Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Fist of the Empire vs the Confederacy

[Aurbere]

Who can hurt them more? The third most powerful man in the galaxy, the man who talks to Palps on the daily, the man who casually uses biological weapons and who owns the underworld?

 

Or some random Sith?

 

Black Sun spans the entire galaxy defection is meaningless if you can't live. Kill Xizor and nothing happens. Black Sun still lives. Let's not forget that Black Sun had it's own fleet anyway. If they didn't defect, I doubt this would now.

 

Did you just call Dooku a random Sith? The warlord of the largest droid army in galactic history is a random Sith? One of the richest men in the galaxy is a random Sith? One of the most infamous men in the galaxy is a random Sith? One of... you get it. Dooku's an infamous figure, not some random Sith.

[Silenceo]

Did you just call Dooku a random Sith? The warlord of the largest droid army in galactic history is a random Sith? One of the richest men in the galaxy is a random Sith? One of the most infamous men in the galaxy is a random Sith? One of... you get it. Dooku's an infamous figure, not some random Sith.

 

Who? Neva heard of um! *Leaps into nucular bunker*

 

Couldn't resist!

[Aurbere]

I'd just like to point out before I go to bed (I have to be up early tomorrow) that these boarding craft are heavily armored. And while Kilran may have experience with boarding parties, that won't help the Empire if he's dead via Stinger

 

But seriously, assassination will happen. Xizor knows he can't win in a straight fight, especially if the enemy has a serious tactician. However, Xizor is cunning, patient, and highly intelligent. Use the Stinger to destroy the the Invincible, or send Guri and some C-B3's and it's game over.

 

And boarding parties may use troops, but if the CIC wins, reinforcements will come quickly. As for costs- Xizor can handle it. As can Black Sun.

 

As I pointed out, the Furys could take out the Stinger since they're packing so much heat.

 

Kilran defeated a Jedi Strike Team, he can handle Guri. He will also martial everything he has to repel boarders. As I noted before, the Empire's marines were feared as highly skilled fighters.

 

Xizor can afford to pay for C-B3s, but making them is another thing for obvious reasons. They will take a great deal of time to make.

 

Besides, he can't afford to take from his ground force. He is massively outgunned and outmanned on the ground.

[Aurbere]

Who? Neva heard of um! *Leaps into nucular bunker*

 

Couldn't resist!

 

Everybody knows Dooku, he was even a force in the underworld.

 

And I knew you were joking.

 

Anyway, logging off for the night. Someone fill in for me, please.

[Beniboybling]

I think its pretty obvious that Xizor has more pull in the underworld than Dooku. So simply based on that Xizor > Dooku in terms of persuasion, unless Dooku can bring a seperate advantage to the table.

 

Also, just to note, Canino has changed his organisation base to Coruscant - Xizor's Palace to be exact.

[LadyKulvax]

Dooku sends Ventress and a handful of Sith Warriors to the Black Sun base and threatens them with a rendition of Maul's previous visit, either one of them to be exact. Noting of course the second time Black Sun was very accomodating after some... persausion. Edited August 8, 2014 by LadyKulvax

[tausra]

Lets not forget Pirates weren't known for their discipline. How long before an impatient Pirate over commits on a raid? Because of a lack of over-all coordination, how likely is it that a number of ships decide to follow one of the Ally's personal ships into the fray? Hit and run tactics are well and good, but to do so effectively takes a lot of coordination and discipline.

 

Or, as South Park would say: http://youtu.be/tdbORXEmbnk

[LadyKulvax]

Expanding on my earlier post I believe a visit by the Sith where the Black Sun leadership is 'convinced' and a puppet is installed to replace Xizor as head of the organisation is a very very likely defection waiting to happen.

 

Xizor in the lore is the third most powerful man in the galaxy during the GCW. Dooku however was the second most powerful man in the galaxy as the leader of the CIS.

 

In this Kaggath they are two leaders of opposing factions and if Black Sun is pulled out from under him, he loses both his fleet and his intelligence at once, his influence is diminished severely.

 

Furthermore I can see Dooku rehiring Durge.

[StarSquirrel]

Well this has been interesting, if a little heated...

 

I have a couple of points I've been thinking of as I've looked around.

 

in regards to fleets:

 

1. The Broadside shouldn't be underestimated. As we saw in my and Rayla's first match (a while ago) missile-armed ships used properly can decimate a larger and more powerful fleet. Beni's idea of dropping in well out of range of the FE ships, letting loose a volley that destroys a ship or two and going back to hyperspace does two things

 

-It pins the FE fleet to Tatooine if it wants to avoid getting picked apart

-It, by extension, gives the CIC the chance to raid FE supply lines and destroy their suppliers/organization

 

Question: can orbital bombardment be used on supplier/organization worlds as opposed to the battleground? If so, it takes 1-2 broadsides to carpet-bomb the FE's suppliers out of existence.

