Conquest and Screwing PVEr's

[Ihlrath]

The main point is still being missed here. It's very simple.

 

PVP can gain you unlimited points a day by simply doing one activity over and over.

 

PVE cannot. Every PVE goal has a cap.

[TUXs]

The main point is still being missed here. It's very simple.

 

PVP can gain you unlimited points a day by simply doing one activity over and over.

 

PVE cannot. Every PVE goal has a cap.

 

PvP has no variety and, unlike PvE which you can do 24 hours a day, PvP is 100% dependent on other players doing it.

[Zoom_VI]

The main point is still being missed here. It's very simple.

 

PVP can gain you unlimited points a day by simply doing one activity over and over.

 

PVE cannot. Every PVE goal has a cap.

 

Yes but nobody has unlimited time per day, so the cap is irrelevant. You have to factor available game time.

[GadgetDon]

Dude personal goals on not even difficult to hit for PvE. Its actually significantly harder to get the personal goal as a PvP'er than it is a PvE'er. On my pub raiding guild, around of half of our active members had already hit the personal conquest goal on multiple toons. PvP wise, if you are not on Hoth it requires some 60+ matches per toon for the personal goal, and on hoth requires some 35 matches.

 

Oh and GF operation is a absurd amount of points between it and a the weekly, and the operation changes every couple of days, sooo.....

 

Don't look at this week for hitting the goals, it was very easy to hit it due to the large number of Balmorran heroics and the repeatability of the flashpoint awards. Look at last week, and I'm not looking forward to next week.

[Zoom_VI]

Don't look at this week for hitting the goals, it was very easy to hit it due to the large number of Balmorran heroics and the repeatability of the flashpoint awards. Look at last week, and I'm not looking forward to next week.

 

I'm the only person in my guild that does PvP on a regular basis. None of us either this week or last had any difficulty hitting the personal goals, and of my guild I'm generally on the low end on points contributed.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[dscount]

I agree!

 

PVEr's just got shafted. Bioware took the stupid approach to resolving this when they should have used the BUILT in moderated Daily/Weekly quests instead. Why? Use the dang system you have in place already.

 

PVPr's shouldn't have unlimited repeat and PVEr's get a giant middle finger. We know you read the FORUMS and we know those complaining had good common sense approach to resolving. This knee jerk reaction (Like last weeks) just screwed a lot more people and most likely decreased participation in the whole conquest content. Shouldn't have a swarm of BAD's going to PVP (GSF, unranked, ranked) just to sit idle and soak up points for nothing.

 

FIX IT BIOWARE! Balance PVP / PVE Please...

[Khevar]

PVEr's just got shafted.

Did your guild invade Hoth?

 

If so, then why aren't you doing PvP? How on Earth did you expect to compete when that was one of the PvP planets??

[AlienEyeTX]

PvP has no variety and, unlike PvE which you can do 24 hours a day, PvP is 100% dependent on other players doing it.

 

So much this.

[dscount]

Did your guild invade Hoth?

 

If so, then why aren't you doing PvP? How on Earth did you expect to compete when that was one of the PvP planets??

 

What does that have to do with anything? Doesn't matter what planet we invaded. Sure the bonus is HIGHER on the planet you chose to invade (PVP having more for HOTH), but some people don't want to PVP. (Iike me)

 

So why should PVP objectives be repeatable and all flashpoints locked down to a single? Should have been ALL conquest points tied directly to the existing DAILY/WEEKLY quests instead of a new crap system they have now made conquests. Forcing you to PVP or GSF instead of doing what you want to do.

Edited August 29, 2014 by dscount

[JeremyShelton]

So in my rant I was off a few k, good for you for being so smart Well I'm not bad at math either and with that infinity symbol next to pvp/gsf conquest objectives, you forgot to multiply your figures by 4-18 hours and that's what most pvpers do. So go ahead, recacalculate your total at the end of the day and tell me there's not a gulf between pve numbers and pvp

 

Most PvPers do about 3 hours a day, maybe 4 and 5-6 on a really big day. So going with the not farming method of warzones calculating out for 3 and 6 hours you get:

 

3hrs - with planet bonus 12 matches x1,000= 12,000. No win or weekly bonus this week except for GSF

6hrs - with planet bonus 24 matches x1,000=24,000.

