, but at least my (infrequent) medals went for something. I'm slightly less terribad at PVP, so I know that even if my team doesn't win, my medals will at least count for something, while it kills the urge I have to go find a quiet corner and multitask crafting missions for the sake of earning more Conquest points.

 

Exactly. I think the carrot works better than the stick when it comes to encouraging people to actually go out and try, instead of camping west all game or hanging out at the ship spawn.

 

Seems the biggest twists came from the fact that they nerfed things mid-week. Changing the rules mid-game without resetting everyone to zero is closing the barn door after the horse is gone. The horse is still gone.

 

Yeah I agree with this. I mean, I'm glad they made the changes. I think the cap on FP makes things a lot more fair and that they fixed stuff that was badly broken, but I was really was surprised that they changed it right in the middle of the week. They really should have just waited until the next conquest week to fix it, especially since they didn't do a points roll back. Because all they ended up doing was make the guilds who'd already taken advantage and were in front untouchable.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Prisoner

[Grouchy_one]

Sure, they're only earning 500 points per match, but it is something they were already doing and, I might add, probably enjoying as opposed to being forced to run random flashpoints through GF (which, I honestly do not enjoy) or getting sub-par points for running an operation (which I can do . . . every 3 days or so per character?)

 

If you think PVPers are enjoying the situation you don't know anything about it. I PvP and PvE, but I haven't been able to stomach PvP right now because of all the people queuing up for it to get conquest point but don't give a d@mn about the outcome. I was in an arena match with 2 healers and 2 DPs on my side. The other healer, over 6 minutes did 7k total damage and 700 total heals, not HPS, not eHPS, 700 total heals! He wasn't being focus targeted because he was stealthed while we were fighting 3v4. His excuse? "I'm doing it for the conquest points". He then requeued for another match. I do PvP because I want to win. Being undermanned because you have 1 or 2 people on your team handicapping you because they only want the conquest points and don't care about the outcome is NOT enjoyable.

 

I don't begrudge PvErs that queue up and who want to win, but there are so many selfish people that think that it is fine to make 7 other people miserable just because they are too lazy to run heroics or farm mats to craft. If you were part of an op and you had 2 people that did nothing but got the rewards at the end, wouldn't you be disgusted? Now imagine that happening multiple times a night. You'd be fed up as well. I queued up for 3 hours of PvP last week and averaged 4 matches an hour with an average of 5 minutes wait between queues. I'd estimate that half of my matches were with selfish people only there for the conquest points (like less than 50k damage in a 10 minute Alderaan Civil War). Basically I wasted half my night with these people because when you are stuck with dead weight, you aren't likely going to win.

 

Yeah, you have some d-bag pvpers that enjoy harassing pve players, but at the same time you have a lot of d-bag pve players (see the Weird People You Met in GF thread). People have been complaining about how PvP is repeatable, but can you imagine having to queue up for 25 - 40 matches knowing that you have a strong chance of having to PvP with one arm tied behind your back? If your attitude is that you can gut it out, I don't want to be there with you because it won't be worth my time or patience. I know that this was happening in the past, but people farming war zone comms actually tried to win because it meant that they would get their relics quicker; with conquests, selfish people hope that they lose quicker so that they can requeue and get the 500 points that they didn't earn, the other 7 poor souls on their team be d@mned.

 

And just to let you know, with my stronghold bonus and guild ship parked on Voss, I maxed out 3 characters before I even played a minute on Tuesday because I queued up my crafters to make the war supplies. No one has to do PvP to get to their personal limit.

[Foambreaker]

I assume they're probably far more time-consuming than speedrunning a LV10 flashpoint with a LV55 character.

 

/thread

[GadgetDon]

BTW, some real world experience:

 

I've got a level 55 cybertech crafter. He hit 25,000 the first day just with crafting. I've also got a level 29 artiface crafter. He hit 25,000 yesterday, mostly with crafting but also a few flashpoints from the group finder. All's well with the world, right?

 

Not quite. My only imperial in an active guild has no crafting skills. Just didn't need it, I haven't had my characters do crafting in a long time. They do scavenging, slicing, and either archaeology or treasure hunting, depending on whether they need to build affection for the achievement. And as stated elsewhere, I don't PVP for a variety of reasons (mostly one reason, the AAAP).

 

I'm at about 8K, having done all the non-repeatables open to her (rampage makeb, rampage voss, weekly tactical flashpoints, weekly HM 55 flashpoints - technically those are repeatable but that character can only get the weekly mission once per week). Even with the lowered value, I don't think I'll hit the bonus point this week. And yes, for me, the personal rewards ARE the key to the Conquest system, the reason to participate in them. I know others will say other things are the key (it's really for guilds, it's really for PVP, it's really for people doing everything) but unlike them I can't claim psychic knowledge of what the developers intended, so I can only say what's important to me and what the motivation for me to participate is.

 

I don't see a path to 25K for her. I'm displeased about that, when it would be a very simple tweak to remove the "must be eligible for the daily reward" requirement and require it be joined through the group finder.

[Grayseven]

BTW, some real world experience:

 

I've got a level 55 cybertech crafter. He hit 25,000 the first day just with crafting. I've also got a level 29 artiface crafter. He hit 25,000 yesterday, mostly with crafting but also a few flashpoints from the group finder. All's well with the world, right?

 

Not quite. My only imperial in an active guild has no crafting skills. Just didn't need it, I haven't had my characters do crafting in a long time. They do scavenging, slicing, and either archaeology or treasure hunting, depending on whether they need to build affection for the achievement. And as stated elsewhere, I don't PVP for a variety of reasons (mostly one reason, the AAAP).

 

I'm at about 8K, having done all the non-repeatables open to her (rampage makeb, rampage voss, weekly tactical flashpoints, weekly HM 55 flashpoints - technically those are repeatable but that character can only get the weekly mission once per week). Even with the lowered value, I don't think I'll hit the bonus point this week. And yes, for me, the personal rewards ARE the key to the Conquest system, the reason to participate in them. I know others will say other things are the key (it's really for guilds, it's really for PVP, it's really for people doing everything) but unlike them I can't claim psychic knowledge of what the developers intended, so I can only say what's important to me and what the motivation for me to participate is.

 

I don't see a path to 25K for her. I'm displeased about that, when it would be a very simple tweak to remove the "must be eligible for the daily reward" requirement and require it be joined through the group finder.

 

I have a bunch of toons this week that won't get the Conquest goal because they don't have a crafting skill and I don't have time to run the amount of stuff needed to get them up outside of crafting and I don't care. It was my decision to not have redundant crafting skills (with one exception) and I can't expect that every week I will be able to reach Conquest goal on all or even most of my toons.

 

To expect every toon to be able to reach Conquest when those events differ so greatly is a bit absurd.