 

The Broadside's missiles combined with sensor jamming (which we agreed was a "pirate upgrade" right?) means the FE fleet is exposed to having 1,440 diamond boron missiles at a time slamming into 2-3 ships with no warning. That, by the way, is a single volley. Each ship on its own (without resupply) has at least 1,200 of these missiles. If, in every engagement the CIC fleet drops out of hyperspace on the fringes of the system, lets loose a volley or two, and retreats the FE has absolutely no means of reaching them in time with anything other than fighters, which crusaders and interceptors can easily dispatch.

 

2. Black Sun naval officers would be terrible in a straight-up fight. They'd lose cohesion and/or run away if they started to take heavy losses. However, hit and run/raids are their speciality. You don't get to be expert pirates (heck you don't live as long) if you jump the gun or overcommit to a raid.

 

Pirates know when to cut losses and turn tail. They are masters of the very strategy they will need to employ here. Kilran is used to a republic that will face him head-on and/or overcommit so that he can lay traps or predict their moves. Out of curiosity, does he have any experience dealing with pirates?

 

Now out of fleet matters I had two more major questions.

 

1. Black Sun: they're still filthy rich right?

2. Xizor: he's still filthy rich right?

 

If so, say hello to many more of the Annihilator droids because the biggest reason those weren't heavily used was cost and cost is no issue for these underworld leaders.

[Beniboybling]

Question: can orbital bombardment be used on supplier/organization worlds as opposed to the battleground? If so, it takes 1-2 broadsides to carpet-bomb the FE's suppliers out of existence.

 

...

 

Now out of fleet matters I had two more major questions.

 

1. Black Sun: they're still filthy rich right?

2. Xizor: he's still filthy rich right?

1. Fraid not, orbital bombardment is not permitted at all.

 

2. Yes, the Black Sun have access to all their monetary assets. Xizor technically does not but considering he is the leader of the Black Sun and the Black Sun are the Confederacy's supplier he has full access to his powerbase.

[Beniboybling]

Furthermore I can see Dooku rehiring Durge.

I must disagree with this point on the premise that Durge only engaged in war for blood, profits were secondary. Durge is not interested in Dooku's money if he is going to have him fighting hunks of moving metal.

[Aurbere]

OK, something's always been bugging me with these debates. One side always brings up that their fleets will come in and get all set up in a strategically advantageous position and the other side can't do jack all about it.

 

My question is: What's up with that? I mean, I thought both fleets were in system and ready to go. Is that not the case? Am I crazy for thinking that both sides would be on an even playing field?

 

About Annihilators, yes, Xizor can afford them, but you still have to make them. If they were so easy to make, then there would have been more of them by the tail end of the war. It's not just cost you have to deal with. And don't expect to field an army of annihilators because Xizor.

[Beniboybling]

OK, something's always been bugging me with these debates. One side always brings up that their fleets will come in and get all set up in a strategically advantageous position and the other side can't do jack all about it.

 

My question is: What's up with that? I mean, I thought both fleets were in system and ready to go. Is that not the case? Am I crazy for thinking that both sides would be on an even playing field?

 

About Annihilators, yes, Xizor can afford them, but you still have to make them. If they were so easy to make, then there would have been more of them by the tail end of the war. It's not just cost you have to deal with. And don't expect to field an army of annihilators because Xizor.

I can guess what your referring to, but just to be clear both fleets start out of range of each other, in equally neutral positions. So, assuming we are talking about Broadsides, they would be initially out of range, and equally outside of your sensors. Think of it as the opening positions in EaW, though in this case line of sight is a factor.

[Aurbere]

I can guess what your referring to, but just to be clear both fleets start out of range of each other, in equally neutral positions. So, assuming we are talking about Broadsides, they would be initially out of range, and equally outside of your sensors. Think of it as the opening positions in EaW, though in this case line of sight is a factor.

 

That clears it up, now I can plan a proper strategy.

[StarSquirrel]

OK, something's always been bugging me with these debates. One side always brings up that their fleets will come in and get all set up in a strategically advantageous position and the other side can't do jack all about it.

 

My question is: What's up with that? I mean, I thought both fleets were in system and ready to go. Is that not the case? Am I crazy for thinking that both sides would be on an even playing field?

 

About Annihilators, yes, Xizor can afford them, but you still have to make them. If they were so easy to make, then there would have been more of them by the tail end of the war. It's not just cost you have to deal with. And don't expect to field an army of annihilators because Xizor.

 

They are far enough apart at the start that either side can withdraw (jump to hyperspace) and not immediately engage. As much as you might like a close engagement start, it is more fair and logical to everyone that the fleets are standing off from one another before they begin.