 

From GF, SM FPs, HM FPs, bonus bosses, heroics, you can get roughly 35,000 in 2-3 hours (did that this morning). You are right. There is a gulf between PvE numbers and PvP numbers just not in the direction you believe it to be.

[Zoom_VI]

Most PvPers do about 3 hours a day, maybe 4 and 5-6 on a really big day. So going with the not farming method of warzones calculating out for 3 and 6 hours you get:

 

3hrs - with planet bonus 12 matches x1,000= 12,000. No win or weekly bonus this week except for GSF

6hrs - with planet bonus 24 matches x1,000=24,000.

 

From GF, SM FPs, HM FPs, bonus bosses, heroics, you can get roughly 35,000 in 2-3 hours (did that this morning). You are right. There is a gulf between PvE numbers and PvP numbers just not in the direction you believe it to be.

 

quoted for truth.

[JeremyShelton]

What does that have to do with anything? Doesn't matter what planet we invaded. Sure the bonus is HIGHER on the planet you chose to invade (PVP having more for HOTH), but some people don't want to PVP. (Iike me)

 

So why should PVP objectives be repeatable and all flashpoints locked down to a single? Should have been ALL conquest points tied directly to the existing DAILY/WEEKLY quests instead of a new crap system they have now made conquests. Forcing you to PVP or GSF instead of doing what you want to do.

 

It takes 2-6 warzones (depending on planetary bonuses) to attain the points of one flashpoint. One story mode flashpoint takes maybe 10 minutes and gives 2k points. One hard mode flashpoint with bonus boss takes 20 minutes and is worth 6k pts. Each unranked warzone (at least on a PvP server) takes 10-15 minutes minimum (huttball can be quicker) and gives 1k (with planet bonus) assuming there are others queing for warzones. I would agree to separating out unranked and ranked on repeatable objective (and capping ranked to daily to prevent win farming of ranked), but with the recent change it actually gives some parity in time spent to points received between PvP and PvE. However, if you want the repeatable warzone to be limited then the number of points has to be drastically increased. I can PvE (after the fix) to 35k in 2-3 hrs, but I still cannot PvP honestly to 35k in anywhere near that amount of time.

[Khevar]

What does that have to do with anything? Doesn't matter what planet we invaded. Sure the bonus is HIGHER on the planet you chose to invade (PVP having more for HOTH), but some people don't want to PVP. (Iike me)

It absolutely does matter which planet you invaded.

 

If you invaded Balmorra, it is easier for a PvE guild to make points than a PvP one. You can make 20,500 points per day on a single toon (under the 2.9c rewards) in about 3 hours of play.

 

A PvPer would have to run 41 warzones (FOURTY-ONE) to match those same points, and it's certainly going to take longer than 3 hours.

 

If you have two level 55s, you could make 41,000 points per day in 6 hours of gameplay! A feat requiring EIGHTY-TWO warzones to match.

 

And you'll never convince me that a competitive PvE'er, that puts in 6 hours per day on TOR, and is participating in conquests, doesn't have more than one toon.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Khevar

[ivanhedgehog]

It takes 2-6 warzones (depending on planetary bonuses) to attain the points of one flashpoint. One story mode flashpoint takes maybe 10 minutes and gives 2k points. One hard mode flashpoint with bonus boss takes 20 minutes and is worth 6k pts. Each unranked warzone (at least on a PvP server) takes 10-15 minutes minimum (huttball can be quicker) and gives 1k (with planet bonus) assuming there are others queing for warzones. I would agree to separating out unranked and ranked on repeatable objective (and capping ranked to daily to prevent win farming of ranked), but with the recent change it actually gives some parity in time spent to points received between PvP and PvE. However, if you want the repeatable warzone to be limited then the number of points has to be drastically increased. I can PvE (after the fix) to 35k in 2-3 hrs, but I still cannot PvP honestly to 35k in anywhere near that amount of time.