 

From here any fleet that needs to reposition and gain an advantage has a capacity to do so. Currently, your fleet won't gain much by doing anything aside from charging. The CIC fleet would be best served by withdrawing and then proceeding to engage on their terms.

 

About Annihilators: actually cost is the most cited reason that not many were built. To add to that, the Black Sun can funnel their extremely vast galaxy-spanning monetary resources into essentially a planetary conflict. If I showed up on earth with a lump sum higher than the GDP of every nation and asked for something, they'd find a way to get it for me...

 

I wouldn't expect the CIC to be fielding 20-30 of them but considering they were built at the end of the war and the war lasted roughly 4 years. Lets assume that there were about 100 in the course of say 12 months. If we average 4 weeks in a month, it works out to 2 a week or ~1 every 3 days. If we increase production by, say, a conservative 40% with Black Sun's monetary resources we get 3 a week or ~1 every 2 days.

 

To add to that, I honestly think the money the CIC has could boost production by around 100-150% but that is something the arbiter will have to decide. This isn't, by the way, an argument meant to openly favor Canino it is just my logical analysis of the supply capacities.

 

So my position is that the CIC can field at the bare minimum, 3 every week this battle lasts. Also, the CIC has the advantage of droidekas, which are also produced by the colicoid nest and work in perfect tandem with the Annihilators.

 

I should also mention, the Colicoids were still building droidekas when they built the Annihilators, so don't think there would be any production choices here. They can build both...

[Aurbere]

They are far enough apart at the start that either side can withdraw (jump to hyperspace) and not immediately engage. As much as you might like a close engagement start, it is more fair and logical to everyone that the fleets are standing off from one another before they begin.

 

From here any fleet that needs to reposition and gain an advantage has a capacity to do so. Currently, your fleet won't gain much by doing anything aside from charging. The CIC fleet would be best served by withdrawing and then proceeding to engage on their terms.

 

You sound so hostile. I was asking a sincere question about a problem I've had with these battles, a question Beni already answered.

 

About Annihilators: actually cost is the most cited reason that not many were built. To add to that, the Black Sun can funnel their extremely vast galaxy-spanning monetary resources into essentially a planetary conflict. If I showed up on earth with a lump sum higher than the GDP of every nation and asked for something, they'd find a way to get it for me...

 

I wouldn't expect the CIC to be fielding 20-30 of them but considering they were built at the end of the war and the war lasted roughly 4 years. Lets assume that there were about 100 in the course of say 12 months. If we average 4 weeks in a month, it works out to 2 a week or ~1 every 3 days. If we increase production by, say, a conservative 40% with Black Sun's monetary resources we get 3 a week or ~1 every 2 days.

 

To add to that, I honestly think the money the CIC has could boost production by around 100-150% but that is something the arbiter will have to decide. This isn't, by the way, an argument meant to openly favor Canino it is just my logical analysis of the supply capacities.

 

So my position is that the CIC can field at the bare minimum, 3 every week this battle lasts. Also, the CIC has the advantage of droidekas, which are also produced by the colicoid nest and work in perfect tandem with the Annihilators.

 

I should also mention, the Colicoids were still building droidekas when they built the Annihilators, so don't think there would be any production choices here. They can build both...

 

That's fine. Battle probably won't last long enough for them to make a difference anyway, but I can probably put the CCN to rest either way.

[tausra]

Which means we need to talk about ship speed, handling and accuracy. How fast can the FE accelerate and how close do they have to be to fire on the enemy? How much weaponry can the CI bring to bear whilst moving away? How agile are both fleets, and how accurate are they while on the move?

[Aurbere]

Which means we need to talk about ship speed, handling and accuracy. How fast can the FE accelerate and how close do they have to be to fire on the enemy? How much weaponry can the CI bring to bear whilst moving away? How agile are both fleets, and how accurate are they while on the move?

 

Of course the CICs ships are faster, but the only ones with any decent weaponry are the Broadsides, and they can't just sit and fire, they have to move back lest they be targeted by the Fist's fleet. Not to mention that, when they are moving, they don't fire at all unless they are going straight forward, which isn't a good idea.

[tausra]

About Annihilators: actually cost is the most cited reason that not many were built. To add to that, the Black Sun can funnel their extremely vast galaxy-spanning monetary resources into essentially a planetary conflict. If I showed up on earth with a lump sum higher than the GDP of every nation and asked for something, they'd find a way to get it for me...

 

I wouldn't expect the CIC to be fielding 20-30 of them but considering they were built at the end of the war and the war lasted roughly 4 years. Lets assume that there were about 100 in the course of say 12 months. If we average 4 weeks in a month, it works out to 2 a week or ~1 every 3 days. If we increase production by, say, a conservative 40% with Black Sun's monetary resources we get 3 a week or ~1 every 2 days.

 

To add to that, I honestly think the money the CIC has could boost production by around 100-150% but that is something the arbiter will have to decide. This isn't, by the way, an argument meant to openly favor Canino it is just my logical analysis of the supply capacities.

 

So my position is that the CIC can field at the bare minimum, 3 every week this battle lasts. Also, the CIC has the advantage of droidekas, which are also produced by the colicoid nest and work in perfect tandem with the Annihilators.

 

I should also mention, the Colicoids were still building droidekas when they built the Annihilators, so don't think there would be any production choices here. They can build both...

 

Money can buy much, but there is a limit to how much efficiency that you can buy. All the money in the world cannot cause a manufacturer to work beyond their capacity. Cost also goes up exponentially as you hire more people and demand faster yields. Essentially, as more people work, accidents go up which dove-tails nicely into the idea that haste makes mistakes.

 

Secondly, CI seems perfectly willing to throw all the money in the galaxy around everywhere. Even someone fabulously wealthy has limits, and pirates are notoriously greedy. I would be curious to see exactly how much the CI has promised their pirates, and if the FE could offer more to large numbers.

[StarSquirrel]

You sound so hostile. I was asking a sincere question about a problem I've had with these battles, a question Beni already answered.

 

That's fine. Battle probably won't last long enough for them to make a difference anyway, but I can probably put the CCN to rest either way.

 

It wasn't meant to be hostile, I was pointing it out more as a statement of fact that your fleet would be overly and unfairly advantaged in a close engagement. Sorry bout that.

 

Well you can hope, but from the look of things on the ground you have your work cut out for you. The CIC is so freakin mobile and high-quality I can't imagine the FE wiping the CIC out very quickly.

 

I had an idea. As a mean to counter Annihilators droids, what if a F9-TZ Transports coaked and maneuvered its way into the Annihilator's shields loaded with explosives or commando droids and just blew it up/ripped it apart? Essentially a vehicular grenade roll...

[Beniboybling]

Money can buy much, but there is a limit to how much efficiency that you can buy. All the money in the world cannot cause a manufacturer to work beyond their capacity. Cost also goes up exponentially as you hire more people and demand faster yields. Essentially, as more people work, accidents go up which dove-tails nicely into the idea that haste makes mistakes.

 

Secondly, CI seems perfectly willing to throw all the money in the galaxy around everywhere. Even someone fabulously wealthy has limits, and pirates are notoriously greedy. I would be curious to see exactly how much the CI has promised their pirates, and if the FE could offer more to large numbers.

The factories on Hypori are automated...

[StarSquirrel]

Money can buy much, but there is a limit to how much efficiency that you can buy. All the money in the world cannot cause a manufacturer to work beyond their capacity. Cost also goes up exponentially as you hire more people and demand faster yields. Essentially, as more people work, accidents go up which dove-tails nicely into the idea that haste makes mistakes.

 

Secondly, CI seems perfectly willing to throw all the money in the galaxy around everywhere. Even someone fabulously wealthy has limits, and pirates are notoriously greedy. I would be curious to see exactly how much the CI has promised their pirates, and if the FE could offer more to large numbers.

 

The FE has no monetary base. They have no large quantities of money with which to buy anyone's loyalty.

 

As for your first point. Note my calculations are based on a couple things.

1. Since we know monetary factors were the leading reason for lack of production then we know it was not as much an issue of production capacity. Hence my conservative figure of 40-50% improvement. We aren't talking a tripling of production or anything so extreme.

 

2. Colicoids and machines make mistakes? Not Likely

 

3. The Black Sun has very deep pockets. They are channelling a galaxy worth of resources into a planetary conflict, just keep that in mind.

Edited August 8, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Beniboybling]

The FE has no monetary base. They have no large quantities of money with which to buy anyone's loyalty.

 

As for your first point. Note my calculations are based on a couple things.

1. Since we know monetary factors were the leading reason for lack of production then we know it was not as much an issue of production capacity. Hence my conservative figure of 40-50% improvement. We aren't talking a doubling of production or anything so extreme.

 

2. Colicoids and machines make mistakes? Not Likely

 

3. The Black Sun has very deep pockets. They are channelling a galaxy worth of resources into a planetary conflict, just keep that in mind.

They have the Trade Federation...

[StarSquirrel]

They have the Trade Federation...

 

Woops, still comparatively I think the Black Sun under Xizor was still vastly larger and boasted bigger coffers. I was thinking they had a supplier of stuff, so wait, what exactly (other than b1's) does the FE plan on building?

Edited August 8, 2014 by StarSquirrel

[Beniboybling]

Woops, still comparatively I think the Black Sun under Xizor was still vastly larger and boasted bigger coffers. I was thinking they had a supplier of stuff, so wait, what exactly (other than b1's) does the FE plan on building?

AT-ST/A's, Hailfire-class droid tank and Scorponek annihilator droids?