 

which sm fp takes 10 min? not esseles

[dscount]

It takes 2-6 warzones (depending on planetary bonuses) to attain the points of one flashpoint. One story mode flashpoint takes maybe 10 minutes and gives 2k points. One hard mode flashpoint with bonus boss takes 20 minutes and is worth 6k pts. Each unranked warzone (at least on a PvP server) takes 10-15 minutes minimum (huttball can be quicker) and gives 1k (with planet bonus) assuming there are others queing for warzones. I would agree to separating out unranked and ranked on repeatable objective (and capping ranked to daily to prevent win farming of ranked), but with the recent change it actually gives some parity in time spent to points received between PvP and PvE. However, if you want the repeatable warzone to be limited then the number of points has to be drastically increased. I can PvE (after the fix) to 35k in 2-3 hrs, but I still cannot PvP honestly to 35k in anywhere near that amount of time.

 

After that single flashpoint for 2k you are legacy locked for the week and the same point with 6k HM. So 8k that you can easily make with several PVP matches in a single day. The difference is you can come back the next day and get the same amount of points. Those flash points can't be done again. Then the other difference is a PVP'er can ALSO do those FP's and get the points. Sure PVE'ers can go into PVP and just screw things up, but why should they be forced to PVP? I hate doing PVP, but now I'm stuck and about to become dead weight for some poor team because BW can't design a balanced system for this content that had several extra months for QA and still has issues.

[dscount]

It absolutely does matter which planet you invaded.

 

If you invaded Balmorra, it is easier for a PvE guild to make points than a PvP one. You can make 20,500 points per day on a single toon (under the 2.9c rewards) in about 3 hours of play.

 

A PvPer would have to run 41 warzones (FOURTY-ONE) to match those same points, and it's certainly going to take longer than 3 hours.

 

If you have two level 55s, you could make 41,000 points per day in 6 hours of gameplay! A feat requiring EIGHTY-TWO warzones to match.

 

And you'll never convince me that a competitive PvE'er, that puts in 6 hours per day on TOR, and is participating in conquests, doesn't have more than one toon.

 

Check your math, because it's way off. If the FP's are locked to LEGACY how are you getting 20k in 3 hours on each toon? If you are conquesting on a PVP planet (Hoth this week) then your earning 1k per PVP match so you need 20 of them and you can keep going. Kind of like if I wanted to PVE Black Hole 10+ times - except now it's once per legacy. Same amount of time to run 20 pvp matches it takes to run 20 FP's. Sorry, but that's the jest of my point. Are the points and bonuses all screwed up? Yes - I agree they are not exactly perfect.

 

Bottom Line: BW should have fixed this during QA for the last couple months. They should NOT have changed it mid-week after everyone already MOVED guild ships for best points in conquesting. That was complete crap decision that should have been made starting next week to be fair to everyone.

Edited August 29, 2014 by dscount

[Khevar]

Check your math, because it's way off.

9 Balmorra Heroics x 500 x3 invasion bonus = 13,500 points

2 Ilum Heroics x 500 = 1,000 points

1 level 55 FP group finder daily x 1000 x2 invasion bonus = 2,000 points

1 level 50 FP group finder daily x 1000 x2 invasion bonus = 2,000 points

1 tactical FP group finder daily x 1000 x2 invasion bonus = 2,000 points

 

13,500 + 1,000 + 2,000 + 2,000 + 2,000 = 20,500 points per day.

 

I'm not even including the locked to legacy points.

If you are conquesting on a PVP planet (Hoth this week) then your earning 1k per PVP match so you need 20 of them and you can keep going. Kind of like if I wanted to PVE Black Hole 10+ times - except now it's once per legacy. Same amount of time to run 20 pvp matches it takes to run 20 FP's.

You're missing a very important point. Any imbalance between PvP and PvE only matters if they are conquering the same planet.

 

I have no problem pushing for balance. I have no problem fixing a disparity between PvP and PvE.

 

What I do have a problem with, is your absurd and ridiculous hyperbole as you joined this thread:

PVEr's just got shafted.

This is untrue, isn't the real problem, and does absolutely nothing to help fix any balancing issues in Conquests.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Khevar

[Kalfear]

man some of the trolls in this thread who DONT understand what legacy means and refuse to admit what every knows is happening is beyond belief (well sadly not really for SW:TOR community)

 

As for the Conquest issue, its really a easy fix that would work for all

 

- Flash points are repeatable but contain 2 specific riders to qualify for conquest points

1) your ENTIRE PARTY must be of level that content is green or higher in difficulty (in other words if content is grey to even one group member, the entire party eliminated from gaining conquest points)

2) To earn Conquest points you must be present and in group at the start of the Flash Point. (Now this will punish legitimate players who group Find into a party who lost someone sadly, but the exploiters who utilized the group bug to join completed flash points for points have created this requirement in the conquest game. So the innocent few will suffer for the over all greater good of game)

 

- Heroics are doable once per day per character that qualifies to do them (no changes from current system really as you can only do a heroic once per day per character anyways)

 

- PVP rewards are repeatable but contain 2 important change to eliminate the ranked pre mades from farming the unranked assortments for equal WZ conquest points/

1) ALL unranked warzones are now solo queue and game will intentionally try to place guilded players in separate war zones to attempt to ensure a more balanced and fair unranked war zone experience.

 

Please note: Personally I think they should go even further and just do away with the expertise stat completely in unranked pvp. But already seen the PVPers who live and die off having that artificial advantage will whine to high hell about being forced to have a equal power fight where they actually have to play smart to win. So no expertise will never fly in this game and game will continue to have uninspired and kiddy like PVP content.

 

2) In the Ranked PVP Warzones, due to its competitive nature by design, the rewards should greatly reflect the winning side with almost a winner take all mentality. Ranked is suppose to be the best of the best and about winning so warzone conquest points should be divided up on like a 90/10 split

If you get 1000 for a win and 500 for a match in unranked

it should be 1350 for a win and 150 for a match in the ranked warzone bracket to reflect the nature of the ranked system.

While I fully support rewarding effort and participation in the Unranked Warzone bracket, players in the Ranked should accept that Ranked is NOT about participation and effort. Its about WINNING PERIOD

 

Please note: Having ran warzones for conquest points last week to keep my guild in top 10 spot I know first hand how easy it was to more then double my conquest points in 4 hours of pvp, compared to the 4 1/2 days of PVE/crafting it took that characters to earn before hand. So the rewards given to PVP (and probably Starfighter if its the same match speed) needs to be lessened so no one play style is any more important then the other.

 

- Crafting remains repeatable but rewards are raised some due to unbalanced reward vrs cost crafters receive. Those War Supplies will eat up materials very fast so its impossible for a crafter to remain even competitive with a PVEer or PVPer or starfighter player conquest point wise.

 

- Due to the 3 1/2 hour crafting time, Invasion Supplies rewards will be drastically enhanced to better suit the long crafting times of the items and the amazing amount of mats it takes to even be able to make a single invasion supply

 

Do those changes to the Conquest system and you have a balanced and fair conquest system (I did not propose any changes to Starfighter because until joystick control is implemented I will not do Star Fighters. So unlike many posters on this thread and forum, I will not claim to know whats best for that particular game content involving Star Fighter content.

 

Its not rocket science to figure out how to make the conquest system fair and equal

 

Conquest in my mind should be about all parts and styles of the game

With no one area being more important then th eother

 

Sadly I do believe now Conquests are just about a artificial promotion of PVP and Starfighter (both of whom the metrics showed severely lacking in support and participation prior to this). Rather then FIX the PVP so people are interested and willing to take part, they try to dangle a virtual carrot to get people to forget how much they disliked the current set up.

 

So I doubt any meaningful and balanced changes will take place regarding Conquests

 

Well at least until they see the changes they did already will actually drive players away from participating in conquest activities on a whole.

 

I personally was begrudgingly willing to do 55 PVP 1 day a week for my guild as long as the rest of week I could do my points in flash points, crafting, and to a lesser degree specific heroics (sorry but as Im 55 doing a lowbie planet like Balmorra heroics holds no interest to me. Rather rerun a green or higher flashpoint for points). But with out the 4.5 days of non PVP to do, no way Ill waste even half a day in 55 pvp, there fore LOWERING my Warzone Participation once again, NOT growing it.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Kalfear

[BuriDogshin]

quoted for truth.

But ignores the legacy wide lockout that has been imposed on the FP objectives.

Fine for people with just one toon, but annoying as hell for the rest of us.

[Essence_of_Light]

But ignores the legacy wide lockout that has been imposed on the FP objectives.

Fine for people with just one toon, but annoying as hell for the rest of us.

 

^^qft

[Khevar]

But ignores the legacy wide lockout that has been imposed on the FP objectives.

Fine for people with just one toon, but annoying as hell for the rest of us.

For what it's worth, I liked your idea in the other thread about having new Weeklies for the flashpoints that are per toon, not per legacy.

[RebekahWSD]

PVPers will suffer from this system too, those that are here for the game itself and not for conquest.

 

When the large, motivated conquest guilds (the kind that were pulling the Battle of Illum business that started all this) flood the queues with 4 man teams with the express goal of losing as quickly as possible PVP and GSF will become powerfully unfun for everyone.

Edited August 29, 2014 by RebekahWSD

[TravelersWay]

9 Balmorra Heroics x 500 x3 invasion bonus = 13,500 points

2 Ilum Heroics x 500 = 1,000 points

1 level 55 FP group finder daily x 1000 x2 invasion bonus = 2,000 points

1 level 50 FP group finder daily x 1000 x2 invasion bonus = 2,000 points

1 tactical FP group finder daily x 1000 x2 invasion bonus = 2,000 points

 

13,500 + 1,000 + 2,000 + 2,000 + 2,000 = 20,500 points per day.

 

I'm not even including the locked to legacy points.

 

You're missing a very important point. Any imbalance between PvP and PvE only matters if they are conquering the same planet.

 

I have no problem pushing for balance. I have no problem fixing a disparity between PvP and PvE.

 

What I do have a problem with, is your absurd and ridiculous hyperbole as you joined this thread:

 

This is untrue, isn't the real problem, and does absolutely nothing to help fix any balancing issues in Conquests.

 

Only works if you have max level characters or those high enough in either or both factions to hit certain planets. If you do not, PvP is quicker and easier.

[Khevar]

Only works if you have max level characters or those high enough in either or both factions to hit certain planets. If you do not, PvP is quicker and easier.

True.

 

But tell me honestly. If your PvE guild didn't have any max level characters (or very few of them), and they decided to participate in Conquests, and they invaded a planet with a x2 or x3 PvE bonus, would you really expect them to win?

 

If so, how would you propose to retune Conquests for this to happen?

[TravelersWay]

True.

 

But tell me honestly. If your PvE guild didn't have any max level characters (or very few of them), and they decided to participate in Conquests, and they invaded a planet with a x2 or x3 PvE bonus, would you really expect them to win?

 

If so, how would you propose to retune Conquests for this to happen?

 

I'm not really all that concerned about the guild conquests. AFAIK my guild has no interest in them. I am more interested in finding the easiest way to nab the rewards for the personal conquests in the limited time I have to play with my cache of low-mid level toons. Right now, after the patch, PvP is the way to go. And hey, if it helps to contribute to the guild points, so much the better.

Edited August 30, 2014 by TravelersWay